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I realized we didn't have an actual thread to discuss healthcare reform - just attempts to upend the current law.

 

So I figured I'd make one. I'll start it off with a story I found very interesting, but feel free to discuss whatever else you think is worth talking about.

 

This is a good idea on the part of this group. I wish there was a way to address trade name drugs, since they are by far more expensive, but I'm all for driving down the prices of generics, too. I didn't know others had copied Shkreli's model of jacking up prices of generics to make a quick buck. Shameful. 

 

Intersting to note that Bob Kerrey is on the list of advisors.

 

 

Edited by dudeguyy
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Glad you started this thread.  I saw the tweet and was planning on it.

 

Something has to happen to break up the drug company's power over the market.  

Edited by BigRedBuster
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Thus continues the trend of member of Trump commissions attacking the work of the very commissions they find themselves on.

 

There are a lot of issues that fly under the radar & don't get the coverage they deserve in the era of Trump. Their failure to do anything to address the opioids crisis is one of the most important. This is one of those issues where the typical Trump pronouncements & big speech in front of a camera followed by virtually nothing simply won't work. It's also one where Congress being stingy isn't going to accomplish anything. Austerity cannot fix this issue.

 

 

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I just read through some of the tweets responding to that, BRB. It's a horror show at some of these hospitals. 

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^^^ just saw that, here is another link also on the subject.  sounds like it is just for their employees but it is affecting the

stock prices of other health care companies in early trading - new competition.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-30/amazon-berkshire-jpmorgan-to-set-up-a-health-company-for-staff

 

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46 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

^^^ just saw that, here is another link also on the subject.  sounds like it is just for their employees but it is affecting the

stock prices of other health care companies in early trading - new competition.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-30/amazon-berkshire-jpmorgan-to-set-up-a-health-company-for-staff

 

 

Yes, for right now, it appears it's for their employees.  Which, there are one heck of a lot of employees for these three.  I would assume this would go out to all employees of Berkshire Hathaway's holdings.

 

This appears to be an effort to eliminate the profit insurance companies add to the costs.  However, I'm also interested in seeing how they reduce costs of actual care and procedures.

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I started a thread like this back in November.  It was called: "Real Efforts to reduce Healthcare costs".  Basically the same topic, and there was some decent discussion in there.  I like your title better as a catch-all.  I wonder if it would make sense to merge, or add the old posts to this thread?

 

One of the themes I have seen with articles discussing the causes of high healthcare cost in America is a lot of finger-pointing between Healthcare providers(hospitals), Insurance companies, Drug companies, medical equipment companies, and government entities.

 

All of them are to blame, I think.  The entire system needs fixed.  The efforts discussed above are all positive things, but at the end of the day, Governmental regulations and oversight would be the most effective at controlling prices charged for healthcare.  That would create a domino effect that would force prices down for insurance, drugs and medical equipment, I think.  The "free market" model just shouldn't apply to healthcare, IMO.

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20 minutes ago, Kiyoat Husker said:

I started a thread like this back in November.  It was called: "Real Efforts to reduce Healthcare costs".  Basically the same topic, and there was some decent discussion in there.  I like your title better as a catch-all.  I wonder if it would make sense to merge, or add the old posts to this thread?

 

One of the themes I have seen with articles discussing the causes of high healthcare cost in America is a lot of finger-pointing between Healthcare providers(hospitals), Insurance companies, Drug companies, medical equipment companies, and government entities.

 

All of them are to blame, I think.  The entire system needs fixed.  The efforts discussed above are all positive things, but at the end of the day, Governmental regulations and oversight would be the most effective at controlling prices charged for healthcare.  That would create a domino effect that would force prices down for insurance, drugs and medical equipment, I think.  The "free market" model just shouldn't apply to healthcare, IMO.

Also throw in the litigation - General Liability issues.  We want patient rights enforce & redress protected but provider (doctors) liability insurance is excessively high

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25 minutes ago, TGHusker said:

Also throw in the litigation - General Liability issues.  We want patient rights enforce & redress protected but provider (doctors) liability insurance is excessively high

 

I haven't thought much about that.  Would that be considered "tort law"?  It would be interesting to see if that is different in other developed countries that provide health care.

 

People should always have a legal pathway to protect their rights, though.  It would be interesting to see how tort litigation affects the bottom line in other industries.  One would think that a public service, like law enforcement, would be different from a company that sells its services.  In other words, is it harder or easier to sue a police department, a hospital, or Toyota for damages, and how does that affect those entities financially?

 

isn't @RedDenver involved in law?...... *sends bat symbol*

Edited by Kiyoat Husker

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1 hour ago, Kiyoat Husker said:

 

I haven't thought much about that.  Would that be considered "tort law"?  It would be interesting to see if that is different in other developed countries that provide health care.

 

People should always have a legal pathway to protect their rights, though.  It would be interesting to see how tort litigation affects the bottom line in other industries.  One would think that a public service, like law enforcement, would be different from a company that sells its services.  In other words, is it harder or easier to sue a police department, a hospital, or Toyota for damages, and how does that affect those entities financially?

 

isn't @RedDenver involved in law?...... *sends bat symbol*

No I'm not, but I know several people including one of my brothers that are, so I try to keep up with it.

 

Edit: As for your question, there are sovereignty issues where under certain cases the government can't be sued (I'm not sure of the specifics), but other than that I don't know of any reason that public services would be harder to sue than private ones.

Edited by RedDenver

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15 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

This is interesting and pretty funny. 

 

 

 

An 1800's looney bin had a 10 digit phone number and a website address?

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Scientists (male scientists) still aren't sure if PMS is real. (RE: "menstrual deranged")

Edited by Moiraine

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15 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

Scientists (male scientists) still aren't sure if PMS is real. (RE: "menstrual deranged")

"Female disease" is a great catch-all for those uppity women who want things like voting rights.

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13 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

This is interesting and pretty funny. 

 

 

lol yeah i think most of us would be locked up according to that sheesh  :ahhhhhhhh

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11 hours ago, Big Red 40 said:

lol yeah i think most of us would be locked up according to that sheesh  :ahhhhhhhh

Hahaha!!!

I just saw (and in this exact order):

  • Tobacco & Masturbation
  • Political Excitement
  • Politics
  • Religious Enthusiasm
  • Fever and Loss of Law Suit
  • Asthma
  • Bad Company

Few more:

  • Bad Whiskey
  • Business Nerves
  • Decoyed into the Army
  • Deranged Masturbation

 

This has to be parody.

 

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3 hours ago, RedDenver said:

Hahaha!!!

I just saw (and in this exact order):

  • Tobacco & Masturbation
  • Political Excitement
  • Politics
  • Religious Enthusiasm
  • Fever and Loss of Law Suit
  • Asthma
  • Bad Company

Few more:

  • Bad Whiskey
  • Business Nerves
  • Decoyed into the Army
  • Deranged Masturbation

 

This has to be parody.

 

 

 

Guess I'm going to the asylum

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Interesting article.

 

 

This skews the data when looking simply at what Americans pay compared to other countries.  Who is paying for the research?

Quote

How drugs are paid for varies among the countries studied. A recent White House report recommended finding a way to get foreign nations to "price drugs at levels that appropriately reward innovation, rather than disproportionately putting that that burden on American patients and taxpayers."

 

 

You have doctors coming out of med school with $400,000 - $500,000 debt.  You better expect to pay them a lot.  The cost of the education is outlandish.

Quote

 

The U.S. had high levels of administrative burden, the researchers found. In the country, 8 percent of GDP was spent on administration and governance compared with the average of 3 percent of GDP. 

Labor costs also contributed to the spending disparity. Salaries for generalists, specialists and nurses were all higher in the U.S. than in the other countries.

 

 

Totally unacceptable.  However, I blame our society on this more than the healthcare system.  The healthcare system can only do so much.  People have to take more responsibility for their health with good life choices.

Quote

And while the U.S. spent the most on health care, it performed the worst on some measures. Life expectancy of 78.8 years was lower than the average of 81.7 years among the countries studied. Infant mortality was the highest, at 5.8 deaths per 1,000 live births in the U.S., compared with the average of 3.6 per 1,000.

 

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On your last point - that's why I'm all for a soda tax with all revenue going towards healthcare, and thought NY's idea to ban large sodas was a good idea. It's also another reason maybe there shouldn't be corn subsidies. The government is subsidizing corn syrup.

 

People being unhealthy usually costs other people $ too.

 

Just found out right now that Seattle implemented a 1.75 cents/oz soda tax in January.

Edited by Moiraine

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1 minute ago, RedDenver said:

@BigRedBuster, I don't think you can blame societal choices for infant mortality. That seems to be a clear indicator of the quality of the healthcare system.

 

Yes I can.  I believe you would find that many of those infant deaths are because of poor decisions made by the mother/parents during pregnancy.

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1 minute ago, RedDenver said:

@BigRedBuster, I don't think you can blame societal choices for infant mortality. That seems to be a clear indicator of the quality of the healthcare system.

 

 

The health of the mother is a huge factor.

 

But I'm not saying healthcare isn't another huge factor.

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Just now, BigRedBuster said:

Yes I can.  I believe you would find that many of those infant deaths are because of poor decisions made by the mother/parents during pregnancy.

 

Just now, Moiraine said:

The health of the mother is a huge factor.

 

But I'm not saying healthcare isn't another huge factor.

Does anyone have data to backup these claims either way? In the absence of evidence, I think the healthcare system is more indicative of infant mortality than societal choices.

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13 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

 

Does anyone have data to backup these claims either way? In the absence of evidence, I think the healthcare system is more indicative of infant mortality than societal choices.

 

 

I'm not saying 1 is more important than the other. But it's pretty common knowledge that the health of the mother is extremely important.

 

But here's one example:

 

http://chgd.umich.edu/obesity-among-mothers-doubles-infant-mortality-rates/

 

 

The mother's health and our healthcare system are interrelated though, obviously. A woman who is poor and doesn't have insurance, or good insurance, may not be able to take prenatal vitamins, or do whatever else a pregnant lady needs to do. I've never been a pregnant lady so I don't know what all those things are.

Edited by Moiraine

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To go along with Moiraine's link.

 

LINK

 

Quote

The study, published Tuesday in the journal JAMA, reveals that for the years 2013-2014, the obesity prevalence was 35% for men and 40% for women. When looking at trends over time, the researchers found that from the year 2005 to 2014 there were significant and steady increases in the number of American women who were very obese.

 

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24 minutes ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

I'm not saying 1 is more important than the other. But it's pretty common knowledge that the health of the mother is extremely important.

 

But here's one example:

 

http://chgd.umich.edu/obesity-among-mothers-doubles-infant-mortality-rates/

 

 

The mother's health and our healthcare system are interrelated though, obviously. A woman who is poor and doesn't have insurance, or good insurance, may not be able to take prenatal vitamins, or do whatever else a pregnant lady needs to do. I've never been a pregnant lady so I don't know what all those things are.

 

1 minute ago, BigRedBuster said:

To go along with Moiraine's link.

 

LINK

 

 

Interesting, I'll have to read those more carefully later.

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29 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

Yes I can.  I believe you would find that many of those infant deaths are because of poor decisions made by the mother/parents during pregnancy.

My NICU wife agrees.

 

 

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https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternalinfanthealth/infantmortality.htm

 

2018 CDC info.

 

Quote

 infant mortality rate is an important marker of the overall health of a society. In 2015, the infant mortality rate in the United States was 5.9 deaths per 1,000 live births.

 

They break it down to these (deaths per 1000 live births) by states - which is pretty interesting.  I'd like to lay the Medicade map over this - my layperson's eyes show a pretty interesting match up.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/infant_mortality_rates/infant_mortality.htm

 

Then when you compare vs. other nations ...

 

5aad990b74e90_ScreenShot2018-03-17at6_38_34PM.png.19aa62caf7f5de120fe4038ec995c71d.png

 

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20 minutes ago, Clifford Franklin said:

This is a good example of very poor governance. Letting politics get in the way of what science tells us works.

 

 

 

 

 

In this case common sense tells us what works too. The common sense is backed up by science but you have to be a moron to think this was a waste of $. Especially if you're actually pro-life and not just pretending to be for political gain.

Edited by Moiraine
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These are the types of situations where I just don't understand why we don't just pay the bill for a vet to use the normal healthcare system.  Why does a vet need to drive 4 hours just to get a Coloscopy when he probably is passing multiple hospitals that can easily accomplish the same thing....without the scheduling headache?

 

 

 

 

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On a more serious note, the way to lower the costs of healthcare is to completely remove the insurance companies, or at the minimum, force them to be non-profit.  The problem is, insurance companies are corrupt, greedy, profit-mongering entities who have people who will always find a way to get around any law.  We would literally need an agency the size of the IRS just to watch and monitor insurance companies.

 

Then there is big pharma...Deliberately over-pricing things to 10x or more over what they should cost.  

 

Healthcare SHOULD NOT be a for profit enterprise.

 

And I would be remiss if I didn't mention the final piece of the high cost problem: trial lawyers and people who will sue doctors for the most trivial of reasons.  I see these ads on tv all the time for class action lawsuits against healthcare providers.  This crap needs to be severely restricted.

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6 hours ago, Making Chimichangas said:

On a more serious note, the way to lower the costs of healthcare is to completely remove the insurance companies, or at the minimum, force them to be non-profit.  The problem is, insurance companies are corrupt, greedy, profit-mongering entities who have people who will always find a way to get around any law.

 

Then there is big pharma...Deliberately over-pricing things to 10x or more over what they should cost.  

I agree with tort system reform, though it's more easy said than done.

 

Solvency, which is related to an insurance company's rating, is a good thing.

 

Do you know what all goes in to obtaining the patent on a drug?  Do you know how long a patent is good for?

 

I realize it's easy to point a finger at "evil" corporate America, but we are a capitalistic market, right?

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14 minutes ago, TheSker said:

I agree with tort system reform, though it's more easy said than done.

 

Solvency, which is related to an insurance company's rating, is a good thing.

 

Do you know what all goes in to obtaining the patent on a drug?  Do you know how long a patent is good for?

 

I realize it's easy to point a finger at "evil" corporate America, but we are a capitalistic market, right?

You convieniently left out the very next line. 

 

Healthcare should not be a for profit enterprise. 

 

Yes we are a capitalistic market, but must we have this ideology for every facet of our lives? Seems leveraging someones poor health for as much cash  as possible is creating an unsustainable system. 

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2 hours ago, TheSker said:

I agree with tort system reform, though it's more easy said than done.

 

Solvency, which is related to an insurance company's rating, is a good thing.

 

Do you know what all goes in to obtaining the patent on a drug?  Do you know how long a patent is good for?

 

I realize it's easy to point a finger at "evil" corporate America, but we are a capitalistic market, right?

 

Capitalism isn't the issue here.  Price gouging by greedy pharma corporations are the problem.  

 

Quote

 

Big Pharma

 

"On page 17 you’ll find the above table which is an analysis of the consolidated statements of income for Pfizer. You can see from the first line that Pfizer reported just over $67 billion in revenue in 2011. A few lines down you can see that they spent just over $9 billion on research and development that same year. OK, $9 billion is a lot of money. It was nearly 14% of their total revenue.

But what’s really interesting is that you can see that Pfizer spent more than twice as much on Marketing (selling, informational and administrative expenses) as they spent on research; over $19 billion! And look at their profit for that year. They made just over $10 billion in net income (after taxes)."

 

 

 

So Pfizer spent 9 billion on R&D and 19 billion on marketing?  Seems to me that your implied argument of obtaining patents is expensive is pretty flimsy, given Pfizer's net profit of 10 billion.

 

And if we as an American society truly want to bring down the cost of healthcare, we have to address the elephant in the room: GREED. 

 

And point of clarification: I'm talking about greed on the part of all parties involved

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2 hours ago, Nebfanatic said:

You convieniently left out the very next line. 

 

Healthcare should not be a for profit enterprise. 

 

Yes we are a capitalistic market, but must we have this ideology for every facet of our lives? Seems leveraging someones poor health for as much cash  as possible is creating an unsustainable system. 

 

Thank you. 

 

And also, the concept of exploiting people who are poor and/or the most vunerable is pretty sleazy.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Nebfanatic said:

You convieniently left out the very next line. 

 

Healthcare should not be a for profit enterprise. 

 

Yes we are a capitalistic market, but must we have this ideology for every facet of our lives? Seems leveraging someones poor health for as much cash  as possible is creating an unsustainable system. 

There is not for profit healthcare available to those who qualify financially.

 

One if the better aspects of a market demand or capitalistic system is drawing top level talent.  In other words, quality of healthcare can suffer.

 

Answers are not always as easy as "we should just........"

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