30-50 Feral Hogs Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: You cherry picked one thing out of and constructed a strawman you could attack instead of the overall argument. I'm not going to research to defend a strawman argument. Or you can't find one organized religion website to back up your point Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: You cherry picked one thing out of and constructed a strawman you could attack instead of the overall argument. I'm not going to research to defend a strawman argument. no, you pretty much stated "facts" that you couldn't back up and people questioned you on it.....and you can't back it up. Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: But nobody in their right mind would ever say that politics are free of religion nor that religion is free of politics (in this country). A church may not tell you how to vote...but the minute they found out you voted in support of something they deem morally reprehensible...you'd definitely get some kind of push back. Example here would be Catholics for Choice...a number of the bishops associated with this movement are publicly denounced and the Roman Catholic church states that it causes harm to Catholics and undermines the Church's authority. That's a pretty big rejection if you ask me. In the 1990's a bishop in Lincoln said that it would be automatic excommunication if someone was found to be in the above organization. That's a huge push toward forcing people align their beliefs toward how the church thinks and not how their conscience makes them feel. So do these people vote in line with church teachings or are they allowed to believe what they want to believe and vote accordingly? Can they express their beliefs without fear of repercussions? So....no official Catholic church websites that proclaim you are going to be ex communicated if you vote for a Democrat? Ok...I'll take this as you're back tracking on your previous statements. 6 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: Not really, I stated it was my opinion early on. Go back and read. Dude....you literally said that all...excuse me....90% of all churches are political and tell you how to vote. That simply is not true. That is stating a fact that is not true. 4 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: Cathloics are known to be prolife... That doesn't make the Catholic church political. Link to comment
Landlord Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: Cathloics are known to be prolife...it doesn't require me to go out and look at a website to know...it's a core tenant of the belief. Evangelicals are known to be against gay marriage...once again, this isn't something that isn't known. Catholic individuals and the Catholic Church are not the same thing. Evangelical people and Evangelicalism are not the same thing. You've changed the meaning of your claim like a half dozen times already. 1 Link to comment
Landlord Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: Nice ambiguity logical fallacy Landlord. I'm not the one with the logical fallacy or the ambiguity. Look at how all over the map you are. 14 hours ago, BlitzFirst said: Not really certain any good churches exist...all of them involve themselves with politics which is anti-christian. You start off talking about churches. As actual recognized institutions, presumably in the United States. These CHURCHES (not individual people) are all bad and involve themselves with politics, allegedly. 5 hours ago, BlitzFirst said: But I'd say it's well over 90% just considering gay marriage and abortion alone. Okay so now it's not all, but 90% of institutional churches are bad, because they are involved with politics. 5 hours ago, BlitzFirst said: Oh no, it's a yes. Taking into account that many churches involve themselves in pro life and gay marriage issues and are encouraged nationwide to go the polls to vote accordingly. It's not a small movement...it's a major one across multiple denominations. Still talking about churches, but now you bring in a claim that probably 90% of these churches are telling their congregants and parishioners and members to vote a certain way. Well, you've had plenty of people in here tell you that no such thing has ever happened to them in their faith tradition. 5 hours ago, BlitzFirst said: All sarcasm aside, I was using statistics that say 64% of America is either Catholic or Evangelical...and I know both of these encourage their membership to be pro-life and vote accordingly. Now you're starting to talk about church institutions and individuals, but again make the claim that evangelical churches and catholic churches are telling their members how to vote. That's not true in....a lot of people's wide ranging experience. 4 hours ago, BlitzFirst said: I'm not talking about your personal opinion on the matter nor that of local congregations. I'm talking about the policies of the denomination and the 'official' stance which is where churches that align under the organization are supposed to take their cues from. Okay so now you're not talking about churches as far as like First Pres Lincoln or Christ Community Church in Omaha but you're talking about THE Catholic church and THE lutheran church, etc. So the claim now is that, for example, the catholic church is telling people how to vote. People are asking you to provide evidence of that, and you haven't. 4 hours ago, BlitzFirst said: It's true that both Catholics and Evangelicals take stances against abortion as an issue. This doesn't matter, because top down church institutions aren't the same thing as individual members. 4 hours ago, BlitzFirst said: Once again, I'm not talking about your personal opinion nor that of your local congregation. I'm speaking of the stance by organizations at the top (Catholic Church, Evangelical church) and how churches that align themselves with those should fall in line and listen. Okay, can we get an official stance of the catholic church? And while you're at it, evidence that THE catholic church is telling catholics how to vote? You've made both of these claims a bunch and the majority disagree with them and don't believe you. I already know you can't give an official stance for evangelicalism because evangelicalism is decentralized and not run by a top organization. 1 1 Link to comment
30-50 Feral Hogs Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 I've been a Catholic for quite a while now. I've attended many masses in many churches. I have witnessed 1 priest give a homily in which he tried to direct people how to vote. He went on and on about abortion and gay marriage. He's now in prison for child molestation. 1 Link to comment
Landlord Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: My official stance is that politics and religion would be better completely separate. That's a fine stance to have. You haven't once in this whole interaction said that, or just that. You've said all sorts of things around it thematically but you've been very unclear. 4 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: Churches host voting registration drives, they open their doors as voting sites on elections, they host patriotic events, and encourage patriotism. Some do. Many do not, and as time goes on, less and less. 4 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: I gave examples of Evangelicals and Catholics because they make up almost 65% of Christians in the US and they both align on prolife and against gay marriage According to pewresearch, 70% of Catholics, 66% of mainline protestants, and 36% of evangelical protestants think homosexuality should be accepted. Also according to pewresearch, 56% of catholics, 60% of mainline protestants, and 20% of evangelical protestants think abortion should be legal in most/all cases. So a slice of two denominations/traditions, which are a slice of the christian religion, which is a slice of the total population, somewhat align. But also 90% of churches are bad. ?? 4 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: Churches encourage their members to vote according to the consciences and religion is specifically a conscience trainer and former. Everybody encourages people to vote according to their conscience. Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 15 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: Oh I see...because I got called out on generalizing and clarified/changed my argument...or because I committed a fallacy, it means I'm completely wrong eh? No, there isn't anyone in this entire thread that has said NO churches do these things. The problem was when you first said "all" then went to "90%" and wouldn't back down from that. 15 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: Churches encourage their members to vote according to the consciences and religion is specifically a conscience trainer and former. SOME churches do this. If you would have indicated you have a problem with the churches that do do this while not trying to say that ALL...excuse me...90% of churches do this. I don't think anyone would have had a problem with your post. The problem is that you threw out a huge over generalization of all Churches that simply is not justified and you couldn't back that up. Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 21 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: All churches do this.. 21 minutes ago, BlitzFirst said: Are you still on 'all churches' again? Man, I already clarified this two or three times over and you're still moving the goalposts back to that? Link to comment
Apsu Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 6 hours ago, 30-50 Feral Hogs said: In my opinion.. The act of abortion is a moral issue. Keeping it legal or making it illegal is the political issue That summarizes the situation well. Some people see peace, healthcare and the environment as moral issues too. Should a tax exempt religious organization be allowed to politically organize from the pulpit? Link to comment
Apsu Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 7 hours ago, TGHusker said: Good question - most social issues have a political solution( govt solution) and a non-political solution. As private citizens and as private organizations we can do what we can to work on the issue. Sometimes govt intervention is needed - ok most times govt has to be involved - that is where the debate comes in on what is the best solution. I think we demonize 'the other side' too much when talking about solutions (regardless of who the other side is). Most people want to solve the problem they just have different ways of getting there. Most times the best solution is a mix from both sides but if we are constantly yelling over each other and making every social issue a 'red meat' political issue, it doesn't get solved - which often fits in wt the plan of the partisan leaders of these parties. Having divisive social issues is how parties get power and stay in power. We, as private citizens and organizations, should refuse to be pawns in that kind of power trap. Thus, I'm not beholding to the GOP just because I'm pro-life. Hot button social issues like abortion, immigration and guns keep the bases of both parties at each others throats. making compromise impossible. 2 Link to comment
30-50 Feral Hogs Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 25 minutes ago, Apsu said: Should a tax exempt religious organization be allowed to politically organize from the pulpit? I guess they should be allowed to if for profit businesses can cite religious freedom when they deny service to people Link to comment
Apsu Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 11 minutes ago, 30-50 Feral Hogs said: I guess they should be allowed to if for profit businesses can cite religious freedom when they deny service to people Based on my reading of the Constitution, I would say that both are wrong. 1 Link to comment
30-50 Feral Hogs Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 18 minutes ago, Apsu said: Based on my reading of the Constitution, I would say that both are wrong. You would be correct. Yet they are both happening. Link to comment
Moiraine Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 8 hours ago, BlitzFirst said: Oh I see...because I got called out on generalizing and clarified/changed my argument...or because I committed a fallacy, it means I'm completely wrong eh? Oddly enough, that again is a fallacy again..it's called Argument from fallacy. My official stance is that politics and religion would be better completely separate. Churches host voting registration drives, they open their doors as voting sites on elections, they host patriotic events, and encourage patriotism. I gave examples of Evangelicals and Catholics because they make up almost 65% of Christians in the US and they both align on prolife and against gay marriage; not because I think they need to be dragged through the mud or have a problem with them...both of those issues are hot-button political issues. Churches encourage their members to vote according to the consciences and religion is specifically a conscience trainer and former. I think that distancing religions from military, state and federal government, and political issues would be something that should be done. There is no place for one inside the other. Whether or not you believe an invisible entity governs all life should not be a prerequisite for becoming president...but currently it is and I find that discouraging on the whole. Most of the statements you’ve made have been wrong. But I think most people discussing with you want there to be separation between church and state. 1 Link to comment
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