BigRedBuster Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 13 minutes ago, Archy1221 said: Your guess is at good as mine, but was worth pointing out the data Strangelove left out. Maybe he should let us know since he brought the article out. I would suggest starting to look at the media they listen to that is in bed with political parties that want people to believe everything is falling apart and horrible so that the politicians that they want to win gain support. 1 1 Link to comment
Guy Chamberlin Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Presidents from both parties have inherited economies both good and bad, and been handed credit or blame for results they didn't really influence. But in the big picture, Republicans are kinda full of s#!t. Still, it's worth considering the conclusion that actual U.S. fiscal policy hasn't been much of an influence at all. U.S. economic performance under Democratic and Republican presidents Since World War II, the United States economy has performed worse on average under the administration of Republican presidents than Democrat presidents. The reasons for this are debated, and the observation applies to economic variables including job creation, GDP growth, stock market returns, personal income growth and corporate profits. The unemployment rate has fallen on average under democratic presidents, while it has risen on average under republican presidents. Budget deficits relative to the size of the economy were lower on average for democratic presidents.[1][2] Ten of the eleven U.S. recessions between 1953 and 2020 began under Republican presidents. [3] Of these, the most statistically significant differences are in real GDP growth, unemployment rate change, stock market annual return, and job creation rate (see #Statistics). Job creation[edit] Main article: Jobs created during U.S. presidential terms Job creation refers to the number of net jobs added, which is reported monthly by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.[4] Journalist Glenn Kessler of The Washington Post summarized the total job creation by president from Truman through Trump as of August 2020. For the 13 presidents beginning with Truman, total job creation was about 70.5 million for the 7 Democratic presidents and 29.1 million for the 6 Republican presidents. The Democratic presidents were in office for a total of 429 months, with 164,000 jobs per month added on average, while the Republicans were in office for 475 months, with a 61,000 jobs added per month average. This monthly average rate was 2.4 times faster under Democratic presidents.[5] Former President Bill Clinton said in 2012 that “Since 1961…the Republicans have held the White House for 28 years, the Democrats for 24…In those 52 years, our private economy has produced 66 million private-sector jobs. So what’s the jobs score? Republicans 24 million, Democrats 42 million.” Commenting on his statement, The Economist reported that the difference increased by 5 million thereafter under Democratic President Obama by 2014.[2] From April 1945 to August 2023, of the 115 million net jobs added, 83 million (72%) were under Democrats, and 32 million (28%) were under Republicans.[6] Economists Alan Blinder and Mark Watson estimated job growth at 2.6% annually for Democratic presidents, about 2.2 times faster than the 1.2% for Republican presidents, for the 1949-2012 period (Truman's elected term through Obama's first term).[1] Job creation by U.S. presidency[edit] Change in nonfarm employment for all U.S. presidents since 1939 (data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics)[7][8] President Political party Period of presidency Nonfarm employment at the start of presidency (in thousands) Nonfarm employment at the end of presidency (in thousands) Annual percentage change in nonfarm employment Franklin D. Roosevelt (data available for 1939–1945 only) Democratic 1933–1945 29,923 (for January 1939) 41,446 5.35% (annual average from January 1939 to April 1945) Harry S. Truman Democratic 1945–1953 41,446 50,144 2.49% Dwight D. Eisenhower Republican 1953–1961 50,144 53,683 0.86% John F. Kennedy Democratic 1961–1963 53,683 57,255 2.30% Lyndon B. Johnson Democratic 1963–1969 57,255 69,439 3.80% Richard M. Nixon Republican 1969–1974 69,439 78,619 2.25% Gerald R. Ford Republican 1974–1977 78,619 80,690 1.08% Jimmy Carter Democratic 1977–1981 80,690 91,033 3.06% Ronald W. Reagan Republican 1981–1989 91,033 107,161 2.06% George H. W. Bush Republican 1989–1993 107,161 109,794 0.61% Bill Clinton Democratic 1993–2001 109,794 132,698 2.40% George W. Bush Republican 2001–2009 132,698 134,055 0.13% Barack H. Obama Democratic 2009–2017 134,055 145,612 1.04% Donald J. Trump Republican 2017–2021 145,612 142,669 -0.51% Joe Biden Democratic 2021–present 142,669 152,536 (for July 2022) 4.3% (CAGR) GDP growth[edit] Annualized real GDP growth rates under U.S. presidents from Eisenhower to Biden, sorted by growth rate. Data source: U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis quarterly data through the first quarter of 2023. Democrats are in blue, Republicans are in red. The quarter in which a new president takes office is attributed to the incoming president.[9][10] GDP is a measure of both the economic production and income. The Economist reported in August 2014 that real (inflation-adjusted) GDP growth averaged about 1.8 percentage points faster under Democrats, from Truman through Obama's first term, which ended in January 2013.[2] Blinder and Watson estimated the average Democratic real GDP growth rate at 4.3%, vs. 2.5% for Republicans, from President Truman's elected term through President Obama's first term, which ended January 2013.[1] This pattern of faster GDP growth under Democratic presidents continued after Blinder and Watson published their study; GDP grew faster both in President Obama's second term and in the first two years of President Biden's administration than in President Trump's term.[11] CNN reported in September 2020 that GDP grew 4.1% on average under Democrats, versus 2.5% under Republicans, from 1945 through the second quarter of 2020, a difference of 1.6 percentage points.[3] The New York Times reported in February 2021 that: "Since 1933, the economy has grown at an annual average rate of 4.6 percent under Democratic presidents and 2.4 percent under Republicans...The average income of Americans would be more than double its current level if the economy had somehow grown at the Democratic rate for all of the past nine decades.[12] The Washington Post reported that average GDP growth under President Trump for his first three years in office was 2.5%. However, when covid hit in 2020, GDP for his fourth year in office fell 6.5%.[13] Unemployment rates[edit] Blinder and Watson found that the unemployment rate fell under Democratic presidents by an average of 0.8 percentage points, while it increased under Republican presidents by an average of 1.1 percentage points.[1] Journalist Andrew Soergel wrote in U.S. News & World Report in October 2015 that: "The country's unemployment rate has been lower at the end of every Democrat's tenure since Kennedy took office in 1961. Ronald Reagan, meanwhile, is the only GOP president since Dwight Eisenhower took office in 1953 who can say the same."[14][15][8] The unemployment rate under Carter was 7.5% at the start and end of his tenure, but measured precisely fell slightly from 7.49% to 7.47%, consistent with Soergel's article.[16] Historical unemployment rate statistics[edit] Unemployment rate change by United States president between the start of their presidency and the end of their presidency from 1948 (data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics)[15][8] President Political party Period of presidency Unemployment rate at start of presidency Unemployment rate at end of presidency Change in unemployment rate during presidency (percentage points) Harry S. Truman (data available for 1948–1953 only) Democratic 1945–1953 3.4% (for January 1948) 2.9% −0.5 (from January 1948 to January 1953) Dwight D. Eisenhower Republican 1953–1961 2.9% 6.6% +3.7 John F. Kennedy Democratic 1961–1963 6.6% 5.7% −0.9 Lyndon B. Johnson Democratic 1963–1969 5.7% 3.4% −2.3 Richard M. Nixon Republican 1969–1974 3.4% 5.5% +2.1 Gerald R. Ford Republican 1974–1977 5.5% 7.5% +2.0 Jimmy Carter Democratic 1977–1981 7.5% 7.5% 0.0 Ronald W. Reagan Republican 1981–1989 7.5% 5.4% −2.1 George H. W. Bush Republican 1989–1993 5.4% 7.3% +1.9 Bill Clinton Democratic 1993–2001 7.3% 4.2% −3.1 George W. Bush Republican 2001–2009 4.2% 7.8% +3.6 Barack H. Obama Democratic 2009–2017 7.8% 4.7% −3.1 Donald J. Trump Republican 2017–2021 4.7% 6.3% +1.6 Joe Biden Democratic 2021–present 6.4% 3.6% (for May 2022) −2.8 (from January 2021 to May 2022) Unemployment rate change for each U.S. presidential term from 1949 (data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics)[15][8] President Political party Period of presidency Unemployment rate at start of presidential term Unemployment rate at end of presidential term Change in unemployment rate during presidential term (percentage points) Harry S. Truman Democratic 1949–1953 4.3% 2.9% −1.4 Dwight D. Eisenhower Republican 1953–1957 2.9% 4.2% +1.3 Dwight D. Eisenhower Republican 1957–1961 4.2% 6.6% +2.4 John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson Democratic 1961–1965 6.6% 4.9% −1.7 Lyndon B. Johnson Democratic 1965–1969 4.9% 3.4% −1.5 Richard M. Nixon Republican 1969–1973 3.4% 4.9% +1.5 Richard M. Nixon and Gerald R. Ford Republican 1973–1977 4.9% 7.5% +2.6 Jimmy Carter Democratic 1977–1981 7.5% 7.5% 0.0 Ronald W. Reagan Republican 1981–1985 7.5% 7.3% −0.2 Ronald W. Reagan Republican 1985–1989 7.3% 5.4% −1.9 George H. W. Bush Republican 1989–1993 5.4% 7.3% +1.9 Bill Clinton Democratic 1993–1997 7.3% 5.3% −2.0 Bill Clinton Democratic 1997–2001 5.3% 4.2% −1.1 George W. Bush Republican 2001–2005 4.2% 5.3% +1.1 George W. Bush Republican 2005–2009 5.3% 7.8% +2.5 Barack H. Obama Democratic 2009–2013 7.8% 8.0% +0.2 Barack H. Obama Democratic 2013–2017 8.0% 4.7% −3.3 Donald J. Trump Republican 2017–2021 4.7% 6.3% +1.6 Joe Biden Democratic 2021–present 6.4% 3.6% −2.8 (from January 2021 to May 2022) Income growth and inequality[edit] Analysis conducted by Vanderbilt University political science professor Larry Bartels in 2004 and 2015 found income growth is faster and more equal under Democratic presidents. From 1982 through 2013, he found real incomes increased in the 20th and 40th percentiles of incomes under Democrats, while they fell under Republicans. Real incomes grew across all higher percentiles at a greater rate under Democrats, even during the Great Recession and its recovery in Barack Obama's first term. Bartels calculated in 2008 that the real value of the minimum wage in the United States over the preceding sixty years had increased 16 cents per year under Democratic presidents but declined by 6 cents per year under Republican presidents.[17][18] Inflation[edit] Blinder and Watson found that since 1945 the average inflation rate was higher under Republican presidents than under Democrats, though inflation tended to rise under Democrats but fall under Republicans.[1] Federal budget deficits[edit] Blinder and Watson reported that budget deficits tended to be smaller under Democrats, at 2.1% potential GDP versus 2.8% potential GDP for Republicans, a difference of about 0.7 of a percentage point. They wrote that higher budget deficits should theoretically have boosted the economy more for Republicans, and therefore cannot explain the greater GDP growth under Democrats.[1] Since 1981, federal budget deficits have increased under Republican presidents Reagan, both Bushes and Trump, while deficits have declined under Democratic presidents Clinton and Obama. The economy ran surpluses during Clinton's last four fiscal years, the first surpluses since 1969. The deficit was projected to decline sharply in Joe Biden's first fiscal year.[19][20][21] Stock market returns[edit] Stock market returns are also higher under Democratic presidents.[22] CNN reported in September 2020 that: “Since 1945, the S&P 500 has averaged an annual gain of 11.2% during years when Democrats controlled the White House, according to CFRA Research. That's well ahead of the 6.9% average gain under Republicans.”[3] Analysis conducted by S&P Capital IQ in 2016 found similar results since 1901.[23] Blinder and Watson estimated that the S&P 500 returned 8.4% annually on average under Democrats, versus 2.7% under Republicans, a difference of 5.7% percentage points. This computation used the average value in last year of the president's term, minus the average value in last year of previous term.[1] The Washington Post cited a study by CFRA Research that the stock market (as measured by the S&P 500) averaged the following annual rates of return, under different control scenarios, from 1945 to September 2020: Democratic president with split Congress: 13.6% Democratic president with Republican Congress: 13.0% Republican president with Republican Congress: 12.9% Democratic president with Democratic Congress: 9.8% Republican president with split Congress: 5.8% Republican president with Democratic Congress: 4.9%[24] Bloomberg News reported in November 2021 that Democratic presidents held seven of the top ten positions of S&P 500 returns during the first year of a presidential term, measured from their election days. Joe Biden ranked first with a 37.4% return, with the next five highest positions also held by Democrats.[25] The Democratic outperformance is even more striking if data from the Great Depression and World War II are included. From 1927 through 2016, the average excess stock market return (that is, the difference between the stock market return and the return on a risk-free investment) was 10.7% per year under Democratic presidents and -0.2% per year under Republican presidents.[26] Corporate profits[edit] Analysis conducted by CFRA Research in 2020 found that since 1945 corporate earnings per share, a key measure of corporate profitability, grew 12.8% on average under Democratic presidents, versus 1.8% for Republicans.[3] Recessions[edit] Democrats presided over 72% of job creation and 16% of quarters in recession since WW2 (April 1945 to August 2023).[6][1] CNN reported in October 2020 that 10 of the last 11 recessions started under Republican presidents, and that “Every Republican president since Benjamin Harrison, who served from 1889 to 1893, had a recession start in their first term in office.”[3] NBER reports the start date of recessions; the following list includes the president in office at that time and their party:[27] 1.) February 2020 (Trump / R) House - D / Senate - R 2.) December 2007 (Bush 43 / R) House - D / Senate - D 3.) March 2001 (Bush 43 / R) House - R / Senate - R 4.) July 1990 (Bush 41 / R) House - D / Senate - D 5.) July 1981 (Reagan / R) House - D / Senate - D 6.) January 1980 (Carter / D) House - D / Senate - D 7.) November 1973 (Nixon / R) House - D / Senate - D 8.) December 1969 (Nixon / R) House - D / Senate - D 9.) April 1960 (Eisenhower / R) House - D / Senate - D 10.) August 1957 (Eisenhower / R) House - D / Senate - D 11.) July 1953 (Eisenhower / R) House - R / Senate - R 12.) November 1948 (Truman / D) House - R / Senate - R Blinder and Watson estimated that the economy was in recession for 49 quarters from 1949-2013; 8 of these quarters were under Democrats, with 41 under Republicans.[1] The 2020 recession brings that to 50 quarters total in recession, 42 under Republicans (84%) and 8 under Democrats (16%).[27] Reasons for over-performances by Democratic presidents[edit] Blinder and Watson studied the comparative economic performance from Truman's elected term through Obama's first term in 2012. They excluded certain causes, and identified some possible causes.[2] Excluded as causes were age and experience of the president, which political party controlled Congress, and quality of economy inherited (as Democrats tended to take over when times were more difficult). Further, fiscal and monetary policy did not seem to be possible causes. Changes in tax policy had little impact; for example, Clinton raised taxes while Reagan cut them, but both had strong growth. Interest rates had typically risen under Democrats and fallen under Republicans, which theoretically should have favored Republicans. Democrats did benefit from lower oil prices, larger increases in productivity, and better global conditions.[2] Blinder and Watson concluded that: “Rather, it appears that the Democratic edge stems mainly from more benign oil shocks, superior total factor productivity (TFP) performance, a more favorable international environment, and perhaps more optimistic consumer expectations about the near-term future.”[1] Commentary[edit] The Joint Economic Committee Democrats summarized and expanded the Blinder and Watson analysis in a June 2016 report, writing: "Claims that Republicans are better at managing the economy are simply not true. While the reasons are neither fully understood nor completely attributable to policy choices, data show that the economy has performed much better during Democratic administrations. Economic growth, job creation and industrial production have all been stronger."[28] Journalist David Leonhardt wrote in the NYT that economists he interviewed were not certain of the cause. One possibility for the consistent outperformance by Democratic presidents was: "Democrats have been more willing to heed economic and historical lessons about what policies actually strengthen the economy, while Republicans have often clung to theories that they want to believe — like the supposedly magical power of tax cuts and deregulation. Democrats, in short, have been more pragmatic." He wrote that Democratic presidents championing the ideas of John Maynard Keynes have taken stronger fiscal action to address crises.[12] Statistics[edit] The following table compares selected results for the Democratic and Republican presidents, using the Blinder & Watson data (typically Truman's elected term through Obama's first term). The abbreviation "pp" means percentage points. The p-value is the probability that the observed difference would occur if it were due to chance.[1] P-values typically considered statistically significant are those equal to or less than .1, .05, or .01, with each of these numbers representing a different level of significance and lower being more significant.[29] Variable Democrats Republicans Difference P-value Real GDP growth 4.33% 2.54% 1.79 pp 0.01 Job creation rate % 2.59% 1.17% 1.42 pp 0.02 Unemployment rate % 5.64% 6.01% 0.38 pp 0.62 Unemployment rate change -0.83 pp +1.09 pp 1.92 pp 0.01 Inflation rate (GDP deflator) 2.89% 3.44% 0.55 pp 0.59 Budget deficit % potential GDP 2.09% 2.78% 0.69 pp 0.30 Stock market S&P 500 annual return 8.35% 2.70% 5.65 pp 0.15 References[edit] ^ Jump up to:a b c d e f g h i j k Blinder, Alan S.; Watson, Mark W. (April 2016). "Presidents and the U.S. Economy: An Econometric Exploration". American Economic Review. 106 (4): 1015–1045. doi:10.1257/aer.20140913. S2CID 32188412. ^ Jump up to:a b c d e "Timing is everything". August 9, 2014 – via economist.com. ^ Jump up to:a b c d e "Stocks perform better when a Democrat is in the White House". September 23, 2020 – via cnn.com. ^ "Employment Situation Summary". November 6, 2020 – via bls.gov. ^ "Biden's claim that Trump will be the first president with a negative jobs record". October 2, 2020 – via washingtonpost.com. ^ Jump up to:a b FRED (Dec 28, 2021). "All Employees, Total Nonfarm". FRED, Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis. Retrieved Dec 28, 2021. ^ "Top Picks (Most Requested Statistics) : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics". ^ Jump up to:a b c d "Notice: Data not available: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics". ^ "Guess Which Presidents Really Oversaw Economic Booms". August 1, 2018 – via bloomberg.com. ^ "Table 1.1.6. Real Gross Domestic Product, Chained Dollars". U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA). ^ "Real Gross Domestic Product". Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis. ^ Jump up to:a b Leonhardt, David (Feb 3, 2021). "Why Are Republican Presidents So Bad for the Economy?". New York Times. ^ Long, Heather (Sep 5, 2020). "The Trump vs. Obama Economy - in 16 charts?". Washington Post. ^ "Which Presidents Have Been Best for the Economy?". October 28, 2015 – via usnews.com. ^ Jump up to:a b c "Home". bls.gov. ^ "FRED graph of unemployment rate measured using components". June 22, 2023 – via fred.stlouisfed.org. ^ Bartels, Larry (January 15, 2015). "Can 'conservative principles' boost working-class incomes?". The Washington Post. ^ McElwee, Sean (December 28, 2015). "These 5 charts prove that the economy does better under Democratic presidents". Salon. ^ Funke, Daniel (July 29, 2019). ""Reagan took the deficit from $70 billion to $175 billion. Bush 41 took it to $300 billion. Clinton got it to zero. Bush 43 took it from zero to $1.2 trillion. Obama halved it to $600 billion. Trump's got it back to a trillion."". PolitiFact. ^ Wichert, Bill (June 8, 2012). ""It took us four years to balance the budget. Then I gave you four surplus budgets for the first time in more than 70 years, paid $600 billion down on the national debt."". PolitiFact. ^ Lawder, David (May 25, 2022). "CBO sees sharp reduction in FY 2022 deficit, but slowing economy to boost debt". Reuters. ^ Santa-Clara, Pedro; Valkanov, Rossen (October 2003). "The Presidential Puzzle: Political Cycles and the Stock Market". The Journal of Finance. Wiley. 58 (5): 1841–1872. doi:10.1111/1540-6261.00590. JSTOR 3648176. S2CID 9684018. ^ Egan, Matt (March 3, 2016). "History Shows Stocks, GDP Outperform Under Democrats". Fox Business. ^ "What a contested election means for the economy--and your wallet". November 4, 2020 – via washingtonpost.com. ^ Emily Graffeo; Lu Wang (November 3, 2021). "S&P 500 Is Up 37% Since Biden's Election One Year Ago, Setting Presidential Record". Bloomberg News. ^ Ke, Da (May 7, 2019). "Left Behind: Partisan Identity and Wealth Inequality" (PDF). ^ Jump up to:a b "US Business Cycle Expansions and Contractions". November 23, 2020 – via nber.org. ^ "The Economy Under Democratic vs. Republican Presidents". June 22, 2016 – via jec.senate.gov. ^ "Tests of Significance". www.stat.yale.edu. Retrieved 2021-11-02. 1 3 Link to comment
Archy1221 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 6 hours ago, BigRedBuster said: I would suggest starting to look at the media they listen to that is in bed with political parties that want people to believe everything is falling apart and horrible so that the politicians that they want to win gain support. Does that media you referenced have a large Democrat audience? As in 40 % of them? 2 Link to comment
Dr. Strangelove Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 8 hours ago, Archy1221 said: Ah ah ah ah ahhhhh….you were quite certain in an earlier post that the population at large almost ALWAYS had a dour view on the economy, trait properties be damned, EVEN IN GOOD TIMES. You cited Clinton years as an example. So now, what made 2018/2019 unique and go against what you were saying before going off on this tangent? Trump had an awful overall rating. As bad as Joe is now, yet the economy had great ratings. Actually some 15-20 points higher than his actual vote totals. The Big Guys is 15 points lower? .... I mean, I explained this over two posts with what, 10 links? I cited the 1990s because it's widely considered to be a time of American prosperity and a time of economic boom after the Cold Wae. I sourced to you that in the middle of that economic boom, Americans opinion on the economy was still very negative. Over time, this sentiment among the public is consistent. You then brought up 2018/2019 where Americans view on the economy was slightly above water - which is rare but does happen - and I explained that this is because of increased partisanship, trait ownership of political parties, and sourced to you that Americans attitude on policy are at extreme odds with reality. I then informed you that Americans attitude towards the economy averages in the low-to-mid 40s over time, which is why I said that Americans attitude towards the economy is almost always bad. Because it almost always is because that's what the average says. I then addressed your repeated misunderstanding of the electorate because you think that only ~30 percent of the public are Republicans. I sourced to you multiple sources explaining that this isn't the case, Independents aren't politically independent at all, and they behave similarly to whatever party they lean to. This also contributes to current polling - which again is at odds with reality. So... ummm... I'll end by pleading with you once again to stop participating in politics because it's genuinely harmful for the MAGA movement to continue. You'd do the country a favor by touching grass or taking up hobbies that don't involve an over indulgence of right wing news. 1 1 2 Link to comment
Archy1221 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 47 minutes ago, Dr. Strangelove said: You then brought up 2018/2019 where Americans view on the economy was slightly above water - A constant 57-68% approval in political terms is much more than “slightly above water 47 minutes ago, Dr. Strangelove said: and I explained that this is because of increased partisanship, trait ownership of political parties, and sourced to you that Americans attitude on policy are at extreme odds with reality Trumps overall approval sucked, but his economic approval was in very good territory. That’s not because of partisanship. You are going into great lengths to avoid saying the economy both for business and for individuals was in great shape. All these sideshow points won’t change that fact. Sorry 47 minutes ago, Dr. Strangelove said: I then informed you that Americans attitude towards the economy averages in the low-to-mid 40s over time, which is why I said that Americans attitude towards the economy is almost always bad. Because it almost always is because that's what the average says. Cool. Talk about “averages” instead of talking about the actual number at the time. Glad you are staying away from the actual relevant number. 47 minutes ago, Dr. Strangelove said: I then addressed your repeated misunderstanding of the electorate because you think that only ~30 percent of the public are Republicans. I sourced to you multiple sources explaining that this isn't the case, Independents aren't politically independent at all, and they behave similarly to whatever party they lean to. This also contributes to current polling - which again is at odds with reality. I am now addressing your repeated misunderstanding of how the electorate felt about Trump and the Trump years. I will try once more. Trumps overall approval was historically low, like The Big Guy. Trump’s economy number was above a historical high approval. Like way above. Or even way way above. People from across the spectrum liked it. It wasn’t a partisan issue. Hope that helps 47 minutes ago, Dr. Strangelove said: So... ummm... I'll end by pleading with you once again to stop participating in politics because it's genuinely harmful for the MAGA movement to continue. You'd do the country a favor by touching grass or taking up hobbies that don't involve an over indulgence of right wing news. So….well, I would ask you to keep voting, but in the interest of all the citizens pocket books and our countries well being, please choose a Better candidate than The Big Guy! DM me if you need any assistance. Always happy to help Grass is still illegal in KS and with my employer so I can’t touch it. Sorry, good talk though. 1 3 Link to comment
Dr. Strangelove Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 8 hours ago, Archy1221 said: Trumps overall approval sucked, but his economic approval was in very good territory. That’s not because of partisanship. You are going into great lengths to avoid saying the economy both for business and for individuals was in great shape. All these sideshow points won’t change that fact. Sorry Your entire problem is that I've never said this or claimed this. Economic performance under Trump was strong. Unemployment was low and GDP growth was positive. This at the expense of a wide deficit via tax cuts for the wealthy which wasn't good, but even for Trump his approval numbers on the Economy were more depressed than they should've been given the real world performance. I simply made a compelling argument that the American public is perpetually unhappy with the economy and explained to you in great detail why that's the case. But you're inventing arguments that aren't being made. Let's make a deal. I'm willing to make a pledge that I'll vote for whichever Presidential candidate you choose - BUT they have to be convicted of fewer than 30 federal charges. If only one candidate fits that criteria, we both vote for them! 1 1 Link to comment
Archy1221 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 7 hours ago, Dr. Strangelove said: Economic performance under Trump was strong. Great first step. 7 hours ago, Dr. Strangelove said: Let's make a deal. I'm willing to make a pledge that I'll vote for whichever Presidential candidate you choose - BUT they have to be convicted of fewer than 30 federal charges. If only one candidate fits that criteria, we both vote for them! Perfect. I really feel like you are starting to come around. You already know who I am voting for whether on ballot or as a write in. Glad you are joining! 1 1 Link to comment
Guy Chamberlin Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 17 hours ago, Archy1221 said: Trumps overall approval sucked, but his economic approval was in very good territory. That’s not because of partisanship. Well the partisan "take" during this time -- fed directly from the President -- was that the American economy was doing better than it ever had in history under Donald Trump, a clear repudiation of the disastrous Obama presidency. No amount of facts -- the economic crisis Obama inherited from Bush, and the 6.5 years of steady growth under Obama that simply continued under Trump -- changed that narrative for conservatives. Nor does the 80 year economic record cited in my earlier post. Biden cites stats that conveniently ignore how much room for growth the pandemic provided. Just as both parties will need to come together to address Social Security, there needs to be an understanding that the post-Reagan era of low taxes and supply side benefits has hugely impacted the middle and working classes, whose loss of purchasing power often gets overlooked in the economic indicators. And while I love "the people" our views of the economy can shift with a seasonal spike in gas prices or cyclical jobs layoffs, never stepping aside to get the big picture and historical perspective. In fairness, many of the world's greatest economists admit it's a science with no laboratory, and nobody is really sure whatever is going to happen next. 1 1 1 Link to comment
Archy1221 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said: No amount of facts -- the economic crisis Obama inherited from Bush, and the 6.5 years of steady growth under Obama HRC ran on fixing the economy 2 Link to comment
Dr. Strangelove Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 6 hours ago, Archy1221 said: You already know who I am voting for whether on ballot or as a write in. Glad you are joining! Viktor Orban? 2 1 Link to comment
Archy1221 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 14 minutes ago, Dr. Strangelove said: Viktor Orban? 14 minutes ago, Dr. Strangelove said: Viktor Orban? Freudian slip eh? Well anyways….Sounds like you don’t understand he isn’t eligible. I’ll give you a resource link to study. Let me know if you have questions. https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/elections/presidential-election-process/requirements-for-the-president-of-the-united-states/ 1 Link to comment
Dr. Strangelove Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 5 minutes ago, Archy1221 said: Freudian slip eh? Well anyways….Sounds like you don’t understand he isn’t eligible. I’ll give you a resource link to study. Let me know if you have questions. https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/elections/presidential-election-process/requirements-for-the-president-of-the-united-states/ Considering Conservatives have a... not so consistent attitude with following the law, particularly when it comes to elections, your voting history causes me to believe that he's the perfect successor for the MAGA movement. 1 Link to comment
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