Sexism - It's a Real Thing

[zoogs]

Quote

men will always look at these things (and should) from a personal perspective and evaluate what they do or don't do and think back to personal experiences and evaluate if those experiences would pass whatever the new rules are.  

 

This is exactly what I'm saying people should do. And the answer should not be "hey, there's nothing wrong with this picture. It's not a crime, now is it?" -- just because to say otherwise would mean some real soul-searching about those personal experiences. That's my focus in this conversation. What's really on trial here is whether that stuff, as presented, was that wrong. It is.

 

I think I'd say I'm really glad for people, both women and men, who are coming into the dating age in this environment as compared to before. 

 

 

[BigRedBuster]

1 minute ago, zoogs said:

"hey, there's nothing wrong with this picture. It's not a crime, now is it?"

 

 

Not one thing I have said implies this.

 

 

[ColoradoHusk]

[zoogs]

Quote

Seems to me that when she made it clear that she no longer wanted to be naked with him, he allowed her to put on her clothes....and she actually stuck around for a while longer. Another 30 minutes or longer???. Does that sound like a woman was so distraught over the incident that it should be made public???

 

Wow, OK, man. I think what we really have to take from this story -- and others like it! -- is just how difficult it can be to find an out, even if you want to. Speaking of common themes, "why didn't she leave?" is another one. She did leave, eventually. She also trusted him, and it takes a while I think for someone to really process just how thoroughly wrong that was. Numerous times he reassured her and made her feel safe again, before returning to the sex stuff. I think there's a strong desire not to come off as cold, rude, or standoffish -- cultural programming, and very unfortunate. I think at some point you just try to think of a way to safely get yourself out of there. A few people online have said it better than I could. I think what I find most convincing about it all is how so many women see this as heartbreakingly relatable. It makes me wonder why we'd continue to ask questions as if they had no answer.

 

 

So, yeah. Understand that she can still be distraught in this scenario.

 

To shift the focus again to what I feel is a more appropriate place, the question really ought to be why didn't he stop? A phrase that's coming up a lot here is "enthusiastic consent". Really like that term. 

[BigRedBuster]

4 minutes ago, zoogs said:

the question really ought to be why didn't he stop?

I have no problem asking this question and it's very appropriate.  That's what makes him creepy, weird and a turnoff.

[Nebfanatic]

I think another main point we are straying away from is the problem of expecting sex with little to no communication. This leads to a wide range of problematic incidents, from stories like this to much worse. Talking to someone can not only help you make a firm determination on consent, but alot can be learned from a conversation that can make things much more comfortable and enjoyable. People think it's so taboo to have an open conversation about these things, but you will be surprised to find most people find it to be a stimulating topic of discussion. Communication is key! 

Edited January 15, 2018 by Nebfanatic

[zoogs]

+1, to you both!

 

To respond to "Nothing I have said implies this"...first, I think the larger conversation is more important. I'm far more interested in seeing that furthered than nailing individuals to bad opinions. There are these common refrains and we should discuss why they're bad, what place they come from and if they don't reflect your opinions, great. Second, I think priorities matter. There are plenty of folks whose primary or only response to this is, well, is that really a crime. Should he be 'killed' over it. This is missing the boat in a large way. The number of women who can come out now and talk about how they struggled to navigate these situations they thought were safe, etc. It's eye-opening and valuable. There's a lot of perspective that really was never obvious to me, and now there's a lot more visibility to the issue. That's wonderful.

[BigRedBuster]

Here is something totally different from the existing discussion that I'm finding interesting.

 

What we are talking about here is a guy being a gentleman.  Back when my parents were raised, sure there were men who were jerks back then too, but it was much more publicly expected that a man was going to be a gentleman and treat a woman with a certain level of respect.  You opened the door for them, you protected them when needed and you say certain things to them or treat them a certain way....because you were supposed to treat them like a lady.  I'm not naive enough to think there wasn't premarital sex or even sex on the first date.  But....it was much more common thought that you didn't even expect a kiss on a "first date".  At least that was what society tried to teach boys on how to treat a woman.

 

Then came the 60s, 70s, 80s....etc.  Many of those norms were broken down and made out to be "old fashion" or "not cool".  For some reason, society threw away in many ways...treating a woman like a lady.

 

That was a confusing time also because many of the "treating a woman like a lady" also included one hell of a lot of sexist thoughts too as to what a woman should be like.

 

Now, I feel like there is somehow a reckoning happening in the whole female/male relationship.

 

The same media that is condemning actions by men like this has also fostered wrong messages to boys growing up as to what women want or how they should be treated.  How many musicians or actors (both male and female) have produced music or movies that promote the thought in boy's minds that this is OK or how women want to be treated?

 

Jimmie Kimmel is a prime example.  He acts all righteous now about these things....meanwhile, he used to do a show where there was a weekly feature of "girls in bikinis jumping on trampolines"....really?

 

And we are appalled by a comedian that wanted to have sex with a woman who consensually got naked with him in his apartment?

 

It's perfectly normal and understandable that people are confused as to what is expected.

Edited January 15, 2018 by BigRedBuster

[NM11046]

Think it's probably fair to share Aziz' response to the allegations:

 

Quote

In September of last year, I met a woman at a party. We exchanged numbers. We texted back and forth and eventually went on a date. We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual.

 

The next day, I got a text from her saying that although ‘it may have seemed okay,’ upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned. I took her words to heart and responded privately after taking the time to process what she had said.

 

I continue to support the movement that is happening in our culture. It is necessary and long overdue.

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by NM11046

[Landlord]

There's a lot of false dichotomies being made here, I think.

 

 

What he's guilty of is being an inconsiderate creep in the middle of a power dynamic. He's not guilty of sexual assault, I guess maybe you could make an argument for sexual harassment? Or, just guilty of being a horny self-centered ass who couldn't take a hint. But if it's the case that it's sexual harassment, then 99% of people in America, men or women or anything else, have committed and/or been the victim of sexual harassment. Why didn't he stop? Well, he did stop. So the question is why didn't he stop sooner? Who can answer that? He was out of line and selfish and manipulative, to be sure. That's bad behavior that we'd all love to be in the past for all of humankind. But when did we stop expecting humans to be selfish and manipulative by default? It's kind of our thing. What he did isn't terribly different in nature than something like a used car salesman trying to push you into a sale. It's just the stakes and the history of oppression are higher.

 

Does anyone else ever occasionally feel like social justice causes might just hold up quote unquote enemies of the cause to an unrealistically high standard of behavior that no normal human beings actually consistently fulfill? 

 

It is on him, and not her, given that the reported account is entirely accurate, that this girl felt unsafe and went home crying. But a cultural crusade to boycott/protest/blacklist him in his career would be a disproportionately dramatic response given the severity of what he actually did. There's no need to turn this into solely listening to and respecting women vs protecting men as some kind of battle of diametrically opposed absolutes, when all people want in the middle of a powerful and needed cultural shift is to maintain a healthy perspective. 

 

 

 

Side note, I'm not complaining about this at all, but in a still largely patriarchal culture, this does make dating/sex difficult, because we all in some sense want to have our cake and eat it too. There's way too many contexts where being aggressive and strong as a male is glorified and desired, even from women. I say this as someone who has always internally had this battle and obsession with obtaining consent since far before #MeToo was a thing. For example, I'm always terrified to try and kiss a girl on a date. 1st, 2nd, 3rd date, doesn't matter, I get really uncomfortable trying it without knowing it's welcome. You know how many girls (assuming they're not already turned off by you) don't find it attractive to ask for permission to kiss them? In my experience, almost all of them. I've had a large handful of what I thought were otherwise really good dates and really good chemistry disappear out the window because of being perceived as not alpha enough, too timid, etc., in my treating seriously the idea of consent. That sucks when it happens. But imagine the horror of myself and the woman if I try to to be more assertive only to find out it wasn't welcome or wanted? 

 

I guess what I'm saying in all of that is, it frustrates me that we aren't talking about all the neutral/grey areas of romantic/sexual exchanges and how those can be completely different depending solely on how attracted someone is to the possible perpetrator. I'm sad to say I've found myself in situations that, had all of the actions from both parties remained the same, but the woman's perception was different, I could have ended up in a real s#!tstorm. That's on me, but I think it's also simultaneously on how we don't talk about sex enough, or equip people to handle it well at all, or explain how there is a huge grey area that is messy to navigate through.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Landlord

[teachercd]

7 minutes ago, Landlord said:

There's a lot of false dichotomies being made here, I think.

 

 

What he's guilty of is being an inconsiderate creep in the middle of a power dynamic. He's not guilty of sexual assault, I guess maybe you could make an argument for sexual harassment? Or, just guilty of being a horny self-centered ass who couldn't take a hint. But if it's the case that it's sexual harassment, then 99% of people in America, men or women or anything else, have committed and/or been the victim of sexual harassment. Why didn't he stop? Well, he did stop. So the question is why didn't he stop sooner? Who can answer that? He was out of line and selfish and manipulative, to be sure. That's bad behavior that we'd all love to be in the past. But when did we stop expecting humans to be selfish and manipulative by default? It's kind of our thing. 

 

Does anyone else ever occasionally feel like social justice causes might just hold up quote unquote enemies of the cause to an unrealistically high standard of behavior that no normal human beings actually consistently fulfill? 

 

It is on him, and not her, given that the reported account is entirely accurate, that this girl felt unsafe and went home crying. But a cultural crusade to boycott/protest/blacklist him in his career would be a disproportionately dramatic response given the severity of what he actually did. There's no need to turn this into solely listening to and respecting women vs protecting men as some kind of battle of diametrically opposed absolutes, when all people want in the middle of a powerful and needed cultural shift is to maintain a healthy perspective. 

 

 

 

Side note, I'm not complaining about this at all, but in a still largely patriarchal culture, this does make dating/sex difficult. I say this as someone who has always internally had this battle and obsession with obtaining consent since far before #MeToo was a thing. For example, I'm always terrified to try and kiss a girl on a date. 1st, 2nd, 3rd date, doesn't matter, I get really uncomfortable trying it without knowing it's welcome. You know how many girls (assuming they're not already turned off by you) don't find it attractive to ask for permission to kiss them? In my experience, almost all of them. I've had a large handful of what I thought were otherwise really good dates and really good chemistry disappear out the window because of being perceived as not alpha enough, too timid, etc., in my treating seriously the idea of consent. That sucks when it happens. But imagine the horror of myself and the woman if I try to to be more assertive only to find out it wasn't welcome or wanted? 

 

I guess what I'm saying in all of that is, it frustrates me that we aren't talking about all the neutral/grey areas of romantic/sexual exchanges and how those can be completely different depending solely on how attracted someone is to the possible perpetrator. I'm sad to say I've found myself in situations that, had all of the actions from both parties remained the same, but the woman's perception was different, I could have ended up in a real s#!tstorm. That's on me, but I think it's also simultaneously on how we don't talk about sex enough, or equip people to handle it well at all, or explain how there is a huge grey area that is messy to navigate through.

This is so true...almost NO girl wants the guy to wait until the end of the date, walk them to the door, everything is super uncomfortable and then the guy goes "Would it be okay if I kissed you?"  If anything, most girls (and guys) want the kiss to happen "spontaneously" during the date.  Landlord is right, guys don't like it and most girls hate it.

 

No girl/guy wants to go through a checklist of permissions.  

1.  Can I hold you hand?

2.  Can I hug you?

3.  Can I kiss you?

4.  Can I take off your top?

 

and on and on.  

 

LL's post is spot on, it really is.  

 

When BRB mentions that he is glad he isn't single today this is what he means.  He means that it sounds like a cluster f#*k and he is right.  

Edited January 15, 2018 by teachercd

[Nebfanatic]

12 minutes ago, Landlord said:

There's a lot of false dichotomies being made here, I think.

 

 

What he's guilty of is being an inconsiderate creep in the middle of a power dynamic. He's not guilty of sexual assault, I guess maybe you could make an argument for sexual harassment? Or, just guilty of being a horny self-centered ass who couldn't take a hint. But if it's the case that it's sexual harassment, then 99% of people in America, men or women or anything else, have committed and/or been the victim of sexual harassment. Why didn't he stop? Well, he did stop. So the question is why didn't he stop sooner? Who can answer that? He was out of line and selfish and manipulative, to be sure. That's bad behavior that we'd all love to be in the past. But when did we stop expecting humans to be selfish and manipulative by default? It's kind of our thing. 

 

Does anyone else ever occasionally feel like social justice causes might just hold up quote unquote enemies of the cause to an unrealistically high standard of behavior that no normal human beings actually consistently fulfill? 

 

It is on him, and not her, given that the reported account is entirely accurate, that this girl felt unsafe and went home crying. But a cultural crusade to boycott/protest/blacklist him in his career would be a disproportionately dramatic response given the severity of what he actually did. There's no need to turn this into solely listening to and respecting women vs protecting men as some kind of battle of diametrically opposed absolutes, when all people want in the middle of a powerful and needed cultural shift is to maintain a healthy perspective. 

 

 

 

Side note, I'm not complaining about this at all, but in a still largely patriarchal culture, this does make dating/sex difficult. I say this as someone who has always internally had this battle and obsession with obtaining consent since far before #MeToo was a thing. For example, I'm always terrified to try and kiss a girl on a date. 1st, 2nd, 3rd date, doesn't matter, I get really uncomfortable trying it without knowing it's welcome. You know how many girls (assuming they're not already turned off by you) don't find it attractive to ask for permission to kiss them? In my experience, almost all of them. I've had a large handful of what I thought were otherwise really good dates and really good chemistry disappear out the window because of being perceived as not alpha enough, too timid, etc., in my treating seriously the idea of consent. That sucks when it happens. But imagine the horror of myself and the woman if I try to to be more assertive only to find out it wasn't welcome or wanted? 

 

I guess what I'm saying in all of that is, it frustrates me that we aren't talking about all the neutral/grey areas of romantic/sexual exchanges and how those can be completely different depending solely on how attracted someone is to the possible perpetrator. I'm sad to say I've found myself in situations that, had all of the actions from both parties remained the same, but the woman's perception was different, I could have ended up in a real s#!tstorm. That's on me, but I think it's also simultaneously on how we don't talk about sex enough, or equip people to handle it well at all, or explain how there is a huge grey area that is messy to navigate through.

Who is arguing for this? Who is claiming Aziz is a terrible person and sexual predator? We are simply pointing out inappropriate behavior by a 34 year old man. He should be called out on such behavior and we all as a society should learn this isn't acceptable. Aziz expected sex from the beginning according to the account and was touching her breasts within moments of entering the apartment. On a first date that is a little forward without having some sort of conversation first don't you think? It seems to me Ansari just assumed this girl was consenting and was doing whatever he wanted. 

 

You must not be a very smooth talker. You can have conversations and get consent verbally and turn someone on at the same time. You can be assertive and respectful at the same time. It seems to me alot of people are inconvienced by the changing status quo so they try to find reasons why simple communication and respect isn't reasonable.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Nebfanatic

[teachercd]

Seems like you didn't need to call out Landlord for no reason.  It isn't about being a "smooth talker" or not.

[Landlord]

4 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Who is arguing for this? Who is claiming Aziz is a terrible person and sexual predator? 

 

You must not be a very smooth talker. 

 

 

Literally tens or hundreds of thousands of outraged people on twitter/facebook/the blog-o-sphere.

 

 

 

It is certainly not true that I am a smooth talker, you've got me completely figured out in that

[teachercd]

Anyone else hear "smooth talker" and think of Jack Tripper and Larry at the Regal Beagle?