Finland's UBI experiment

[zoogs]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/finland-universal-basic-income-lower-stress-better-motivation-work-wages-salary-a7800741.html

 

Finland has been giving 2,000 of its citizens an unconditional income for the last five months and some are already seeing the benefits, reporting decreased stress, greater incentives to find work and more time to pursue business ideas.

Here's the kicker: this is a "Center-Right" experiment in Finland. It's opposed by Finland's largest union.

 

It's refreshing to see politics move globally in ways where these experiments are possible. Meanwhile in the U.S.A...

[BigRedBuster]

....already seeing the benefits, reporting decreased stress, greater incentives to find work and more time to pursue business ideas.

 

 

 

I understand all of these except the bolded.

[zoogs]

It's not a lot of money; by definition, it's basic. The idea is that it will afford people the space and security they need to land a job that enables higher standards of living.

 

Further, if you find work, you continue receiving the UBI.

[huKSer]

Switzerland has had this for awhile

[BigRedBuster]

I understand not being able to find a job if one isn't there.

I understand not being able to get one because of qualifications.

I understand not being able to get one because you don't know how to find a job.

 

I understand growing up in a situation where maybe you aren't given the tools or ability to find a job.

 

What I don't understand is since I have some money in my pocket now, it gives me MORE motivation to go find a job.

 

 

I remember being flat ass broke in college and without a job. It gave me one hell of a lot of motivation to go find one.

[Fru]

The money may not assist in motivation per se, but if it helps you pay for clothes for an interview, transportation, a phone so employers can reach you, a computer so you can apply for jobs since most are posted online, or an electric/wifi bill, one could easily see how having a few extra bucks would make finding a job simpler process. Akin to unemployment insurance.

[knapplc]

It is depressing (as in, the clinical version of depression) to be out of a job. I can understand how that would weigh on a person, and become debilitating. So in general I can understand the concept of a UBI providing some emotional relief. I guess we'll see how effective that really is in improving Finland's overall quality of life.

 

What I don't understand is, where is that money coming from?

[zoogs]

You aren't honestly "flat ass broke" if you are also attending a university (at least, not today). Yes, you might be accruing debt or not have money to spend; you're also attaining a college degree and have all the structure around you to go find a job.

 

There's not even a remote comparison to people who are trapped in abject poverty. Take them and make them an 18-21 year old working towards a Bachelor's in college and yeah, they'll have plenty of motivation to find some spending money. The goal, then, is to make sure people are always in such a position.

 

---

 

Criticisms & counterpoints: http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/universal-basic-income-good-idea/

 

A conservative case for UBI: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/08/why-arent-reformicons-pushing-a-guaranteed-basic-income/375600/

 

I agree with both the conservative appeal -- streamlining a hodgepodge of means-tested programs -- and the liberal criticism (it's no longer targeted at the people who need it the most). Which I think is what I find most interesting about this. There are arguments both in favor and against from each side of the spectrum. Feasibility ultimately is determined by the actual implementation.

 

I do think targeting the program on smaller scales in response to distribution makes sense as a starting point. From the Wharton link:

 

Like Cappelli, Lockwood favors an expanded EITC — he has done research on ways to improve it — but prefers to combine it with a “modest” guaranteed basic income to “actually raise wages and spur growth.” He sees it working two ways: “First, displaced workers would feel more secure and would be motivated to invest in developing skills in other industries, raising their employability and wages, rather than taking early retirement, seeking disability insurance or just cutting back on spending. Second, companies and policy makers would be less hesitant to adopt and encourage labor-saving technologies such as self-driving trucks, for example, if they were confident that workers had a safety net of support — and that would tend to encourage economic growth.”

Ultimately, we're investing in getting more people to become more productive.

[huKSer]

It is depressing (as in, the clinical version of depression) to be out of a job. I can understand how that would weigh on a person, and become debilitating. So in general I can understand the concept of a UBI providing some emotional relief. I guess we'll see how effective that really is in improving Finland's overall quality of life.

 

What I don't understand is, where is that money coming from?

From people with jobs

 

The Personal Income Tax Rate in Finland stands at 51.60 percent. Personal Income Tax Rate in Finland averaged 52.96 percent from 1995 until 2016, reaching an all time high of 62.20 percent in 1995 and a record low of 49.00 percent in 2010.

Link

[RedDenver]

I understand not being able to find a job if one isn't there.

I understand not being able to get one because of qualifications.

I understand not being able to get one because you don't know how to find a job.

 

I understand growing up in a situation where maybe you aren't given the tools or ability to find a job.

 

What I don't understand is since I have some money in my pocket now, it gives me MORE motivation to go find a job.

 

 

I remember being flat ass broke in college and without a job. It gave me one hell of a lot of motivation to go find one.

Two parts to the motivation argument as I understand it:

1) You get to keep the UBI even after you get a job, so it's more motivating than a system that takes that money away when you get a job.

2) You can wait and try to get a better job and don't have to just take the first one that comes along. The idea here is that you'll be more motivated if your chances of finding something better are higher.

[TGHusker]

How is that different than unemployment insurance here - just a larger $$ value? I was on unemployment for 6 mo 15 years ago - sucked and I understand the depression side that goes wt it.

I wonder how the system would work wt a much larger population like ours? Taxes would have to be driven much, much higher and I don't think our culture would stand for it.

[knapplc]

The population thing is interesting. Finland's population is under 5.5 million. Nine U.S. cities have a larger metropolitan area population than the entire country of Finland.

[RedDenver]

How is that different than unemployment insurance here - just a larger $$ value? I was on unemployment for 6 mo 15 years ago - sucked and I understand the depression side that goes wt it.

I wonder how the system would work wt a much larger population like ours? Taxes would have to be driven much, much higher and I don't think our culture would stand for it.

Unemployment insurance is for when you don't have a job. UBI is paid regardless of job status.

 

The amount it would cost and how that affects taxes is an open question that cases like this one in Finland are trying to get a handle on. And whether UBI scales well with population and economy is also a big question mark.

[Kiyoat Husker]

How is that different than unemployment insurance here - just a larger $$ value? I was on unemployment for 6 mo 15 years ago - sucked and I understand the depression side that goes wt it.

I wonder how the system would work wt a much larger population like ours? Taxes would have to be driven much, much higher and I don't think our culture would stand for it.

 

I think that what many here are not understanding is that a Universal Basic Income (for everyone, not just the unemployed) would replace a minimum wage requirement, as well as unemployment benefits. Employers would be free of those burdens that they currently shoulder in industries where they could pay far less if it were not for the minimum wage requirements. Higher taxes for everyone, but less regulations and financial burden for the job-creators.

 

Universal healthcare would have a similar effect.

[BigRedBuster]

So, if I'm unemployed right now, you start paying me. If I get a job, you keep paying me. If my job takes me in a direction where I end up making $1,000,000 per year, I still get paid.

 

If I never am unemployed, I never get the money.

Am I understanding that correct?