Israeli military gets revenge.

[TAKODA]

 

No they wouldn't because you have crazy a$$hole$ like ISIS and Hamas who don't want anything but jihad.

Nothing says you want peace quite like 750 rocket strikes.

 

 

Or killing 3 Israel teenagers to stir things up, so we are back to the original post ~ right ~ or is the action or reaction only rationalized with numbers?

[LukeinNE]

 

That depends on what they stand accused of.

Sure. From the OP:

 

The longer this goes on, the more I'm convinced that neither side is in the right. Both sides have dirty hands. We should cut Israel loose and let them fend for themselves. And fund themselves too. If Israel was on their own in the Middle East I'll bet they'd find a way to make peace in short order.

 

 

"Cutting Israel loose" is a bad idea for several reasons. One, we lose their ear, and they've on many occasions been restrained by US influence, and our absence in that area would make Israeli aggression more likely. Two, America's support for Israel is a strong deterrent: no major attempt on Israel's sovereignty will happen as long as the Arab states know it would mean their ruin, and Israel being abandoned by America would signal weakness. Three, this "plan" assumes that the presence of a Jewish state in the Middle East is tolerable to the Muslim states of the region, and that, to put it mildly, is a shaky assumption. Four, should Israel feel threatened conventionally, they *will* go nuclear.

 

In short, the US abandoning Israel makes war more likely, nuclear exchange more likely, and the destruction of Israel and 40% of the world's remaining Jews more likely.

[carlfense]

 

 

No they wouldn't because you have crazy a$$hole$ like ISIS and Hamas who don't want anything but jihad.

Nothing says you want peace quite like 750 rocket strikes.

 

Or killing 3 Israel teenagers to stir things up, so we are back to the original post ~ right ~ or is the action or reaction only rationalized with numbers?

 

It's basically the Hatfields and McCoys at this point. Every single strike by either side can be justified (if so willing) by pointing to hundreds or thousands of prior incidents.

[TAKODA]

 

 

 

No they wouldn't because you have crazy a$$hole$ like ISIS and Hamas who don't want anything but jihad.

Nothing says you want peace quite like 750 rocket strikes.

 

Or killing 3 Israel teenagers to stir things up, so we are back to the original post ~ right ~ or is the action or reaction only rationalized with numbers?

 

It's basically the Hatfields and McCoys at this point. Every single strike by either side can be justified (if so willing) by pointing to hundreds or thousands of prior incidents.

 

 

And that is why we are back to the original post! TaDa! and why they have been at war for as long as they have been.

 

Edit} throw in a little of what Knapp said along with LukeInNe said and this is why things continue as they are.

Edited July 10, 2014 by TAKODA

[carlfense]

"Cutting Israel loose" is a bad idea for several reasons. One, we lose their ear, and they've on many occasions been restrained by US influence, and our absence in that area would make Israeli aggression more likely. Two, America's support for Israel is a strong deterrent: no major attempt on Israel's sovereignty will happen as long as the Arab states know it would mean their ruin, and Israel being abandoned by America would signal weakness. Three, this "plan" assumes that the presence of a Jewish state in the Middle East is tolerable to the Muslim states of the region, and that, to put it mildly, is a shaky assumption. Four, should Israel feel threatened conventionally, they *will* go nuclear.

 

In short, the US abandoning Israel makes war more likely, nuclear exchange more likely, and the destruction of Israel and 40% of the world's remaining Jews more likely.

1. They tend to listen to the US when it's what they want to do anyways. In the meantime they're busy stealing our industrial and technical secrets.

 

2. #4 should be a sufficient deterrent here, no? They either fear destruction or they don't. You can only reduce that rubble so far.

 

3. I don't think that anyone is making that assumption.

 

4. See #2.

 

 

Jewish lives are no more or less valuable than Palestinian lives.

[carlfense]

And that is why we are back to the original post! TaDa! and why they have been at war for as long as they have been.

Right. So why should we offer enormous financial and political support for either side? So many in US politics act like it's good vs. evil. It isn't.

[TAKODA]

 

And that is why we are back to the original post! TaDa! and why they have been at war for as long as they have been.

Right. So why should we offer enormous financial and political support for either side? So many in US politics act like it's good vs. evil. It isn't.

 

While I get what you are saying, I think you are dismissing the fear of us letting go and seeing who survives, thus back to Knapp's post and along with that (without trying to add religion into the equation), OK, you can take it from here ~

[LukeinNE]

 

1. They tend to listen to the US when it's what they want to do anyways. In the meantime they're busy stealing our industrial and technical secrets.

 

2. #4 should be a sufficient deterrent here, no? They either fear destruction or they don't. You can only reduce that rubble so far.

 

3. I don't think that anyone is making that assumption.

 

4. See #2.

 

 

Jewish lives are no more or less valuable than Palestinian lives.

 

 

1. Everyone spies on everyone.

 

2. Not if WMD first strikes are on the table, which they assuredly would be. In that scenario, the US is currently playing a supporting piece in a chess match. Remove that piece, and the risk of making the move goes down.

 

3. The OP does: "If Israel is on their own in the Middle East, I'll bet they'll find a way to make peace in short order." You can't make peace if your death or exile are the only terms your enemies will accept.

 

4. I have seen no evidence that the existence of the Palestinian people is threatened by Israel. Conversely, the only reason the Jews of Israel still live is that they (with western support) have become very good at defending themselves.

[carlfense]

2. Not if WMD first strikes are on the table, which they assuredly would be. In that scenario, the US is currently playing a supporting piece in a chess match. Remove that piece, and the risk of making the move goes down.

What are you trying to say here?

 

3. The OP does: "If Israel is on their own in the Middle East, I'll bet they'll find a way to make peace in short order." You can't make peace if your death or exile are the only terms your enemies will accept.

I thought that he was referring to Israel/Palestine relations but he'll have to answer for himself.

 

4. I have seen no evidence that the existence of the Palestinian people is threatened by Israel. Conversely, the only reason the Jews of Israel still live is that they (with western support) have become very good at defending themselves.

I'm pretty sure that the facts show that the lives of the Palestinian people are threatened by Israel. (That cuts the other way as well.)

[JJ Husker]

 

And that is why we are back to the original post! TaDa! and why they have been at war for as long as they have been.

Right. So why should we offer enormous financial and political support for either side? So many in US politics act like it's good vs. evil. It isn't.

 

But it is sort of good vs evil. Israel is surrounded by huge numbers of batsh#t crazy Muslim fundamentalists who would like nothing better than the total annihilation of Israel. This isn't conjecture- they openly spew this crap. On the other hand, you have Israel that really wants no more than the right/ability to remain in the middle east (promised land). This is somewhat over simplified but nevertheless fairly accurate.

 

Now I'm not going to say everything Israel does is good, because it isn't-far from it. But there is a huge difference in my book between defending your right to exist (even if that defense is out of proportion to precipitating actions) and openly stating you want to destroy Israel and consistently lobbing rockets and attacks in their direction.

 

That whole area is a sh#t sandwich and unfortunately there is no walking away from it without even more dire consequences.

[TGHusker]

Besides politicians, there are many in the religious/evangelical community believe that their faith requires support for Israel - thus you also have the religious right (and perhaps left as many Jewish voters in American tend to be more left wing) who place pressure on politicians to support Israel at all costs.

 

Israel will nuke it's neighbors before it gets overrun by the same.

 

These Hatfield and McCoys go way back to the days & stories of Ismael and Isaac

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael

[carlfense]

But it is sort of good vs evil.

No. It isn't. It really isn't.

 

Israel is surrounded by huge numbers of batsh#t crazy Muslim fundamentalists who would like nothing better than the total annihilation of Israel. This isn't conjecture- they openly spew this crap. On the other hand, you have Israel that really wants no more than the right/ability to remain in the middle east (promised land). This is somewhat over simplified but nevertheless fairly accurate.

Israel's actions are just as aggressive as their neighbors.

 

That whole area is a sh#t sandwich and unfortunately there is no walking away from it without even more dire consequences.

It's f#cked regardless. There is no reasoning with religious fervor.

[strigori]

I'm sorry. I refuse to give a crap about willing human shields. Hamas intentionally picks locations with high civilian populations to hide in and strike from. To create threads and conversations like this in the West. Hamas and by extension the Palestinians have no desire for peace. They have been offered a state before, but refused as it did not include Jerusalem. Every religious nutjob wants the universal "Holy City" and as long as it exists as a city, peace over there can be forgotten about.

 

Lets run a comparison. Lets say the Mexican drug cartels start launching rockets into Texas, Arizona or California. Does anyone think our response is not going to be at least as heavy handed? Its easy to sit back when you are not the one being attacked on a daily basis.

[TAKODA]

 

 

And that is why we are back to the original post! TaDa! and why they have been at war for as long as they have been.

Right. So why should we offer enormous financial and political support for either side? So many in US politics act like it's good vs. evil. It isn't.

 

But it is sort of good vs evil. Israel is surrounded by huge numbers of batsh#t crazy Muslim fundamentalists who would like nothing better than the total annihilation of Israel. This isn't conjecture- they openly spew this crap. On the other hand, you have Israel that really wants no more than the right/ability to remain in the middle east (promised land). This is somewhat over simplified but nevertheless fairly accurate.

 

Now I'm not going to say everything Israel does is good, because it isn't-far from it. But there is a huge difference in my book between defending your right to exist (even if that defense is out of proportion to precipitating actions) and openly stating you want to destroy Israel and consistently lobbing rockets and attacks in their direction.

 

That whole area is a sh#t sandwich and unfortunately there is no walking away from it without even more dire consequences.

 

OK, now you got 2 from me today JJ.

 

I wasn't going to go down the road of religous teachings (promise land) and Muslim radicals but since you did, here we go!

[LukeinNE]

What are you trying to say here?

 

 

Israel is small enough that a nuclear or even chemical first strike could plausibly cripple the country enough to damage their ability to retaliate effectively. That is not an option at this point because of America backstopping Israel. With America out of the picture, the odds of success might rise high enough for say, Iran to try.

 

I thought that he was referring to Israel/Palestine relations but he'll have to answer for himself.

 

 

I honestly don't think it matters what he meant, as Israel is going to have to deal with the reality of a lot of very hostile neighbors, regardless of what deal they hammer out with the Palestinians.

 

I'm pretty sure that the facts show that the lives of the Palestinian people are threatened by Israel. (That cuts the other way as well.)

 

 

Israel's killed plenty of Palestinians, to be sure, but not a significant number relative to the whole. My point is that the destruction of the Jewish state (and presumably, her people) is an expressed goal of Hamas, multiple middle eastern governments, and just about every Islamist militant group/terrorist organization. We're talking about heavy-handed crackdowns that kill dozens vs an expressed desire for the genocide of 6 million people.