Creationist - Evolution Belief spectrum

[NM11046]

6 hours ago, Comfortably Numb said:

 

I think it's the perfect answer. It places complete faith and trust in God and lets go of the human influence. Your two follow up questions are really asking about what man has done. Why do pastors/priests/churches/religions do those things? Because man does those things. Why is it in the Bible? Because man wrote and translated and interprets the Bible. 

 

Would I ask further now? Who exactly, precisely is qualified to answer for God? No, I'm perfectly satisfied knowing that God will do the right and just thing regardless what numerous fallible men may have to say about it.

Fair enough - I guess the "faith" thing is where I get lost.  If that's the case (I'm not poking the bear here - sincerely asking) why do we go to church?  Have a bible that's referenced?  Have a pastor to pass those ideas and themes down to us?  Which gets me back to not believing in "religion" as it's so defined ... if you are content with your faith in god being there, doing the right thing etc isn't that all you need?  

 

Honestly, the whole idea is so nebulous to me that I have a hard time figuring out exactly what my questions are or how to phrase them properly.  So thanks for being open to the discussion.

[JJ Husker]

I think maybe you've misunderstood my acceptance of not being able to fully comprehend some of these matters with having given up on trying to understand them. That is definitely not the case. But many of the tough questions do get condensed down to the very simple matter of having faith in God. Since I believe we were created and not a happenstance occurance and I don't believe mankind is built to be able to fully comprehend some things of a supernatural nature, at some point I have to accept that the creator must know what he is doing and will be fair. I don't think that is giving up on searching for answers. It's just a reality of the situation we are in.

 

One thing I think I do know and that has been proven through the ages is that man has ulterior motives and cannot be fully relied upon to always provide the best guidance. I try to sort through the man made stuff as best I can but I have to trust that God will do the right thing no matter what man's understanding of the right thing is.

[Landlord]

27 minutes ago, Comfortably Numb said:

One thing I think I do know and that has been proven through the ages is that man has ulterior motives and cannot be fully relied upon to always provide the best guidance. I try to sort through the man made stuff as best I can but I have to trust that God will do the right thing no matter what man's understanding of the right thing is.

 

 

I totally agree with the first part of this. That goes for all mankind - that goes for the scriptures, the church traditions, and it also goes for my own heart and mind.

 

The part I guess I disagree with is when God's "right thing" seems so completely contrary to our ideas of the right thing. If God created us in his image, we should at least have the right direction or right idea, albeit incomplete, of what "right" is. When your theology of God is so diametrically opposed (not YOU you, just all of us) to our notions of right/wrong, or even to the message and life of Jesus (if you believe he is God), then that doesn't seem like God to me. 

 

I'm super on board with faith as an active trust that God is good. Not so much on board with, "God is good so even though x, y and z seem abhorrent to me, I guess I just don't understand what good is." For example, genocide seems to be, you know, just wrong. Period. No exceptions. So I couldn't look at a genocidal portrait of God and say, "Hmm, I guess it's good and I just don't understand." These are just general statements, not directed specifically at you as accusations or anything 

[Danny Bateman]

That's an interesting tangent, Landlord. 

 

I've been slowly reading through the Old Testament over a long period of time, little by little. A lot of concepts from the Old Testament seem incompatible with modern society. A lot of the rules God listed for people seem archaic & very odd in our modern culture. I'm at a loss for how to interpret these. For instance, Leviticus talks about not trimming the side of your hear or the edges of your beard. The very next verse specifically forbids tattoos. 

 

And of course, there's the whole genocide of entire villages & cities, like you already mentioned. In addition to the occasional stoning.

 

I've always used these as ways to point out the flaws of people who tend to focus heavily (and occasionally) persecute certain sins in particular. It's always seemed wrong to me for us, being imperfect beings, to decide which sins matter & which don't. 

[Landlord]

I just interpret it all as an ancient eastern culture trying to understand God. 

 

All of the Bible is a progression of mankind's ideas about God. Assuming that God is communicating with mankind, we only have the other end of the phone line, and it isn't "God" that changes but humanity's constantly changing and evolving ideas about God. First God walked in the garden. Then God was a burning bush spouting existential poetry. Then God was a pillar of light and smoke. Then God dwelt inside the arc. Then inside the tabernacle. Then God had a face in the person of Christ. Then God lived inside of us in the Holy Spirit. 

 

The different versions of God make very much sense if you place them into the understandings of the people in their contexts, with very subjective experiences of people groups trying to understand this grand mystery. Why do you suppose God is a he? Is it because God has a penis, or because the cultures who were trying to understand were all patriarchal, and that was helpful imagery?

Edited January 23, 2018 by Landlord

[TGHusker]

1 hour ago, knapplc said:

 

If the only answer is God, and God's not here to answer, what then?

Without wanting to open another rabbit trial off the original topic let me say this:

This post isn't aimed at anyone - I just wanted to piggy back on Knapp's post to tell what I believe.

God was physically here, He spoke to us and is still speaking to us.  God became flesh, the Word became flesh. And we have His words

in the Gospels and expanded upon in the writings of Paul, Peter, John, etc.  Thus He is still speaking to us through scriptures.

This may be too simplistic for some, to foolish to others, to unbelievable to many, but I believe Jesus Christ was God incarnate

and rose from dead and still speaks to us and inspires us via scriptures, prayer and the magnificent things we see in creation (the macro and the

micro that I mentioned in my previous post on Intelligent design. Romans 1:18-23English Standard Version (ESV)¹⁸ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. ¹⁹ For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. ²⁰ For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,^[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. ²¹ For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. ²² Claiming to be wise, they became fools, ²³ and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.)

 

Next I'm going to give scriptural backing to what I'm saying. Yes, I know some of you think the scripture is unreliable, full of errors, out dated, self authenticating, etc, etc. We've had those discussions before.  I offer not apologies for using scripture - I have come to believe it (I wasn't always a believer).  It isn't my job or intent to try to persuade anyone,  but for myself, I've considered the claims of atheism and agnosticism & I find both 'wanting".  The atheist will speak of what they don't believe. The agnostic of what they don't know.  I believe there is sufficient evidence for the claims of scripture on who Christ was to justify belief.  One has to ask how much 'truth' or 'evidence' is enough.   But that is a discussion we've had several times before.    I don't want to get into point/counter point discussion on it as it is unfruitful - we typically just talk over each other unfortunately. (Unless someone wants a private PM discussion).  So again,  this post isn't aimed at anyone - I just wanted to piggy back on Knapp's post to tell what I believe.

What does the Bible say?

1. John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

2. Philippians 2:5-6 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

3. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

4. John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

5. Colossians 2:9-10 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

 

Jesus claimed to be God.

6. John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

7. John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

 

Jesus is the Word.

8. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

9. John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

Jesus Christ is the only way into Heaven.

10. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

11. Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

 

I am He

12. John 8:57-58 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”

13. John 8:22-24 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?” But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

14. John 13:18-19 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me.’ “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.

 

First and last: There’s only one God

15. Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

16. 1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

17. Revelation 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

18. Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.

 

Only God can be worshiped. Jesus was worshiped. 

19. Matthew 2:1-2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

20. Matthew 28:8-9 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

 

Prayed to

21. Acts 7:59-60 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

The Trinity

22. Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

23. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

Examples

24. John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

25. 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

Bonus

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

[TGHusker]

26 minutes ago, dudeguyy said:

That's an interesting tangent, Landlord. 

 

I've been slowly reading through the Old Testament over a long period of time, little by little. A lot of concepts from the Old Testament seem incompatible with modern society. A lot of the rules God listed for people seem archaic & very odd in our modern culture. I'm at a loss for how to interpret these. For instance, Leviticus talks about not trimming the side of your hear or the edges of your beard. The very next verse specifically forbids tattoos. 

 

And of course, there's the whole genocide of entire villages & cities, like you already mentioned. In addition to the occasional stoning.

 

I've always used these as ways to point out the flaws of people who tend to focus heavily (and occasionally) persecute certain sins in particular. It's always seemed wrong to me for us, being imperfect beings, to decide which sins matter & which don't. 

With the OT, I like to think of the broad themes that can be found. Many of those 'rules' were written for cultural, governmental reasons as they applied to Israel and OT believers in particular.

Apostle Paul said the OT was given for our example - learn from the mistakes of the OT believers - Jews.  Look for God's redemptive work in the midst of their failures.  Look for comfort in the Psalms, wisdom in Proverbs - all to help us with our faith today.

[RedDenver]

4 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Without wanting to open another rabbit trial off the original topic let me say this:

This post isn't aimed at anyone - I just wanted to piggy back on Knapp's post to tell what I believe.

God was physically here, He spoke to us and is still speaking to us.  God became flesh, the Word became flesh. And we have His words

in the Gospels and expanded upon in the writings of Paul, Peter, John, etc.  Thus He is still speaking to us through scriptures.

 

It's fine that you believe these things, but whether these statements are true or not is much of the crux of the argument. I could easily say that none of those things are true, and neither of us has evidence to support either case. So it's not much help to those who don't believe or aren't sure to simply say these things are true, therefore <insert conclusion>.

[JJ Husker]

54 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

I totally agree with the first part of this. That goes for all mankind - that goes for the scriptures, the church traditions, and it also goes for my own heart and mind.

 

The part I guess I disagree with is when God's "right thing" seems so completely contrary to our ideas of the right thing. If God created us in his image, we should at least have the right direction or right idea, albeit incomplete, of what "right" is. When your theology of God is so diametrically opposed (not YOU you, just all of us) to our notions of right/wrong, or even to the message and life of Jesus (if you believe he is God), then that doesn't seem like God to me. 

 

I'm super on board with faith as an active trust that God is good. Not so much on board with, "God is good so even though x, y and z seem abhorrent to me, I guess I just don't understand what good is." For example, genocide seems to be, you know, just wrong. Period. No exceptions. So I couldn't look at a genocidal portrait of God and say, "Hmm, I guess it's good and I just don't understand." These are just general statements, not directed specifically at you as accusations or anything 

 

I think we're agreeing on all of it but I must not be explaining myself well enough. I'm sure not intending to say bad abhorrent things are okay or good because God allows them to occur. Sort of gets back to freewill and God really not controlling what man does. I think that is what causes a lot of people to lose belief in God. It's pretty difficult to look at all the bad sh#t that happens in this world and think there is a loving God causing or allowing these things to occur. So I guess my way of dealing with that is to realize he is not causing them and then I have to be fair and acknowledge that he also isn't responsible for the good things that happen. Men do these things and God is only complicit by giving us freewill. I really don't think it could work any other way though. I can't imagine a higher being would have any need to create us only to make us into do good robots. But I sure understand how and why that can cause problems for people that maybe don't have the amount of faith that I do.

 

And, at the risk of rambling, I don't think that level of faith can always be sustained very easily. Answering NM's question of why go to church or why partake in any religion then, I guess my answer is that it helps me maintain that faith and aids my understanding. Going to church or being any specific religion may not be necessary but I think it helps and serves a purpose. IMO it would be very easy to quit even considering many of these spiritual issues if we didn't give them the time and effort to be considered. Church is sort of a reminder that way, for me and many others anyways. I mean how much would a person understand the game of football if they never actually watched games? Maybe not the best analogy....

[Landlord]

2 hours ago, Comfortably Numb said:

I'm sure not intending to say bad abhorrent things are okay or good because God allows them to occur. Sort of gets back to freewill and God really not controlling what man does. I think that is what causes a lot of people to lose belief in God. It's pretty difficult to look at all the bad sh#t that happens in this world and think there is a loving God causing or allowing these things to occur. So I guess my way of dealing with that is to realize he is not causing them and then I have to be fair and acknowledge that he also isn't responsible for the good things that happen. Men do these things and God is only complicit by giving us freewill. I really don't think it could work any other way though. I can't imagine a higher being would have any need to create us only to make us into do good robots. But I sure understand how and why that can cause problems for people that maybe don't have the amount of faith that I do.

 

 

 

Re: the first sentence, I'm not accusing you of saying that just so you know However, I do think that is the subtext, that people are usually unwilling to admit, of a 'traditional' view of hell and salvation (for anyone who has it), given what I outlined earlier about the idea of God creating billions of souls who had no choice in the matter and have a 99% chance of being destined towards eternal torment. @knapplc was actually the first person I heard that argument from when he was freshly deconverted, and I never disagreed with the logic but I was more on your side of the fence in regards to, "I can't prove that wrong but I have faith that God is good." If a God exists that didn't give me a free will choice on existing, and poofed me into an existence where it is impossible for me to please him, that isn't a good God. That's also, thank God (pun intended), not the type of God that is revealed in the person of Jesus.

 

All of that doesn't even touch on the fact that I don't think the scriptures support that kind of idea of hell at all.

 

One thing I do disagree on, though, is that "God" is the only source of all things good. God is the sustaining forces and energy that hold the universe together. God is love. God is freedom and liberation and justice. If there is such a thing as hell, literally or metaphorically, it's the absence of the source of good.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Landlord

[knapplc]

You can take this how you will, @Landlord, but you remind me very much of me about a year before I stopped believing. 

 

My path may not be the right path, and/or it may not be right for you. But I've seen those footsteps before.  Maybe you can help me see some clarity with a fresh take on things.

 

 

[Kiyoat Husker]

Wow!  I didn't know if this thread would take off, but it sure has been some interesting (and civil) discourse.

 

When I started the poll, I initially thought "Am I giving too many choices?" but as it turns out, people are landing all over the map in this "belief spectrum".  As it should be.  It makes me wonder where people would land in other topics that have been "polarized" by politics in America.

 

Abortion?  Gay marriage/rights/equality?  Gun ownership?  Environment/pollution?  Military spending/deployment? Media bias/Fake news/Propaganda?

 

I think that the tribalism of polarized politics has done harm to the naturally diverse "spectrum" of people's personal beliefs.  I blame the 2-party dominated system we have in this country.

[NM11046]

Its a great topic Kiyot.  Thanks. I expect you’ll start the others in the future!

[TGHusker]

15 hours ago, RedDenver said:

It's fine that you believe these things, but whether these statements are true or not is much of the crux of the argument. I could easily say that none of those things are true, and neither of us has evidence to support either case. So it's not much help to those who don't believe or aren't sure to simply say these things are true, therefore <insert conclusion>.

Yes, I understand that - I just didn't want to get into a long discussion on it at this time.  Many other threads exist wt that discussion.  I was probably a bit abrupt - so forgive me for that part. 

[TGHusker]

13 hours ago, Landlord said:

 

 

Re: the first sentence, I'm not accusing you of saying that just so you know However, I do think that is the subtext, that people are usually unwilling to admit, of a 'traditional' view of hell and salvation (for anyone who has it), given what I outlined earlier about the idea of God creating billions of souls who had no choice in the matter and have a 99% chance of being destined towards eternal torment. @knapplc was actually the first person I heard that argument from when he was freshly deconverted, and I never disagreed with the logic but I was more on your side of the fence in regards to, "I can't prove that wrong but I have faith that God is good." If a God exists that didn't give me a free will choice on existing, and poofed me into an existence where it is impossible for me to please him, that isn't a good God. That's also, thank God (pun intended), not the type of God that is revealed in the person of Jesus.

 

All of that doesn't even touch on the fact that I don't think the scriptures support that kind of idea of hell at all.

 

One thing I do disagree on, though, is that "God" is the only source of all things good. God is the sustaining forces and energy that hold the universe together. God is love. God is freedom and liberation and justice. If there is such a thing as hell, literally or metaphorically, it's the absence of the source of good.

Good post LL.  I think the overwhelming theme of scriptures and the common thread woven through all of the books of the Bible is God's redemptive story - a story of God's love 'chasing after us' if you will to bring us into fellowship with Him.  We push him aside because of deep hurt (perhaps loss of a loved one, job failure, etc), bitterness (if God was really God he would have protected me from ...) selfishness, bad relationships (we can't stand the idea of him as a "Father"  based on our own sour relationship wt our real father), intellectual pride, intellectual honesty (honest pursuit of facts leads you elsewhere), bad witness from 'God's people' (hypocrites in the church -we expect more of God's people than what we expect from ourself) etc.  I've gone through several of these in my search and running away from the concept of & relationship with God.  Even as a believer these can be struggles. 

 

But God never seems to go away - the conversation is always there. He is still pursuing us for a relationship of love and not duty(religion does that duty thing pretty well and it damages the relationship part).  That is his will and desire - not sending people to hell but to receive people to himself.  I believe that the grace of God will be much more abundant than we can imagine in that regard.  Man responds to the light that they have received (even if that only light is what they see in creation, or the witness of their conscious) and I believe grace is given accordingly.  I still think our understanding 'on this side' is still cloudy and always will be. 

 

Is the Bible's discussion of hell an attempt of the people at that time to reconcile God's holiness and man's sinfulness and lack of faith? Perhaps.  The same Jesus who spoke of grace, love and forgiveness also spoke of hell.  How do we reconcile that?  Perhaps His illustrations were pertaining to the period of the time - the period of being under 'law'.  The period of 'grace' was ushered in after his resurrection and now we are under the new covenant of grace. Non of us have correct doctrine - we may have parts but not in whole.  We all see through the glass dimly and I think what we will see on the other side is grace and love shining brightly.