Sexism - It's a Real Thing

[Moiraine]

1 hour ago, Nebfanatic said:

 

“He said something along the lines of, ‘How about you hop up and take a seat?’” Within moments, he was kissing her. “In a second, his hand was on my breast.” Then he was undressing her, then he undressed himself. She remembers feeling uncomfortable at how quickly things escalated.

When Ansari told her he was going to grab a condom within minutes of their first kiss, Grace voiced her hesitation explicitly. “I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’”  

 

This is the first indication she wasn't comfortable so then he decides to go down on her instead

 

But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a f'ing game.”

 

None of this sounds too consenual

 

 

She says that most of her discomfort was expressed "in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points. I stopped moving my lips and turned cold. I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn’t interested. I don’t think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored."

 

or this 

 

Eventually, Ansari then tried to bring up sex, though the woman turned him down and expressed that she didn't want to do anything sexual tonight. She says that he initially listened to her, but then resumed his previous actions. After Ansari allegedly proposed they put their clothes back on and watch TV, he "kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants," which prompted the woman to leave the apartment. 

 

 

Here she made it known she was not consenting, yet he continues anyway. I really can't believe everyone wants to rationalize his actions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your font is giant.

 

I don't think people are really rationalizing. He had every reason to believe she wanted sex. Having to chase her didn't signal that she didn't want it, because that can also be a game. Very often it is. And that part was after the oral sex. From the time they put their clothes on to after was when he was an a-hole, but it wasn't assault imo.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Moiraine

[Nebfanatic]

11 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

I agree with all of this, except one thing. There is no 'normalizing' of this behavior. This behavior has been normal for a long, long time. How do we un-normalize it without condemnation for...everybody? Right or wrong, men will continue to feel more and more threatened if people's reactions of criticism/condemnation is disproportionate or lacking perspective. We need to keep tipping the scales, but we've also got to find a way to educate all parties in a way that doesn't feel like a legitimate threat.

 

At this point, the only huge difference between most men in this thread and Aziz Ansari is that we aren't famous. That doesn't make anything he did okay, at all. It's on us. But we, collectively, need to, in cases like this one (not like Weinstein and Kevin Spacey and others, obviously), not go monster hunting but be looking in the collective mirror.

Who in this thread is condemning Aziz in this manner? I never said he should be punished or anything like that. I said he probably isn't a bad guy as long as he learns from this situation which it sounds like he is. Im talking about his behavior and how it isn't acceptable yet i have seen floods of tweets that say his actions are ok. People in this thread are dismissive of it. Why is that? Because it is a thing that sounds like something alot of people have done. These people need to realize what they did in the past that may have been similar, may have been wrong! Its hard to hear but sometimes the truth can be difficult. But if you aren't confronted with the truth the same things will continue to happen.

 

I understand that over zealousness in issues like this can result in people shutting down and not being receptive to changing. People feel attacked as you were saying. So I do see the need to appropriatley characterize events and understand there are different degrees to it. I see this as a mistake that should be learned from. Its good Ansari was called out on his inappropriate behavior but as long as there isn't a pattern of that behavior i see no reason to extend his social punishment beyond that. But to me its good this story went public in this time to understand where this culture stems from. 

[Moiraine]

4 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Who in this thread is condemning Aziz in this manner? I never said he should be punished or anything like that. I said he probably isn't a bad guy as long as he learns from this situation which it sounds like he is. Im talking about his behavior and how it isn't acceptable yet i have seen floods of tweets that say his actions are ok. People in this thread are dismissive of it. Why is that? Because it is a thing that sounds like something alot of people have done. These people need to realize what they did in the past that may have been similar, may have been wrong! Its hard to hear but sometimes the truth can be difficult. But if you aren't confronted with the truth the same things will continue to happen.

 

I understand that over zealousness in issues like this can result in people shutting down and not being receptive to changing. People feel attacked as you were saying. So I do see the need to appropriatley characterize events and understand there are different degrees to it. I see this as a mistake that should be learned from. Its good Ansari was called out on his inappropriate behavior but as long as there isn't a pattern of that behavior i see no reason to extend his social punishment beyond that. But to me its good this story went public in this time to understand where this culture stems from. 

 

 

I think what people are dismissive of is its labeling as sexual assault.

[Nebfanatic]

9 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

 

 

Your font is giant.

 

I don't think people are really rationalizing. He had every reason to believe she wanted sex. Having to chase her didn't signal that she didn't want it, because that can also be a game. Very often it is. And that part was after the oral sex. From the time they put their clothes on to after was when he was an a-hole, but it wasn't assault imo.

Idk from her account it doesn't sound that way to me. Never said it was assualt. But the fact of the matter is he had the expectation of sex from the get go and she did not and that is where the issues start. Its a problem many men have that needs to be addressed. Sex should not be expected when you barely know someone. She never said she wanted to have sex and its obvious she didn't want to have sex. Im sorry but if someone was acting like she said she was in her account maybe i would ask if she even wanted to be doing this. 

Just now, Moiraine said:

 

 

I think what people are dismissive of is its labeling as sexual assault.

And i never once labeled it as sexual assualt either.

[Nebfanatic]

7 hours ago, Nebfanatic said:

Also once they agreed to put their clothes back on, 10 minutes later Aziz was trying to get her undressed again. That is a problem. I wouldn't say this is full on sexual assualt, and I don't think Aziz is a bad person if he can learn from his mistakes, but this type of behavior lends itself to a sense of entitlement that can lead to worse behavior. Its not the type of culture we want to create. If her account is mostly accurate I know I wouldn't have continued once she became lifeless and stopped responding physically. It would have felt wrong because it is wrong in my view. 

 

7 hours ago, Nebfanatic said:

I agree its not sexual assualt by a legal definition, but it is something people need to learn from because situations like this may happen more often than sexual assault and that doesn't need to happen. Being persistant can be ok, but there is a point when you start to pressure a person and that is not ok.

 

[Landlord]

22 minutes ago, Nebfanatic said:

Idk from her account it doesn't sound that way to me. Never said it was assualt. But the fact of the matter is he had the expectation of sex from the get go and she did not and that is where the issues start. Its a problem many men have that needs to be addressed. Sex should not be expected when you barely know someone. She never said she wanted to have sex and its obvious she didn't want to have sex. Im sorry but if someone was acting like she said she was in her account maybe i would ask if she even wanted to be doing this. 

And i never once labeled it as sexual assualt either.

 

 

I agree with all of this as well.

 

However, I would add that if we are going to start changing this narrative, it's got to be multi-faceted. We need to be creating a world where women feel comfortable and enabled to clearly and confidently say, "no", while we also need to teach men that a lack of "no" and ambiguous non-communication is not consent. We don't actually teach people this, because we don't actually act like it. What is the percentage of times anyone in here has had sex (not just with a stranger, including every single time with a spouse or a signficant other) where someone says, "Do you want to have sex?", and the other person says, "Yes, I do." That just is not something that happens with any amount of regularity. But that is what the legal definition of consent points towards. 

 

 

Some alternative takes that I don't necessarily fully endorse but that I think are helpful to at least consider:

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/01/the-humiliation-of-aziz-ansari/550541/

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/opinion/aziz-ansari-babe-sexual-harassment.html

[BigRedBuster]

My discussion as to if this is sexual assault is from her claiming it is. 

 

There are people who will say you shouldn’t question a woman on this.

 

Well, if she were to press charges and I’m on the jury, right now I would have to say “not guilty.” 

[BigRedBuster]

2 minutes ago, Landlord said:

What is the percentage of times anyone in here has had sex (not just with a stranger, including every single time with a spouse or a signficant other) where someone says, "Do you want to have sex?", and the other person says, "Yes, I do." That just is not something that happens with any amount of regularity.

I’m married and this sounds totally foreign to me. 

[Moiraine]

11 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

My discussion as to if this is sexual assault is from her claiming it is. 

 

There are people who will say you shouldn’t question a woman on this.

 

Well, if she were to press charges and I’m on the jury, right now I would have to say “not guilty.” 

 

 

People who do question anyone on sexual assault are almost always in the wrong. But usually it's a situation where the person (usually a woman because it usually happens to women) is claiming something happened and the man says it didn't happen. And then people ask the typical questions of "If it really happened, why didn't you say anything sooner?" "why did you dress that way?" etc. Or the woman is describing sexual assault and it's known to have happened.

 

In this case it is definitely not anything that Aziz could be charged with even if it's all true, imho. By definition, it's not sexual assault.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Moiraine

[zoogs]

V good thread: https://twitter.com/ElizabethGChang/status/953019126825484289

 

 

 

[Landlord]

That is a very good thread. I think we can really get somewhere if we can hold that kind of tension and nuance. 

 

We do a piss poor job teaching about consent, and we do an even worse job modeling it and living it out. We also haven't created a culture that easily allows for women to confidently exercise their own sexual agency. It is, as Elizabeth puts it, something very worth writing about. 

 

Sexism isn't the only culprit of this ugly cocktail of bad reflections of society. What else plays a part? Certainly porn has something to do with it. Hookup culture as well? The degradation of clear communication mediums? 

[NM11046]

9 hours ago, Nebfanatic said:

 

 

So to poke the bear here - after the incident she wrote to him (after he reached out to thank her for the evening) and said she hadn't been comfortable and that it wasn't a fun night for her.  HE APOLOGIZED, said he thought everything had been consensual and was horrified that he'd made her feel that way.

 

Why did she feel the need to take her story to a 3rd rate internet site to be published?  I'm guessing People, WaPo, NYT etc chose to not publish this story - why do you think that is?  They've been critical in the recent call outs of men in power being abusers.

 

I don't disagree that if he made her uncomfortable that was wrong.  But at a min he was getting mixed signals.  He apologized which is more than most men would do.  Perhaps the outcome is that more men listen, I don't know.  Many men who read this will simply look at the fact that he had a fan naked in his home and wasn't able to score, that he doesnt' have the right moves to get it done.  And others will look to it as a watch out for their own behavior moving forward.  After reading the article in full (and if you haven't you should do so - instead of just reading other's perspectives) I felt like it was just a really terrible, akward date.  One that would just get laughs and sympathy at brunch from friends the next day and be forgotten about.

 

Edit:  and net net I agree with the fact that we need to have ongoing conversations about consent, and power with BOTH men and women.  To you parents out there - how do you talk to your children?

Edited January 16, 2018 by NM11046

[BigRedBuster]

 

[teachercd]

Wow, great article.  I think this is a great case of what some call Buyers Remorse.

[Nebfanatic]

If you can't see the problems in the encounter with Ansari I have nothing more to say. A little disappointed with some of the posters in here to say the least.