Is it okay to be a gay college athlete?

[Roark]

Why does it matter if someone has a problem with gays or not? The beauty of this country is that you are allowed to discriminate against others (not talking about work settings or other similar scenarios) for whatever reason you want while also being able to like just about anything that you want to like for whatever reason. If someone has no problem with gays, great. If someone has a problem, who cares? If they have deep-seeded beliefs why not just let them go with that? Because one or two guys on a message board have a problem with an openly gay Husker won't be grounds for any disciplinary action whatsoever. At the same time, his dislike for that player due to his sexual orientation isn't (or at least shouldn't) rile anyone up to the point that they become upset that someone would think/feel that way. A lot of people dislike Taylor Martinez because he appears to be a smarmy, self-centered jerk. Although many disagree, I don't see the same kind of outcry protecting smarmy, self-centered jerks that I'm seeing here. What's the difference? Respect a person's right to discriminate.

Yup.

 

People discriminate all the time. Personally, I find myself being a lot nicer to gorgeous women than to fat and/or ugly women, for example.

 

I could care less about someone being gay. However, if someone believes that being gay is wrong, then that's their problem... I may disagree with them, and attempt to debate them over it, but if they choose to ignore me then so be it... But when the government gets involved in state-sanctioned discrimination, that's when I have a problem.

[bigg10]

Its not just having sex with men to me. First off, I believe that any sex outside of marriage is morally wrong. It goes against my faith. And because I also believe that marriage is between a man and a women, a man having sex with another man is wrong. It all comes down to my faith. If you don't share my same beliefs, than you will not agree with me.

Right, and they are saying hey, we are here to debate you on the subject and tell you our beliefs.

But like I was pointing out to them, there has to be somewhere where their "open minds" just simply wont go. So trying to convince someone in a debate is simply put, trying to instill your beliefs in someone else but at the same time knowing there are some places they would not go themselves! Now I do live my life by my own moral code and it is, pretty much as long as it does'nt affect me or my family, I dont care, cross that line and you'll be calling down the thunder. With that attitude, I am open to alot of different things and alot less stressed. But I try not to make people uncomfortable and for the most part people are doing ok at not making me uncomfortable. Some peoples level of comfortability is less than others and not always about the same thing. Thats how it works, some people are not comfortable around other races, some are not comfortable around religion, some people are not comfortable around members of the oppsite sex (they get nervous around them) and yes some people are not comfortable around gay men and or gay women. It would be a great world if we were all just comfortable, but there is so much division (really like equation wise) that this is a pipe dream. We can't all agree on everything and if we did someone would be calling all the shots and everyone else would just be agreeing .

So.............. back to the original question. SHOULD GUYS BE OPENLY GAY ON FOOTBALL TEAMS.

Does it affect me or my family? Pry not

Does it affect other players on a team? I don't know and dont care

Should it affect other people on the team? NO

Could it affect other people on the team? Yes

How many? Dont know

How many possibly? A pretty good chunk, I would guess.

Allow it? No

 

What if we are wrong? Minimal damage done.

What if we allow it and are wrong? Potential for medium damage, to recruiting, fans, sales of hats/shirts

 

Anything else??????

[LNCBorn]

It is very clear that homosexuality is NOT a CHOICE!! Most gay individuals do not get sexually stimulated by the opposite sex, so that is there only option. Experts mostly agree that it is genetic or something that is instilled in a person in there developmental years (way before a person can intellectually decide for themselves what type of person they are attracted to). Is sad to me that a vast majority of homosexual suicides are from religious families. The gaurantee that a gay person is going to hell must be a huge weight to bear for our young that did not "chose" who they are attracted too. I would say to anyone who thinks it is a choice than put it to the test yourself. Ready! If your straight then now you chose to get stimulated by the same sex, even just mentally not physically. Just once, nobody will know! No Luck huh! Some choice.

I think everyone is bisexual. Just a matter of where on the scale you fall. Are you 99.999999 percent hetero or homo or somewhere in between.

[The Dude]

A person's sexuality should have absolutely no bearing on an athlete's opportunity to play a sport or the fan support. If you think any different, then that says a lot about you.

 

Discrimination is not to be tolerated, ever.

 

 

and lmao @ anyone suggesting sexuality is a "choice"

 

couldn't agree more. People do not choose to be gay.

 

There's two components to that IMO, do they choose what they are attracted to? Probably not (although some do I'm sure)

 

Do they choose to act on it? Yes, they could always choose not to act on their feelings.

 

In the same breath murderers could say they don't have a choice, they have problems so on and so forth. I would agree the feelings are there, but you always have a choice on how you act, always.

 

Every lifestyle is a choice, sexual orientation, drug use, alcohol use, tobacco use, religion. All life is, is a series of choices. Some may be very difficult or confusing choices, some are no brainers, but they are all choices.

 

Are you suggesting that gay people can choose to just... not be gay? Would it reasonable for me to tell you to stop acting on your 'feelings of heterosexuality'? Of course not. This isn't akin to choosing to not have that extra cheeseburger because you're on a diet. Companionship is a fundamental human desire, and to suggest that consenting gay adults not act on their feelings, which would require them to either stay single their entire life, or be incredibly unhappy in a forced heterosexual relationship, is nothing short of ridiculous.

 

Not suggesting anything, just saying that they have a choice to live that lifestyle or not. That choice has benefits and consequences, just like eating an extra cheeseburger. You may not be able to control wanting a cheeseburger, but you do have a choice if you eat it or not, right?

The difference is human beings are hard-wired to have sex. We're not hard-wired to eat cheeseburgers.

 

There are humans that choose to be celibate, right? How can that be if they are "hard-wired" for it?

 

This gets in to nature vs nurture as discussed before. One thing that is certain, someone can choose if they act on their tendencies or not. I am not saying that is right or wrong, or if those tendencies are natural or a result of experience, but that is a choice.

Just because some people choose to be celibate doesn't change the fact that sex is a part of our basic instincts. What are you actually arguing here? Are you saying gays should be celibate? Why?

[knapplc]

Right, and they are saying hey, we are here to debate you on the subject and tell you our beliefs.

 

Right, and so we're clear, ALL I am doing is debating this. You are welcome to your beliefs, just like lionsfan and anyone else. I am not about to tell you that you cannot have those beliefs, but I will tell you I think they are wrong. You will tell me you think my belief is wrong, we'll discuss it, and hopefully we'll all come out a little wiser for the talk. No matter how many words we use, neither of us will "prove" our stances to be correct. It is in the discussion of our beliefs that we all benefit.

 

But like I was pointing out to them, there has to be somewhere where their "open minds" just simply wont go. So trying to convince someone in a debate is simply put, trying to instill your beliefs in someone else but at the same time knowing there are some places they would not go themselves! Now I do live my life by my own moral code and it is, pretty much as long as it does'nt affect me or my family, I dont care, cross that line and you'll be calling down the thunder. With that attitude, I am open to alot of different things and alot less stressed. But I try not to make people uncomfortable and for the most part people are doing ok at not making me uncomfortable. Some peoples level of comfortability is less than others and not always about the same thing. Thats how it works, some people are not comfortable around other races, some are not comfortable around religion, some people are not comfortable around members of the oppsite sex (they get nervous around them) and yes some people are not comfortable around gay men and or gay women. It would be a great world if we were all just comfortable, but there is so much division (really like equation wise) that this is a pipe dream. We can't all agree on everything and if we did someone would be calling all the shots and everyone else would just be agreeing .

 

Are you more open-minded than me, since you won't change your stance on this subject, just like I won't? I would say that would leave us both at the same level of open-mindedness, wouldn't you?

 

Too often this society uses the term "open mind" to mean "believe what I believe." Having an open mind simply means that you accept a wide range of possibilities before you decide which side of the fence you fall on in a particular discussion. It doesn't mean that you default to accept any particular position or point of view. To illustrate, here's my answers to your questions below (in bold red):

 

 

So.............. back to the original question. SHOULD GUYS BE OPENLY GAY ON FOOTBALL TEAMS.

Does it affect me or my family? Pry not No

Does it affect other players on a team? I don't know and dont care No

Should it affect other people on the team? NO No

Could it affect other people on the team? Yes Yes

How many? Dont know Don't know

How many possibly? A pretty good chunk, I would guess. Could be a lot, could be a little. Don't know.

Allow it? No Yes

What if we are wrong? Minimal damage done. Minimal damage done if we allow it, and are wrong

What if we allow it and are wrong? Potential for medium damage, to recruiting, fans, sales of hats/shirts Potential for damage, but likely not that much either way.

 

Nearly identical answers, aside from "Should we allow it?" Looks like we both have allowed for a wide range of possibilities, with different results, wouldn't you say?

[HuskerNMO]

A person's sexuality should have absolutely no bearing on an athlete's opportunity to play a sport or the fan support. If you think any different, then that says a lot about you.

 

Discrimination is not to be tolerated, ever.

 

 

and lmao @ anyone suggesting sexuality is a "choice"

 

couldn't agree more. People do not choose to be gay.

 

There's two components to that IMO, do they choose what they are attracted to? Probably not (although some do I'm sure)

 

Do they choose to act on it? Yes, they could always choose not to act on their feelings.

 

In the same breath murderers could say they don't have a choice, they have problems so on and so forth. I would agree the feelings are there, but you always have a choice on how you act, always.

 

Every lifestyle is a choice, sexual orientation, drug use, alcohol use, tobacco use, religion. All life is, is a series of choices. Some may be very difficult or confusing choices, some are no brainers, but they are all choices.

 

Are you suggesting that gay people can choose to just... not be gay? Would it reasonable for me to tell you to stop acting on your 'feelings of heterosexuality'? Of course not. This isn't akin to choosing to not have that extra cheeseburger because you're on a diet. Companionship is a fundamental human desire, and to suggest that consenting gay adults not act on their feelings, which would require them to either stay single their entire life, or be incredibly unhappy in a forced heterosexual relationship, is nothing short of ridiculous.

 

Not suggesting anything, just saying that they have a choice to live that lifestyle or not. That choice has benefits and consequences, just like eating an extra cheeseburger. You may not be able to control wanting a cheeseburger, but you do have a choice if you eat it or not, right?

The difference is human beings are hard-wired to have sex. We're not hard-wired to eat cheeseburgers.

 

There are humans that choose to be celibate, right? How can that be if they are "hard-wired" for it?

 

This gets in to nature vs nurture as discussed before. One thing that is certain, someone can choose if they act on their tendencies or not. I am not saying that is right or wrong, or if those tendencies are natural or a result of experience, but that is a choice.

Just because some people choose to be celibate doesn't change the fact that sex is a part of our basic instincts. What are you actually arguing here? Are you saying gays should be celibate? Why?

 

I think it's a very clear point that acting on ones instincts is a choice, plain and simple. Therefore living ANY lifestyle is a choice on the most fundamental levels. You may not be able to control how you feel, but you can control how you act.

 

Not saying anything other than living that lifestyle (or any lifestyle for that matter) is a choice, and every choice has its benefits and issues associated with it.

 

Being gay is no worse than lying, cheating, stealing or other things that are in the bible from a Christian viewpoint. If Christians spent as much time showing love and compassion to people that they feel are sinners rather than trying to legislate our moral compasses, we would accomplish a heck of a lot more and probably be disliked a heck of a lot less.

[bhamHusker]

I think it's a very clear point that acting on ones instincts is a choice, plain and simple. Therefore living ANY lifestyle is a choice on the most fundamental levels. You may not be able to control how you feel, but you can control how you act.

 

Not saying anything other than living that lifestyle (or any lifestyle for that matter) is a choice, and every choice has its benefits and issues associated with it.

 

Being gay is no worse than lying, cheating, stealing or other things that are in the bible from a Christian viewpoint. If Christians spent as much time showing love and compassion to people that they feel are sinners rather than trying to legislate our moral compasses, we would accomplish a heck of a lot more and probably be disliked a heck of a lot less.

So for the first x number of years of your life before you popped your cherry, you weren't straight, right? You only became straight when you chose to dip your wick in some lady business, right?

 

Also, and this isn't directed at you, jliehr, but at anyone hiding behind their religion on the matter: What a person's preferred book of fairy tales says on the subject should be irrelevant to a decision of public policy. We don't all share your belief that some mysterious space ghost made us all and gets mad when we stick our naughty bits where some bronze age witch doctor says we shouldn't. Or when we eat shellfish. Or when we opt not to kill our friends and neighbors that don't share our beliefs. You're free to believe whatever nonsense you want, but if you want to deny someone the same opportunities available to anyone else, you'd better have a better reason than some old mythological nonsense.

[knapplc]

And with that, I'm moving this to Politics and Religion. It probably should have gone there in the first place, so don't think I'm singling you out, bhamHusker. This is just that kind of discussion.

 

Feel free to continue the conversation here, folks.

[Caven]

I would support the player fully and have zero problems with them.

 

If I missed this point then I apologize:

 

The biggest arguement generally made against this is the locker room comraderie. They all change/shower/etc together and (justified or not) concern is always stated about person X staring at and objectifying while in the locker room.

[HuskerNMO]

I think it's a very clear point that acting on ones instincts is a choice, plain and simple. Therefore living ANY lifestyle is a choice on the most fundamental levels. You may not be able to control how you feel, but you can control how you act.

 

Not saying anything other than living that lifestyle (or any lifestyle for that matter) is a choice, and every choice has its benefits and issues associated with it.

 

Being gay is no worse than lying, cheating, stealing or other things that are in the bible from a Christian viewpoint. If Christians spent as much time showing love and compassion to people that they feel are sinners rather than trying to legislate our moral compasses, we would accomplish a heck of a lot more and probably be disliked a heck of a lot less.

So for the first x number of years of your life before you popped your cherry, you weren't straight, right? You only became straight when you chose to dip your wick in some lady business, right?

 

Also, and this isn't directed at you, jliehr, but at anyone hiding behind their religion on the matter: What a person's preferred book of fairy tales says on the subject should be irrelevant to a decision of public policy. We don't all share your belief that some mysterious space ghost made us all and gets mad when we stick our naughty bits where some bronze age witch doctor says we shouldn't. Or when we eat shellfish. Or when we opt not to kill our friends and neighbors that don't share our beliefs. You're free to believe whatever nonsense you want, but if you want to deny someone the same opportunities available to anyone else, you'd better have a better reason than some old mythological nonsense.

 

You're confusing feeling vs actions.

 

An example, I feel like I have to go to the bathroom, I have a choice to not go to the bathroom, to go on the floor where I am, or find a restroom.

 

As far as the second part, I don't really know what to say to that other than, super.

[knapplc]

The biggest arguement generally made against this is the locker room comraderie. They all change/shower/etc together and (justified or not) concern is always stated about person X staring at and objectifying while in the locker room.

 

After millennia of men objectifying women, whistling as they go by, talking to their chest or otherwise ogling them, we're really going to make the claim that gay dudes can't share the locker room because it's offensive? I don't think that's a strong argument.

[bigg10]

Right, and they are saying hey, we are here to debate you on the subject and tell you our beliefs.

 

Right, and so we're clear, ALL I am doing is debating this. You are welcome to your beliefs, just like lionsfan and anyone else. I am not about to tell you that you cannot have those beliefs, but I will tell you I think they are wrong. You will tell me you think my belief is wrong, we'll discuss it, and hopefully we'll all come out a little wiser for the talk. No matter how many words we use, neither of us will "prove" our stances to be correct. It is in the discussion of our beliefs that we all benefit.

 

But like I was pointing out to them, there has to be somewhere where their "open minds" just simply wont go. So trying to convince someone in a debate is simply put, trying to instill your beliefs in someone else but at the same time knowing there are some places they would not go themselves! Now I do live my life by my own moral code and it is, pretty much as long as it does'nt affect me or my family, I dont care, cross that line and you'll be calling down the thunder. With that attitude, I am open to alot of different things and alot less stressed. But I try not to make people uncomfortable and for the most part people are doing ok at not making me uncomfortable. Some peoples level of comfortability is less than others and not always about the same thing. Thats how it works, some people are not comfortable around other races, some are not comfortable around religion, some people are not comfortable around members of the oppsite sex (they get nervous around them) and yes some people are not comfortable around gay men and or gay women. It would be a great world if we were all just comfortable, but there is so much division (really like equation wise) that this is a pipe dream. We can't all agree on everything and if we did someone would be calling all the shots and everyone else would just be agreeing .

 

Are you more open-minded than me, since you won't change your stance on this subject, just like I won't? I would say that would leave us both at the same level of open-mindedness, wouldn't you?

 

Too often this society uses the term "open mind" to mean "believe what I believe." Having an open mind simply means that you accept a wide range of possibilities before you decide which side of the fence you fall on in a particular discussion. It doesn't mean that you default to accept any particular position or point of view. To illustrate, here's my answers to your questions below (in bold red):

 

 

So.............. back to the original question. SHOULD GUYS BE OPENLY GAY ON FOOTBALL TEAMS.

Does it affect me or my family? Pry not No

Does it affect other players on a team? I don't know and dont care No

Should it affect other people on the team? NO No

Could it affect other people on the team? Yes Yes

How many? Dont know Don't know

How many possibly? A pretty good chunk, I would guess. Could be a lot, could be a little. Don't know.

Allow it? No Yes

What if we are wrong? Minimal damage done. Minimal damage done if we allow it, and are wrong

What if we allow it and are wrong? Potential for medium damage, to recruiting, fans, sales of hats/shirts Potential for damage, but likely not that much either way.

 

Nearly identical answers, aside from "Should we allow it?" Looks like we both have allowed for a wide range of possibilities, with different results, wouldn't you say?

Pretty much. I guess it helps when you have known gay people and what the general idea between them is. I just dont like it when someone says, oh it's because your a homophobe or oh it's against this or that religion. Really I have weighed the situation the best I can and tried to use as little "outside" influence as I could and this is what I think. Like I said we cant all come to the same answer, and I would be way freaked out if we did. I also should have added, besides maybe in prision, (and they say that is not a gay thing anyway), gay dudes are not going to come at you in the shower, but some may have a problem with it anyway. I remember the first time I met my ex brother inalaw and his "friend", I found out they were gay on the ride there, and the stupid cr@p that came out of my mouth. I was a homophobe, now way around it. He knew it and never in 18 years did those two make me uncomfortable, but I am not everyone and am not on a football team and sharing the same activities with them either.

[bhamHusker]

You're confusing feeling vs actions.

 

An example, I feel like I have to go to the bathroom, I have a choice to not go to the bathroom, to go on the floor where I am, or find a restroom.

 

As far as the second part, I don't really know what to say to that other than, super.

I don't think that I'm the one confused on the subject. Choosing to hold it doesn't change the fact that you have to pee. That Hetero Joe didn't act on the fact that he is straight until he happened to get lucky one day doesn't make him any less straight during his years of abstinence. Harry the Homo is just as homosexual whether or not he chooses to avail himself of an opportunity to get his gay sex on. Just as with straight romantic relationships, there's more to being gay than the gay sex.

[HuskerNMO]

You're confusing feeling vs actions.

 

An example, I feel like I have to go to the bathroom, I have a choice to not go to the bathroom, to go on the floor where I am, or find a restroom.

 

As far as the second part, I don't really know what to say to that other than, super.

I don't think that I'm the one confused on the subject. Choosing to hold it doesn't change the fact that you have to pee. That Hetero Joe didn't act on the fact that he is straight until he happened to get lucky one day doesn't make him any less straight during his years of abstinence. Harry the Homo is just as homosexual whether or not he chooses to avail himself of an opportunity to get his gay sex on. Just as with straight romantic relationships, there's more to being gay than the gay sex.

 

Feelings and actions are different.

 

People think about killing others, the ones that do it are murderers, the ones that don't, aren't.

 

People think about taking advantage of really drunk or passed out women, the ones that do it are rapists, the ones that don't aren't.

 

To be clear, I am not trying to equate those things with sexual orientation, just pointing out that there is a difference between feelings and actions.

 

For some people, those internal feelings never change about their orientation, I have posted a CDC study that showed between the ages of 18-44, 87% of people who have had same-sex experiences have also had opposite-sex experiences. Greater than 5 of 6 people that identified themselves as "gay" had gone one way or the other. That to me sounds like they are choosing, and changing their minds. How else can you explain it?

 

I've known a girl for going on 13 years now, she was straight in high school, during the college years she "found" herself and was gay, by time she was 26 she changed her mind back and is now married to a guy and has 2 kids.

 

That's just one example, but I promise you it's far more common than one side would want you to beleive.

 

But to be VERY clear, I do not think the government should tolerate discrimination based on sexual orientation even if I disagree with it. I do however think that it would be wrong and unconstitutional to force churches to perform or recognize same-sex unions.

[knapplc]

Pretty much. I guess it helps when you have known gay people and what the general idea between them is. I just dont like it when someone says, oh it's because your a homophobe or oh it's against this or that religion. Really I have weighed the situation the best I can and tried to use as little "outside" influence as I could and this is what I think. Like I said we cant all come to the same answer, and I would be way freaked out if we did. I also should have added, besides maybe in prision, (and they say that is not a gay thing anyway), gay dudes are not going to come at you in the shower, but some may have a problem with it anyway. I remember the first time I met my ex brother inalaw and his "friend", I found out they were gay on the ride there, and the stupid cr@p that came out of my mouth. I was a homophobe, now way around it. He knew it and never in 18 years did those two make me uncomfortable, but I am not everyone and am not on a football team and sharing the same activities with them either.

 

Lincoln has been, for a long time, one of the larger gay communities per capita in America. When I went to UNL it was in the top five or ten (from an article a friend researched for The Rag, no link). There's a sizable gay population here in Nebraska, and it's one of the fastest increasing in the US (#4 in the nation, 71% increase LINK - see Page 4). I would be curious to know if we have gained any recruits based on our LGBT population. I doubt that's something we'll ever know, but it'd be interesting.