Sexism - It's a Real Thing

[BigRedBuster]

4 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

If you can't see the problems in the encounter with Ansari I have nothing more to say. A little disappointed with some of the posters in here to say the least. 

I simply posted an Op-ed written by a female feminist and retweeted by another female feminist to show a different side to look at it.  I thought discussion about these situations was a good thing.  

[ColoradoHusk]

17 minutes ago, teachercd said:

Wow, great article.  I think this is a great case of what some call Buyers Remorse.

My wife has buyer's remorse that's lasted nearly 20 years.

[Nebfanatic]

21 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

I simply posted an Op-ed written by a female feminist and retweeted by another female feminist to show a different side to look at it.  I thought discussion about these situations was a good thing.  

And what I got from the article was it was the womens fault. And I am getting the same sentiment from many posters here. It disgusts me quite frankly. Why isn't it on the man to be sure she is comfortable and consenting? The article left out some major details and just places all the responsibility on the women to leave if things aren't going right. Why isn't it the mans responsibility to act in a respectful manner? Idk from that whole account there was a point where things should not have gone any further without the man wondering, "is this right?" Whatever though. Its always the womens fault right?

[NM11046]

I think this situation should increase awareness for both sexes. So Ill just put this out there again ....

 

” I agree with the fact that we need to have ongoing conversations about consent, and power with BOTH men and women.  To you parents out there - how do you talk to your children?”  

 

How does this situation, which many seem to be able to relate to and which has generated lots of discussion change things moving forward?  Do men behave differently now?  Do women?  

[zoogs]

Oh, there are quite a few -- IMO, awful -- op-eds about both this and #MeToo in general. There's the Atlantic piece, that French outlet, the recent WaPo one ('ladies, let's slooow down on this', or something like that) that was eviscerated by a response piece... Sometimes they're written by women and it's unfortunate how quickly that gets seized upon. When a lot of prevailing feminist commentary has been invisible to us (for example, if you find yourself reacting with surprise and "wow? people feel that way?" or "who says that" to big themes feminist twitter has been screaming about), it's...selective, at best, to keep sharing this stuff, invoking the authority of "female feminists" and going Hmm, interesting. These pieces do get responded to, after all.

 

Here's an op-ed I do agree with:

 

And another very good thread:

Mixed signals is not yes, btw. I read the account and cringed, repeatedly, at the choices Aziz made. Especially at the tone of his text. It's hard to buy that as wholly genuine confusion. He could have, or should have known enough to stop, but he was preoccupied the entire time with getting the deed done.

[RedDenver]

17 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

And what I got from the article was it was the womens fault. And I am getting the same sentiment from many posters here. It disgusts me quite frankly. Why isn't it on the man to be sure she is comfortable and consenting? The article left out some major details and just places all the responsibility on the women to leave if things aren't going right. Why isn't it the mans responsibility to act in a respectful manner? Idk from that whole account there was a point where things should not have gone any further without the man wondering, "is this right?" Whatever though. Its always the womens fault right?

To play devil's advocate here, I'm getting the impression from your post that it's the man's fault. Doesn't the blame lie with both parties in a situation like this where it's not clear who wanted or intended what? The man could and should have been more attentive to whether the woman really wanted what was happening. And the woman could and should have been more clear/direct in her messaging to him. I'm not even saying that they're equal in blame in this particular situation, but rather that we need to see how this happened and think about how we can proceed so it's less likely to happen again.

 

If we're going to have gender equality, then we're going to have to struggle with equality of responsibility. It's not an easy conversation to have as it's entirely shades of gray with little black/white clarity.

[Nebfanatic]

9 minutes ago, NM11046 said:

I think this situation should increase awareness for both sexes. So Ill just put this out there again ....

 

” I agree with the fact that we need to have ongoing conversations about consent, and power with BOTH men and women.  To you parents out there - how do you talk to your children?”  

 

How does this situation, which many seem to be able to relate to and which has generated lots of discussion change things moving forward?  Do men behave differently now?  Do women?  

You talk to them. Most parents don't talk to kids about this whatsoever. My mom didn't. In fact this is one of the only places I've had this discussion with anyone outside of my SO. Having the conversation is a good starting point. Honestly this should be a part of more extensive sex education. Why aren't we teaching people about sex? Politics and religion get in the way when it comes to this, but the fact of the matter is we need to be educating young people about sex rather than leaving them to figure it out on their own.

[BigRedBuster]

30 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

And what I got from the article was it was the womens fault. And I am getting the same sentiment from many posters here. It disgusts me quite frankly. Why isn't it on the man to be sure she is comfortable and consenting? The article left out some major details and just places all the responsibility on the women to leave if things aren't going right. Why isn't it the mans responsibility to act in a respectful manner? Idk from that whole account there was a point where things should not have gone any further without the man wondering, "is this right?" Whatever though. Its always the womens fault right?

 

I don't take it that way at all.

 

All men should be evaluating (and constantly should be) how they treat women, especially in a sexual type situation.

 

I also don't have a problem with women doing the same thing and that's what I took from what these two female feminists are doing.  I didn't read anything in this that says Aziz was somehow a perfect gentleman and is without fault.

 

But, I also don't have a problem with looking at it from the female side to as to what she could have done to improve the situation.

[zoogs]

Uh, it's "the woman's fault" to the extent that if women knew all the strategies and exits and could execute them flawlessly all the time, they could avoid being _____ed. That this wasn't one of  the worse fill-in-the-blank outcomes doesn't change that. 

 

The scenario is one where there is a heavy, gendered power imbalance. "Balance" is always an appeal but it's a false one in response to this.

[BigRedBuster]

17 minutes ago, zoogs said:

Oh, there are quite a few -- IMO, awful -- op-eds about both this and #MeToo in general. There's the Atlantic piece, that French outlet, the recent WaPo one ('ladies, let's slooow down on this', or something like that) that was eviscerated by a response piece... Sometimes they're written by women and it's unfortunate how quickly that gets seized upon. When a lot of prevailing feminist commentary has been invisible to us (for example, if you find yourself reacting with surprise and "wow? people feel that way?" or "who says that" to big themes feminist twitter has been screaming about), it's...selective, at best, to keep sharing this stuff, invoking the authority of "female feminists" and going Hmm, interesting. These pieces do get responded to, after all.

 

Here's an op-ed I do agree with:

 

And another very good thread:

Mixed signals is not yes, btw. I read the account and cringed, repeatedly, at the choices Aziz made. Especially at the tone of his text. It's hard to buy that as wholly genuine confusion. He could have, or should have known enough to stop, but he was preoccupied the entire time with getting the deed done.

So....we are supposed to listen to some feminists in this discussion but not all feminists.  Some women but not all women.

[Landlord]

I typed out something really long and then deleted it because I knew how it wouldn't be heard in the way it was intended.

 

 

At the end of the day, zoogs' linked columns and tweets I do agree with a lot. Reality is - we do not teach consent well. Our actions betray our definitions of it, and our true beliefs about it fall short of what we claim it to be.

[BigRedBuster]

7 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

You talk to them. Most parents don't talk to kids about this whatsoever. My mom didn't. In fact this is one of the only places I've had this discussion with anyone outside of my SO. Having the conversation is a good starting point. Honestly this should be a part of more extensive sex education. Why aren't we teaching people about sex? Politics and religion get in the way when it comes to this, but the fact of the matter is we need to be educating young people about sex rather than leaving them to figure it out on their own.

 

I'm pretty sure we teach sex ed in schools.

[Nebfanatic]

4 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

To play devil's advocate here, I'm getting the impression from your post that it's the man's fault. Doesn't the blame lie with both parties in a situation like this where it's not clear who wanted or intended what? The man could and should have been more attentive to whether the woman really wanted what was happening. And the woman could and should have been more clear/direct in her messaging to him. I'm not even saying that they're equal in blame in this particular situation, but rather that we need to see how this happened and think about how we can proceed so it's less likely to happen again.

 

If we're going to have gender equality, then we're going to have to struggle with equality of responsibility. It's not an easy conversation to have as it's entirely shades of gray with little black/white clarity.

While I somewhat agree with what you are saying, to me reading the full account she expressed multiple times to various degrees of clarity that she did not want to have sex. No one wants to just come out and tell someone they like "I don't want to have sex with you" so you try and signal that to them indirectly. She said "woah wait a minute" when he went to get a condom. She stopped physically responding and kissing back. She said "maybe next time" when he asked where she wanted to have sex. She was running away from him and trying to keep her distance. Yet Aziz keeps going. At some point yes you would think she should say enough is enough but it isn't that easy is it? She is in his environment and already uncomfortable. That isn't an easy environment to speak your mind. Idk she tried and he didn't care really to acknowlege that. Yes she could have tried harder and I suppose she put herself in that situation but aren't these the same tired excuses we make? 

[Landlord]

Just now, BigRedBuster said:

 

I'm pretty sure we teach sex ed in schools.

 

 

Sex ed doesn't teach anything about the underlying psychology of sex - how to respect yourself, how to enjoy it, how to feel comfortable with you body. It teaches anatomy and physics. 

[Nebfanatic]

1 minute ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

I'm pretty sure we teach sex ed in schools.

Absinence plus in mississippi which means dont have sex until your married kids