Creationist - Evolution Belief spectrum

[Big Red 40]

20 hours ago, Landlord said:

 

 

I'd say that's good, because that doesn't really hold up as something that makes much sense.

 

If there is such a thing as hell (as broadly defined as you want it to be), and there is such a thing as a need to believe in or have faith in something in order to obtain eternal life, this is the way I would approach that. God is the underlying source of all good substance and energy in the universe. Having faith in God is living through life making progress to tap into that energy, be in harmony with it, and letting it fulfill you.

 

If you decide instead to choose to focus on self, on ego, on bitterness, on gloom, so on and so forth, then "hell" would just be a natural progression of you eternally drifting further and further, by your own volition, from the source of light, healing, power, love and unity. 

 

In addition, even though I don't believe in a heaven/hell dichotomy, the idea of following Jesus being a pre-requisite for saving faith is much less to do with believing a certain set of intellectual propositions and more of, you know, what Jesus actually talked about when he said the greatest commandments were to love God and love your neighbor. If there is such a thing as hell, Roy Moore will end up there, despite his (what I would probably believe to be genuine) self-identification as a Christian. But conversely, can we really say that a woman in Syria who walks 5 miles to fill up a bucket of dirty water every day, never using it on herself but to bathe her husband, wash her children's school clothes, etc., ISN'T Christ-like? If we're going to insist on teams of people being in or out, that person most certainly has to be in, right?

Without the promise of eternal life, and the fear of Hell Christianity falls apart for me . Being an atheist makes more sense to me in that scenario .

I mean,  if all I’m going to do is love others, be nice , and have a good life I can do that on my own without any beliefs . I could spare myself the stress and guilt of trying to be holy , godly, or worrying about sin also . 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Big Red 40

[Landlord]

Maybe Christianity should fall apart for you, in that case.

 

I say Christianity as something different entirely from the message of Christ. A central tenant of the gospels is that there is no fear in Christ. If your religion is based on fear and falls apart without it, then good riddance. A Christ who functions as a train ticket to your reward in the next life is no Christ at all.

 

Do you care about your own means to an end, or do you care about justice, peace, love, empathy, less empathy and a more fulfilling and fulfilled world? 

[JJ Husker]

I'll share an answer I received from my Lutheran pastor many years ago. I asked him in confirmation class how God could send to hell unbaptized babies or those from other cultures that had not been exposed to Christianity or the news of Jesus Christ. I mean that is what many Christian religions teach and believe. His answer; (my name) don't you think with God's infinite wisdom that he will do the right thing?  That answer has stuck with me for over 40 years and helps me out everytime I struggle with things organized religion or the church does that seem to go against my sensibilities or what I feel the message is really supposed to be. As I see it here are two circumstances; the way God intended things to be and then there are the multiple ways man has misinterpreted, misunderstood and misapplied the message.

[NM11046]

I appreciate the comfort that gave and gives you Numb, but it's not really an answer is it?  If that's the case why do pastors/priests etc preach that those things happen?  Why is it in the bible?  I am assuming that you were a younger guy when this happened, but did you ask any further?  Would you now?

[Landlord]

If God is real and God made us in it's image, it doesn't stand to reason that why God would eternally punish and torture the overwhelming majority of all human souls that have existed, without any of them actually having any ability to do anything about it.

 

If we are made at all like God then what God does shouldn't be that drastic of a mystery to us. If a human parent had dozens of children and threw them into an oven after a period of time that would be considered the most insidious act of horrific tragedy any of us could imagine. To take a similar concept about God and not address it due to a cop out, "God is wise just trust him" isn't acceptable to me.

[Big Red 40]

God did create us in his image, and loved us. He also created us with free will, and eventually sinful humans chose to dishonor/disrespect and turn their backs on  him. 

Even then though he loved us enough to allow his only begotten son to be viciously murdered, to wash away our sins. All we had to do to receive that gift was believe in him , ask forgiveness, and spread the good news of salvation to others. Core belief in a nutshell was John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 

Our purpose on earth was to live a godly life, and witness to others until every man woman and child on earth had heard the truth. Those who heard the "truth", turned their backs on him, and rejected his gift, angered God, and sealed their own fate.

The doctrine wasn't based on the fear of hell necessarily, it was more the rejoicing in salvation on earth and the thought of eternity in heaven. Streets of gold, no more pain and strife, eternal peace, walk with God, and all of life's questions would be answered. Pretty good deal really.

As a kid i remember trying to use my finite mind to grasp eternity (we cant), and the thought of being in  a lake of fire forever was a very heavy,  scary concept . Even many years later as i question everything, its in the back of my mind , and is one of the main  reasons i cant subscribe to atheism. Say i denounce God, and the doctrine is real, i'm screwed for eternity when i die . Not good.  

Edited January 21, 2018 by Big Red 40

[Landlord]

2 hours ago, Big Red 40 said:

God did create us in his image, and loved us. He also created us with free will, and eventually sinful humans chose to dishonor/disrespect and turn their backs on  him. 

 

 

Do you think it's possible for a human being born tomorrow to live a sinless life?

[Big Red 40]

I'm still trying to piece together what i believe at this point, but the religion i was taught, and believed for many years, says no. Humans are born into sin, and the only thing that can save us from that is the blood of Jesus. His forgiveness and mercy were required to be holy. They didn't practice infant baptism, that was part of the conscious acceptance of salvation, usually in your teens, or adulthood. I don't recall the rules on when you could accept salvation, but i know babies weren't sent to hell since they couldn't make that choice. 

[Landlord]

27 minutes ago, Big Red 40 said:

I'm still trying to piece together what i believe at this point, but the religion i was taught, and believed for many years, says no. Humans are born into sin, and the only thing that can save us from that is the blood of Jesus. His forgiveness and mercy were required to be holy. They didn't practice infant baptism, that was part of the conscious acceptance of salvation, usually in your teens, or adulthood. I don't recall the rules on when you could accept salvation, but i know babies weren't sent to hell since they couldn't make that choice. 

 

If that is true, then the reality is that God is continuously creating new souls, placing them in a fallen world, where it's impossible for them to make the right decisions, and where there's a 99.999% failure rate of saving them.

[Big Red 40]

Yep I believed the doctrine  for years until that very realization hit me one day . Even if there are exemptions for babies and people who live and die never hearing the gospel etc, that’s a whole bunch of people in the lake of fire . Billions of Hindus , Buddhists , Muslims, atheists etc, literally the majority of people who have ever walked the earth sent to eternal torment by a loving God because they chose to  believe something else ? I couldn’t wrap my head around that thought at all . 

[JJ Husker]

On 1/20/2018 at 11:03 AM, NM11046 said:

I appreciate the comfort that gave and gives you Numb, but it's not really an answer is it?  If that's the case why do pastors/priests etc preach that those things happen?  Why is it in the bible?  I am assuming that you were a younger guy when this happened, but did you ask any further?  Would you now?

 

I think it's the perfect answer. It places complete faith and trust in God and lets go of the human influence. Your two follow up questions are really asking about what man has done. Why do pastors/priests/churches/religions do those things? Because man does those things. Why is it in the Bible? Because man wrote and translated and interprets the Bible. 

 

Would I ask further now? Who exactly, precisely is qualified to answer for God? No, I'm perfectly satisfied knowing that God will do the right and just thing regardless what numerous fallible men may have to say about it.

[Landlord]

How can we ask, "Who's qualified to answer for God?", and then turn around and essentially answer for God ourselves?

 

That seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too.

[JJ Husker]

51 minutes ago, Landlord said:

How can we ask, "Who's qualified to answer for God?", and then turn around and essentially answer for God ourselves?

 

That seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too.

@Landlord Okay then, just answer the first question; Who's qualified to answer for God? You? All the resources you quote or recommend?

 

And then please point out where I have answered for God. I've kind of detailed my understanding or my belief system but I have not ever intended to say definitively this is the way it is or this is what God would do. I simply believe he will do the right thing in all cases. Why is that hard for you to accept? Do you believe or think you know he will do the wrong thing in certain circumstances?

[Landlord]

Not at all. I just think you might be relying on a distant/confusing God as a crutch to avoid wrestling with the tough questions that could send you into a tailspin.

 

I used to be in those shoes. My faith was very zealous and genuine, but it was in some respects a comfort and safety thing where I was fed answers to shut down any dangerous dissenting ideas, while convincing myself that I was open-minded because I was "fine" with horrific ideas such as God choosing to continuously create billions of souls for the purpose of destruction for his glory. Over time and new experiences I started growing more uncomfortable with my castle of intellectual certainty and started giving up pieces of it. Deconstructing all of that framework and embracing the mystery of whatever and whoever God is. So now I dive into those questions, live in the mess, and live in the uncertainties. 

 

Who is qualified to answer for God? I'd say all of us, and none of us. The Bible is a diverse collection of stories of different people trying to ask and answer those questions. God, even a specific God like Yahweh, has looked so different so many times throughout history, who's to say? That means that, I think, God can only be known so much as God can be experienced, and experience is subjective, so no source or person and their ideas should be the ultimate authority, but neither should your own thoughts. I'm rambling now

[knapplc]

1 hour ago, Comfortably Numb said:

Who's qualified to answer for God? You?

 

If the only answer is God, and God's not here to answer, what then?