zoogs Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 What's the implication there, anyway? That if only the government had pinpoint, continuous monitoring of everybody's mental health state they could know which citizens to strip of their otherwise protected rights and when? The problem is guns. Their quantity, their availability. It's a problem that can be taken head-on and there really need be no equivocation, no "but also remember to do this". Mental health is not some topic that exists only in the context of gun violence. This particular invocation is always an attempt to blunt efforts targeted at guns themselves -- fairly successfully, too. We know how that story goes, and we know what the next chapter is going to look like. 1 Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Just now, zoogs said: What's the implication there, anyway? That if only the government had pinpoint, continuous monitoring of everybody's mental health state they could know which citizens to strip of their otherwise protected rights and when? The problem is guns. Their quantity, their availability. It's a problem that can be taken head-on and there really need be no equivocation, no "but also remember to do this". Mental health is not some topic that exists only in the context of gun violence. This particular invocation is always an attempt to blunt efforts targeted at guns themselves -- fairly successfully, too. We know how that story goes, and we know what the next chapter is going to look like. And on top of that, no other first-world nation has conquered the massive gun problem America has by treating the problem as a mental health issue. 1 Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) Welcome to why nothing gets done on this. Repeal the second amendment (which completely shuts down one side of the debate from participating) and don't bother figuring out why this ever happened. Great job. Edited February 20, 2018 by BigRedBuster Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 16 minutes ago, knapplc said: We can't simply claim that anyone who shoots up a dozen or more people has mental health issues. Soldiers, for example, are not suffering from mental health issues. Did you just equate a soldier on the battle field with someone walking into a HS and killing 17 people? Link to comment
zoogs Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) Right, the people who want gun control are the reason gun control doesn't get done. My bad. It's my fault -- not the guns, not the people who stop gun control from getting done. If only people who wanted a lot more gun control would stop wanting gun control, then the people who don't want any more gun control would finally be freed from their tethers and allowed to proceed on getting gun control done. I admit, this grave strategic error had not occurred to me. Edited February 20, 2018 by zoogs Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, zoogs said: Right, the people who want gun control are the reason gun control doesn't get done. My bad. It's my fault -- not the guns, not the people who stop gun control from getting done. If only people who wanted a lot more gun control would stop wanting gun control, then the people who don't want any more gun control would finally be freed from their tethers and allowed to proceed on getting gun control done. I admit, this grave strategic error had not occurred to me. That's a really warped interpretation. 2 Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said: Welcome to why nothing gets done on this. Repeal the second amendment (which completely shuts down one side of the debate from participating) and don't bother figuring out why this ever happened. Great job. 2 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said: Did you just equate a soldier on the battle field with someone walking into a HS and killing 17 people? I don't understand the apparent indignation. Let's look at this rationally. We have a gun problem in America, we can all agree on that. (I presume) We would like to solve that problem. The best way to solve that problem is to identify the actual problem first. Can we agree on that? Some claim mental health issues are the cause of these mass shootings. That is certainly something we should investigate - but we should also investigate why that claim is being made. Is it because there is evidence that shows this is true, or is it a distraction? The simplest way to show it's not a distraction is to show the evidence. But nobody has - not gun enthusiasts, not our politicians, not the NRA. The problem is, if mental health issues are not the root of this problem, we're wasting our time dealing with that when we could be drafting legislation to solve the actual problem. My doubt that mental health is the root cause of this problem - and that solving the problem by working the mental health angle - is that no other country comparable to America has solved a gun dilemma through mental health improvements. 1 Link to comment
zoogs Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 You're making some pretty strange statements, BRB. The obvious reason why "nothing gets done" on gun control is that anti-gun control people are extremely resistant to it, as well as extremely powerful (on top of that, I'd add that they fashion themselves victims of a sprawling anti-gun lobby). Only a very small part of the debate, currently, is actually "Repeal 2A". To say that my particular line there is why nothing gets done is odd. The larger implication, that people who want gun control have unreasonable demands, is also odd. There's a fairly broad popular consensus on a lot of points that don't see the political light of day. The "other side", the ones who oppose them, are not being shut down from participating and there is no amount of accommodation that will bring them into the debate. They are completely, utterly recalcitrant. So many people agree that X, Y, and Z should be done about guns. Why doesn't that happen? It's not those people that are the unreasonable ones. -- As for "Repeal 2A", I'll make my case here for why I feel this way and why I don't think it should be interpreted as "gun control, only more extreme." The Bill of Rights matters -- when Republicans a few years ago talked about due process and the dangers of restricting a constitutionally protected fundamental right from a certain class of citizens, Democrats staged a sit-in but I agreed that this was dangerous. If one of these sacrosanct rights to which all are entitled is withheld under some rubric, then all of them are under threat. So the question to me is always why gun possession is one of those rights. Owning a car is not, and yet we own cars. Owning...literally anything else is not, and this does not stop people from possessing watches, or knives, or boats, or tables and chairs. That we have interpreted the 2A such that it enshrines firearm possession in the same sacred circle of basic liberties as freedom of speech and freedom to assemble is a major structural impediment to getting anything done. I don't believe it was ever the intent of the 2A and I don't believe a dramatic reversal of the (relatively recent!) modern SCOTUS interpretation of 2A is forthcoming. Therefore, I think we should just repeal the 2nd amendment. I'd prefer this vastly to creating some convoluted mechanism by which we still define guns as a right but find ever-expanding ways to say some citizens no longer deserve rights. This is about guns, and we can solve the gun problem without introducing a new "but who gets rights, really?" problem. 1 Link to comment
Landlord Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Redux said: What you're saying are exaggerations, not my fault you're leaving them open for interpretation. I didn't make any statements at all. I asked questions - I asked for data and evidence, and I asked for clarification of the point. Your response was that I somehow said that the availability of guns is the only problem and source of mass shootings and if they weren't available nothing bad would happen. That is your fault, because that's an insane response that doesn't match up with anything I posted. Back to the topic at hand - what I asked for wasn't unreasonable. If this is a mental health issue as much as it's a gun issue, or more than a gun issue, or even just to a notable degree that we should be looking into it, where's the evidence that that is true? All I see is people saying it's true. If it's true, let's see the research. Until such a time as people start providing evidence for that claim, let's not act like it's unreasonable to assume that guns are the primary problem in the only place in the world with these rates of gun ownership, these rates of gun homicide, these rates of gun suicide, these rates of mass shootings, and this culture of gun obsession. Link to comment
zoogs Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 ^The 2A stuff is just me, btw. AFAIK it's not a major thing, but I think it could be. The polling tells me not a lot of people consider guns to be particularly precious -- even gun owners, even conservatives. On the other hand, people are right to be serious on "rights" and there are quite legitimate concerns with restricting their protection. I don't know that this argument gets made much, but to me it seems that taking the 2nd amendment head-on itself, and examining why and whether guns should be the same right as all the others (it's crazy that we have this), is something that can allow for more of a path forward. Conservatives on the whole align with the NRA under the "defense of civil liberties" rubric more than their own particular love of guns and the gun industry. At least I hope. Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, knapplc said: I don't understand the apparent indignation. Let's look at this rationally. We have a gun problem in America, we can all agree on that. (I presume) We would like to solve that problem. The best way to solve that problem is to identify the actual problem first. Can we agree on that? Some claim mental health issues are the cause of these mass shootings. That is certainly something we should investigate - but we should also investigate why that claim is being made. Is it because there is evidence that shows this is true, or is it a distraction? The simplest way to show it's not a distraction is to show the evidence. But nobody has - not gun enthusiasts, not our politicians, not the NRA. The problem is, if mental health issues are not the root of this problem, we're wasting our time dealing with that when we could be drafting legislation to solve the actual problem. My doubt that mental health is the root cause of this problem - and that solving the problem by working the mental health angle - is that no other country comparable to America has solved a gun dilemma through mental health improvements. The indignation is because I completely agreed that we have a gun problem and it needs fixed and I am willing to listen and be a part of that discussion with an open mind. However, the moment any type of looking into mental health issues in our society and how we identify, diagnose and handle them came up.....it was full blinders on and full speed ahead to repealing the second amendment (suggested by Zoogs). The problem with this entire debate is that the sides are split on these issues. one side is nothing but ban some or all guns. The other side is nothing but mental health problems and "it's not the gun that killed people". WE NEED BOTH!!! And, it doesn't matter what side does it, when either part of the discussion is closed off, it delays or impedes any real progress. I thought all of us were upset when Trump repealed laws that made it harder for people with mental health issues from buying guns and how he banned the CDC from studying why these incidents occur. Now....I guess I'm learning he did the right thing, because obviously there is no reason to suspect mental instability has anything to do with this....we should just be talking about repealing the second amendment. I don't mean to vent AT you. I'm venting at the entire mess of debate and how we all hunker down on our sides and refuse to even discuss anything else. Edited February 20, 2018 by BigRedBuster Link to comment
Landlord Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said: The problem with this entire debate is that the sides are split on these issues. one side is nothing but ban some or all guns. The other side is nothing but mental health problems and "it's not the gun that killed people". I disagree with your assessment on these diametrically opposed sides, but assuming they exist, the difference is that one side has plenty of data to suggest their approach tackles a legitimate problem and is effective, while the other side has a good sound byte. Side note, I see that people are now calling these high school kids crisis actors and spreading disgusting lies of fake conspiracies. God help us. Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said: I thought all of us were upset when Trump repealed laws that made it harder for people with mental health issues from buying guns and how he banned the CDC from studying why these incidents occur. Now....I guess I'm learning he did the right thing, because obviously there is no reason to suspect mental instability has anything to do with this....we should just be talking about repealing the second amendment. You kind of have that backwards. Trump's action was wrong (stop me if you've heard that before) precisely BECAUSE we need to know if it's a mental health issue. And while zoogs may be advocating a repeal-and-replace of the 2nd Amendment, not everyone is. For one, I don't think zoogs lives in a rural area, and maybe doesn't understand the crucial role hunters play in keeping property damage down. Having to deal with deer all over the highways I frequently frequent, I am grateful we are doing everything reasonable to keep the deer population down - and while everyone COULD hunt all the deer with bows, I'm under the opinion that we should allow rifle hunting just as we always have. I think there are a lot of guns we don't need. There are a lot of guns we do need. So a total repeal of the 2nd Amendment isn't something I'm advocating, and I think zoogs is on a bit of an island if that's all that's being advocated. Link to comment
Redux Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 17 hours ago, Landlord said: Anyone claiming that this is primarily, or even somewhat, of a mental health issue - got any data to back up that claim? I see people spout that off all the time, but what is it based off of? I haven't seen anything that shows the United States being drastically worse at dealing with mental health than other developed countries. I also don't even know what 'mental health' as an extremely broad catch-all is even supposed to be referring to. What mental health issue is the mental health issue? Okay, let me try again. Even after you compared schools being protected by an armed guard to prison... If it's not mental health, what is it? You're implying here that it's not a mental health issue, but a weapons issue no? If you're not, what are you implying? Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, Landlord said: I disagree with your assessment on these diametrically opposed sides, but assuming they exist, the difference is that one side has plenty of data to suggest their approach tackles a legitimate problem and is effective, while the other side has a good sound byte. And, my point about guns being the biggest part of the problem. 1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said: It's meaningless to argue percentages. I'll agree that it's the highest percentage problem and it needs addressed. Link to comment
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