Sexism - It's a Real Thing

[zoogs]

First, I think the message here is "this behavior is wrong, please be able to see it as wrong and don't do it", not whether or not Aziz committed a crime. 

 

Second, I think you get into pretty hazy territory re: consent if the other party's interest doesn't matter to you. Let's for sake of argument put aside whether or not Aziz did everything as described and consider it as a hypothetical. It's a story of a guy who did not care whether or not she was up for it. Consent can be tricky. If you're going to be the party who keeps the encounter going, then be damn sure that you have it, continuously. You can ask! Some of the comments that struck me most about this (and similar) stories is how often a woman just goes along with it -- even sex -- because they're taking stock of the situation and wondering if it isn't going to cause more blowback or even physical danger to attempt otherwise. So yeah, go to lengths to avoid creating that perception. And please, stop it with the "I'm glad I'm not single" junk (sorry, but it is). Be glad if the single men out there learn to be more mindful than the dips#!t in this story.

 

I like how Nebfanatic puts it -- it's about culture. It's not a satisfactory one, to say the least, and it should change. 

[BigRedBuster]

2 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

I agree its not sexual assualt by a legal definition, but it is something people need to learn from because situations like this may happen more often than sexual assault and that doesn't need to happen. Being persistant can be ok, but there is a point when you start to pressure a person and that is not ok.

 

Is it OK?  I would probably error on the side of saying it's not OK also without knowing more or even being there.  Obviously we are hearing one side.  Anytime you talk about relationships and sexuality and people trying to start relationships, things can get rather emotional on either side and misinterpreted.  I would really hope my son wouldn't act like this on a first date especially after the woman clearly said no.

 

However, I fail to see how anything happened here (that we know of from the article) that would go to the extent of it should be used to try to ruin a guy's career.

[zoogs]

We have to stop interpreting speaking out about awful experiences and how we should start seeing them as wrong as an attempt to just ruin a man's career.

[BigRedBuster]

2 minutes ago, zoogs said:

First, I think the message here is "this behavior is wrong, please be able to see it as wrong and don't do it", not whether or not Aziz committed a crime. 

 

Second, I think you get into pretty hazy territory re: consent if the other party's interest doesn't matter to you. Let's for sake of argument put aside whether or not Aziz did everything as described and consider it as a hypothetical. It's a story of a guy who did not care whether or not she was up for it. Consent can be tricky. If you're going to be the party who keeps the encounter going, then be damn sure that you have it, continuously. You can ask! Some of the comments that struck me most about this (and similar) stories is how often a woman just goes along with it -- even sex -- because they're taking stock of the situation and wondering if it isn't going to cause more blowback or even physical danger to attempt otherwise. So yeah, go to lengths to avoid creating that perception. And please, stop it with the "I'm glad I'm not single" junk (sorry, but it is). Be glad if the single men out there learn to be more mindful than the dips#!t in this story.

 

I like how Nebfanatic puts it -- it's about culture. It's not a satisfactory one, to say the least, and it should change. 

 

No, I'm perfectly glad I'm not single and I'm OK saying it.

 

To the bold.....So....you are saying Aziz did something he shouldn't have done but it might not be a crime.......but........you're OK if his career gets ruined because of it.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, zoogs said:

We have to stop interpreting speaking out about awful experiences and how we should start seeing them as wrong as an attempt to just ruin a man's career.

 

But, that's potentially what is happen here.....even though a crime probably wasn't committed...or at least at this point, no evidence of it being committed has been released.

[zoogs]

There's a strong element of "sex/relationships/etc are going to be ruined now" in the response to a lot of this stuff and that needs to be called out for the garbage it is. If that's sex being ruined, then what these people refer to as "sex" was never very good.

 

I don't give a damn about Aziz's career, honestly, and I say this as a fan. He's a quality comedian and actor who built his brand on being this super woke feminist. If this brings his image irreparably crashing down, he should maybe drag himself in front of a mirror. 

 

I wouldn't be so confident to call this "not sexual assault", although I don't think the woman indicated any interest in pressing charges. It was still wrong. Very, very wrong. And that's what matters.

[BigRedBuster]

1 minute ago, zoogs said:

There's a strong element of "sex/relationships/etc are going to be ruined now" in the response to a lot of this stuff and that needs to be called out for the garbage it is. 

Oh BS...that's now what anyone is saying.

2 minutes ago, zoogs said:

I don't give a damn about Aziz's career,

 

Clearly.

[zoogs]

It's actually what a lot of people are saying. It comes from the exact same place as what you're saying, which is this idea you've repeated several times in conversations such as these -- "I don't know what I'd even do if I had to go on the dating scene again, etc, it's all so complicated now". Frankly, I think that's being unfair to yourself, as I really think you'd be nothing but a gentleman -- really.

 

It's a common response, and that shouldn't be surprising if you came up with a variant of it. The rules are changing, isn't that unfair? The response is it was always unfair, skewed heavily in one direction, so yes, relative to that the rules are less "kind" but there was a problem in viewing the priors as "good" to begin with. I think a lot of guys concerned about this aren't giving themselves enough credit.

 

A lot of the people whose opinions I agree with on these issues talk about this, and you can see such views in the responses they get. But I also think you'll see it in some of the prominent critiques of #MeToo. It's one of the common themes, along with "witch hunt/McCarthyism" and "but what if she's a fame-seeking harlot" -- really didn't think it would go under the radar, but hope it's clear now.

 

Quote

Clearly.

 

I mean, is that really the important thing here? The man has nobody but himself to blame. He'll find his way out of it or he won't.

 

Our society is a long, ugly history of placing protecting men's careers above women's degradation. No need for that to continue.

Edited January 15, 2018 by zoogs

[Nebfanatic]

Who is saying this should ruin Aziz's career? Ultimately his fans will determine that, but at the end of the day this behavior shouldn't be tolerated imo regardless of what repercussions it has on the person exhibiting said behavior. I don't think this will ruin his career but if it does so be it. He did it to himself by acting that way. Actions have consequences. Hopefully he has learned from this experience, and hopefully others will as well.

 

It's really not that difficult. Imagine someone coming onto you in that manner and you feeling uncomfortable by it. Its really not that hard to not commit sexual assault or misconduct and to be respectful of a persons wishes and boundaries. This is the type of culture we want to create. 

[BigRedBuster]

9 minutes ago, zoogs said:

The rules are changing,

This really is the only thing that pertains to my comment (I'm glad I'm not single) which, isn't a condemnation of my comment.  I honestly don't know where the rules are now (after close to 30 years of marriage) and where they are going.  My comment is perfectly normal and it doesn't make me any less sensitive to the situation.

 

12 minutes ago, zoogs said:

I mean, is that really the important thing here? The man has nobody but himself to blame. He'll find his way out of it or he won't.

 

Our society is a long, ugly history of placing protecting men's careers above women's degradation. No need for that to continue.

 

Well....pardon me if I find someone's lively hood and way of making a living in this world a little sacred and shouldn't just be brushed aside.  And...that comment from me has nothing to do with me not taking women's complaints seriously about sexual assault.

[BigRedBuster]

4 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Who is saying this should ruin Aziz's career?

Let me ask you this.  What do you think the woman's intentions were when talking to someone about this that is going to put it in an article that she knows is going to go all over the internet?

And....I'm not disagreeing with you that he was creepy and doing things are weird and should be a turnoff for most women.  What do you think should be the result of this article coming out?  What do you think the intentions are of the author?

[zoogs]

As long as you understand that brushing aside whether there is or isn't consent isn't "ruining" anything about sex worth preserving, I'm good with that. There are actually people who do feel this way, it's really incredible. Some even take it up a notch and wonder how the human race will continue.

 

Look, I think the problem is when every time a woman voices her concerns or we want to have a conversation about bad behavior it gets reflexively reframed into a conversation about protecting men. This is fundamentally a conversation about how women are routinely, casually victimized -- even by well-meaning men who seem like they above all should get it. So I have an extreme level of exasperation for the response that goes, well actually, the man is the victim here.

 

I think the intentions are actually extremely clear, which is to further this ongoing conversation we've been having as a nation about our sex culture -- from abuse and assault and harassment to just plain bad behavior. 

[Nebfanatic]

4 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Let me ask you this.  What do you think the woman's intentions were when talking to someone about this that is going to put it in an article that she knows is going to go all over the internet?

And....I'm not disagreeing with you that he was creepy and doing things are weird and should be a turnoff for most women.  What do you think should be the result of this article coming out?  What do you think the intentions are of the author?

To raise awareness about inaproppriate behavior? To hold a very famous person accountable? The article is the result of his actions. There are alot of people out there defending Aziz and whatnot alot like you are saying but that is missing the point imo. This isn't to smear Aziz Ansari, this is to shed a light on behavior many men and I'm sure plenty of women exhibit regularly. This type of thing is common, but it shouldn't be. That is what we should be talking about, not how this will affect the man being accused.

[BigRedBuster]

2 minutes ago, zoogs said:

As long as you understand that brushing aside whether there is or isn't consent isn't "ruining" anything about sex worth preserving, I'm good with that. There are actually people who do feel this way, it's really incredible. Some even take it up a notch and wonder how the human race will continue.

 

Look, I think the problem is when every time a woman voices her concerns or we want to have a conversation about bad behavior it gets reflexively reframed into a conversation about protecting men. This is fundamentally a conversation about how women are routinely, casually victimized -- even by well-meaning men who seem like they above all should get it. So I have an extreme level of exasperation for the response that goes, well actually, the man is the victim here.

 

I think the intentions are actually extremely clear, which is to further this ongoing conversation we've been having as a nation about our sex culture -- from abuse and assault and harassment to just plain bad behavior. 

 

 

So....let me get this strait.  When discussing this, we should never ever ever.....look at it and say..."Hmmm...well....I'm not sure what the rules are anymore and if I don't know what the rules are, I'm concerned that a woman is going to misinterpret something I do and all of a sudden it's going to be public and ruin my career."

 

News flash......men will always look at these things (and should) from a personal perspective and evaluate what they do or don't do and think back to personal experiences and evaluate if those experiences would pass whatever the new rules are.  That doesn't make them some form of insensitive dolt.  It's actually what they should do.  And, a man who has been married for close to 30 years saying he's glad he isn't single in this environment...because the rules are very different....doesn't make him an insensitive dolt either.

 

I have said many times on here that I am glad women feel empowered.  It's maybe a positive of having a sexual molester that thinks of sex with his daughter as President.  Something positive needs to come out of it.

BUT....saying all of that, I do believe it's important to make sure ALL involved in these situations get a fair shake and negatively affecting a man's career just because a woman complains he was creepy .....doesn't feel right to me.

[NM11046]

I just want to say how much I am appreciating the discussion here.  Nice job working thru a civil discussion fellas!

[BigRedBuster]

5 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

To hold a very famous person accountable?

Hold him accountable how?

 

5 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

There are alot of people out there defending Aziz and whatnot alot like you are saying but that is missing the point imo.

I'm not sure I have said anything defending Aziz.  Saying that I don't think his actions are sexual assault, isn't "defending him".  It's simple stating the facts as I see it.  I would classify the incident as being weird, creepy, total turnoff for most women...etc.

 

So....anytime some guy does something weird, creepy or is a turnoff, it should be made public knowledge?  

 

Seems to me that when she made it clear that she no longer wanted to be naked with him, he allowed her to put on her clothes....and she actually stuck around for a while longer.  Another 30 minutes or longer???.  Does that sound like a woman was so distraught over the incident that it should be made public???  OK...he then tried again.  He shouldn't have.  I agree with that part.  But, I don't see anything that he held her against her will or forcibly made her do anything.  She got disgusted and left.

 

He's a creep.  I agree.