"Not a true Christian"

[Hammerhead]

I had this discussion with my wife a few days ago, and how the phrase "that's very christian of you" always annoys me.

 

I use that phrase from time to time, generally in a fashion that's decidedly opposite of what you're thinking of here...

 

If you have to be a good person because you believe your religion says you should be, are you really that good of a person?

[Yossarian]

I had this discussion with my wife a few days ago, and how the phrase "that's very christian of you" always annoys me.

 

I use that phrase from time to time, generally in a fashion that's decidedly opposite of what you're thinking of here...

 

If you have to be a good person because you believe your religion says you should be, are you really that good of a person?

 

I'm a good person because the voices in my head tell me to.

[johnnyrodgers20]

I shoot from the hip, playboy. But you're right, I'm not for everyone.

 

Consider it apple cider vinegar.

 

Your 'from the hip' shootin' style is usually pretty entertaining. Not to get all mushy, but I'm a big fan. As has been well-documented in past threads, I just have a different approach to the issue.

 

 

My take on Christianity is pretty simple, and it's Bible-based. It comes from Matthew 7: 9-11:

Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?

Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?

If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

 

 

 

 

 

God is omnipotent, meaning there is nothing at all he cannot do. So, if God Is Love, and he loves me like a father, then what am I doing here? Why aren't I in heaven already? Why was I born in this environment of sin, and not directly into heaven?

 

Heaven is the bread, or the fish. Earth is the stone, or the snake. A God who loves me more than I love my wife or daughter would never put me in this environment. I cannot fathom doing this to my child.

 

The story falls apart for me there. There's more, some deeply personal stuff and some logical stuff, but the bottom line is, I don't buy it.

 

 

God placed us here to have a personal relationship with him we could have had all we wanted and everlasting life. But Eve decided they were smarter than God and talked Adam into eating from the tree of knowledge (sometimes called the tree of good and evil). You assume he just put us here to suffer. He placed us in the Garden of Eden (Eutopia) but man messed up the contract with God. So we were cast out of Eden much like you would punish your child. Now I believe God is treating us like an adult child, if you have a child who lives on their own now can you protect them every day? Can you tell them how they should act what to do with their money and so on? God is allowing us to have free choice, we know the consequences of our actions. All of the suffering is caused by man's refusal to abide by God and his laws. It is not by God that we are in this cesspool but by our own actions.

[knapplc]

God placed us here to have a personal relationship with him we could have had all we wanted and everlasting life. But Eve decided they were smarter than God and talked Adam into eating from the tree of knowledge (sometimes called the tree of good and evil). You assume he just put us here to suffer. He placed us in the Garden of Eden (Eutopia) but man messed up the contract with God. So we were cast out of Eden much like you would punish your child. Now I believe God is treating us like an adult child, if you have a child who lives on their own now can you protect them every day. Can you tell them how they should act what to do with their money and so on. God is allowing us to have free choice, we know the consequences of our actions. All of the suffering is caused by man's refusal to abide by God and his laws. It is not by God that we are in this cesspool but by our own actions.

 

Unfortunately, this fails at the first sentence. We can't have a personal relationship with God on Earth because he isn't here interacting with us. To have a personal relationship with God we need to go to Heaven, where there is no sin and hence, no separation from God, ever, for anyone. The very fact that we are here on Earth obviates God, who loves us unconditionally, yet places us on Earth, the only place where we can earn our way out of Heaven.

 

We are God's children, correct? Which of your children would you put in a cave, away from every material advantage you could possibly give them, and - more crucially - away from your presence?

[johnnyrodgers20]

God placed us here to have a personal relationship with him we could have had all we wanted and everlasting life. But Eve decided they were smarter than God and talked Adam into eating from the tree of knowledge (sometimes called the tree of good and evil). You assume he just put us here to suffer. He placed us in the Garden of Eden (Eutopia) but man messed up the contract with God. So we were cast out of Eden much like you would punish your child. Now I believe God is treating us like an adult child, if you have a child who lives on their own now can you protect them every day. Can you tell them how they should act what to do with their money and so on. God is allowing us to have free choice, we know the consequences of our actions. All of the suffering is caused by man's refusal to abide by God and his laws. It is not by God that we are in this cesspool but by our own actions.

 

Unfortunately, this fails at the first sentence. We can't have a personal relationship with God on Earth because he isn't here interacting with us. To have a personal relationship with God we need to go to Heaven, where there is no sin and hence, no separation from God, ever, for anyone. The very fact that we are here on Earth obviates God, who loves us unconditionally, yet places us on Earth, the only place where we can earn our way out of Heaven.

 

We are God's children, correct? Which of your children would you put in a cave, away from every material advantage you could possibly give them, and - more crucially - away from your presence?

 

Wrong, before Adam and Eve sinned they had a personal realtionship with God. He talked to them that's how they knew about the tree of knowledge and not to eat from it. Remember they hid because they knew they had done wrong and that God would come looking for them, they were frightened. NOW we can have a personal relationship with God but it is spiritual in nature but Adam and Eve had a much different relationship before they sinned.

[knapplc]

Who put the Tree in the Garden of Eden? Why even put it there?

[johnnyrodgers20]

Who put the Tree in the Garden of Eden? Why even put it there?

 

 

You're changing the subject but I am not intelligent enough to tell you why an all knowing God would do that. That would be conjecture on my part. Only God knows and I think I will wait a little while until I ask him.

[Yossarian]

Who put the Tree in the Garden of Eden? Why even put it there?

 

Plus - who put the "ram" in "rama lama ding dong"?

[Landlord]

God placed us here to have a personal relationship with him we could have had all we wanted and everlasting life. But Eve decided they were smarter than God and talked Adam into eating from the tree of knowledge (sometimes called the tree of good and evil). You assume he just put us here to suffer. He placed us in the Garden of Eden (Eutopia) but man messed up the contract with God. So we were cast out of Eden much like you would punish your child. Now I believe God is treating us like an adult child, if you have a child who lives on their own now can you protect them every day. Can you tell them how they should act what to do with their money and so on. God is allowing us to have free choice, we know the consequences of our actions. All of the suffering is caused by man's refusal to abide by God and his laws. It is not by God that we are in this cesspool but by our own actions.

 

Unfortunately, this fails at the first sentence. We can't have a personal relationship with God on Earth because he isn't here interacting with us. To have a personal relationship with God we need to go to Heaven, where there is no sin and hence, no separation from God, ever, for anyone. The very fact that we are here on Earth obviates God, who loves us unconditionally, yet places us on Earth, the only place where we can earn our way out of Heaven.

 

We are God's children, correct? Which of your children would you put in a cave, away from every material advantage you could possibly give them, and - more crucially - away from your presence?

 

 

I believe what johnnyrodgers20 is getting at, and I may be wrong so I'm not speaking for him, is that Earth was intended to be our place of dwelling with God, and that Adam and Eve, or the first humans, depending on how you view creation and etc., had intimacy with God and God was present on Earth (you know in Revelation how it talks about the new Earth and the millennial kingdom? Heaven isn't the last stop according to Scripture, Earth is, which leads me to believe Earth was meant to be the only stop originally), but that through the destruction and disease of sin, our physiological and spiritual nature became crippled, denying us the ability to directly and intimately have relationship and fellowship with our creator.

 

 

 

Note: This isn't my argument, although some elements of it I would be prone to using (a lot I'm on the fence with, because it's a good and tough question), I'm just projecting what I believe johnnyrodgers20 to have been getting at.

 

 

 

As far as other things said in this thread, I just have a few quick things.

 

1. The Universal Life Church is dreadful, sinful and heretical, and while it's a sad thing to see stuff like that exist, what's even more sad is that it's in response to the lack of Christ-like love displayed by His followers worldwide - myself included.

 

2. The Dude, I like your analogy, but it only works if there is not, in fact, evidence of God. I hope you can understand that there is no such thing as objective evidence, there is only perception of evidence, and you can almost always take one observation and have two different people draw two entirely different conclusions from the same observation. That being said, I have seen a very large and wide-ranging amount of evidence towards the God of the Bible, both internal and external, both natural and supernatural.

 

Romans 1:20-21 says "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." So, using your same argument, I could make the point that God is easily and obviously evidence by the world, and it was only by our jaded and selfish desires that we exchanged the truth of God for a lie, but it's okay because it doesn't affect anyone, right? But it does affect everyone; because of the lies of the world people don't know Jesus and haven't received the gift of salvation, and people that do are persecuted all over the world. Like you said, wouldn't it be irresponsible of me to let these lies that have eternal consequences be told and promoted, and go unchallenged? This isn't necessarily directed towards you, unless you fall into the category of people who criticize those of faith for being narrow-minded and intolerant - it's directed towards them.

 

 

 

3. Hammerhead, if you're asking that question with Christianity in mind, the entire point of what Jesus taught is that we aren't good at all. We are worthless, and are incapable of doing good, and we need the forgiveness and sacrifice of a savior. So the answer to your question is no, you are not a good person, no matter what.

[knapplc]

Who put the Tree in the Garden of Eden? Why even put it there?

 

 

You're changing the subject but I am not intelligent enough to tell you why an all knowing God would do that. That would be conjecture on my part. Only God knows and I think I will wait a little while until I ask him.

 

No, I'm showing you that the concept of a loving God is not possible in the context of the Bible. Simple, unavoidable facts based on Christian theology:

 

God is Omnipotent

God created heaven and earth

There is no sin in heaven

God placed man on earth, NOT heaven

When created, Man had no sin

God placed the Tree in the presence of man

Man then sinned

God said, "You are OUT!" and cast man from the Garden

 

This would be akin to placing an infant next to a fire and saying, don't touch! The infant can't not touch - it's in their nature. The infant can't grasp the danger, can't understand your warning. But you're a loving parent for putting your child next to a fire? No, you're a terrible parent. You'd be convicted in any court for doing this.

 

But it gets even better. Because what you're actually going to do is not simply allow that infant to be burned, you're also going to burn every child that descends from that infant, forever, simply because the first infant burned themselves. Out of the womb, into the fire. Does this sound like the behavior of a loving God? It doesn't to me.

 

If God truly loves each and every man, then why would he ever place man in this position, where we can't earn our way into Heaven, but we can VERY EASILY earn our way into Hell?

 

Would you treat your child like this?

[knapplc]

I believe what johnnyrodgers20 is getting at, and I may be wrong so I'm not speaking for him, is that Earth was intended to be our place of dwelling with God, and that Adam and Eve, or the first humans, depending on how you view creation and etc., had intimacy with God and God was present on Earth (you know in Revelation how it talks about the new Earth and the millennial kingdom? Heaven isn't the last stop according to Scripture, Earth is, which leads me to believe Earth was meant to be the only stop originally), but that through the destruction and disease of sin, our physiological and spiritual nature became crippled, denying us the ability to directly and intimately have relationship and fellowship with our creator.

 

Why would he need to create Earth? Heaven already existed, and we end up there anyway, right? What is the point of Earth, then?

[johnnyrodgers20]

Who put the Tree in the Garden of Eden? Why even put it there?

 

 

You're changing the subject but I am not intelligent enough to tell you why an all knowing God would do that. That would be conjecture on my part. Only God knows and I think I will wait a little while until I ask him.

 

No, I'm showing you that the concept of a loving God is not possible in the context of the Bible. Simple, unavoidable facts based on Christian theology:

 

God is Omnipotent

God created heaven and earth

There is no sin in heaven

God placed man on earth, NOT heaven

When created, Man had no sin

God placed the Tree in the presence of man

Man then sinned

God said, "You are OUT!" and cast man from the Garden

 

This would be akin to placing an infant next to a fire and saying, don't touch! The infant can't not touch - it's in their nature. The infant can't grasp the danger, can't understand your warning. But you're a loving parent for putting your child next to a fire? No, you're a terrible parent. You'd be convicted in any court for doing this.

 

But it gets even better. Because what you're actually going to do is not simply allow that infant to be burned, you're also going to burn every child that descends from that infant, forever, simply because the first infant burned themselves. Out of the womb, into the fire. Does this sound like the behavior of a loving God? It doesn't to me.

 

If God truly loves each and every man, then why would he ever place man in this position, where we can't earn our way into Heaven, but we can VERY EASILY earn our way into Hell?

 

Would you treat your child like this?

 

It is not like an infant Adam and Eve had rational thought and they were specifically told that you should not eat of this tree or you shall surely die. Now if I said that to you would you be able to understand that!!!! God gave them a choice to listen and trust him or to deviate from that and believe in themselves. They made the wrong choice. That is a big difference than your infant theory.

[knapplc]

It is not like an infant Adam and Eve had rational thought and they were specifically told that you should not eat of this tree or you shall surely die. Now if I said that to you would you be able to understand that!!!! God gave them a choice to listen and trust him or to deviate from that and believe in themselves. They made the wrong choice. That is a big difference than your infant theory.

 

You're ignoring the larger point, that there was NO REASON for that tree to ever be there. And even beyond that, there was no reason for them to ever be anywhere except in Heaven with God where God intends them to be anyway.

 

But your answer also doesn't explain why every subsequent person is branded a sinner from day one, the instant they leave the womb. Why convict them of Adam's sin? Again, not the act of a loving God.

[Husker_x]

Who put the Tree in the Garden of Eden? Why even put it there?

 

 

You're changing the subject but I am not intelligent enough to tell you why an all knowing God would do that. That would be conjecture on my part. Only God knows and I think I will wait a little while until I ask him.

 

No, I'm showing you that the concept of a loving God is not possible in the context of the Bible. Simple, unavoidable facts based on Christian theology:

 

God is Omnipotent

God created heaven and earth

There is no sin in heaven

God placed man on earth, NOT heaven

When created, Man had no sin

God placed the Tree in the presence of man

Man then sinned

God said, "You are OUT!" and cast man from the Garden

 

This would be akin to placing an infant next to a fire and saying, don't touch! The infant can't not touch - it's in their nature. The infant can't grasp the danger, can't understand your warning. But you're a loving parent for putting your child next to a fire? No, you're a terrible parent. You'd be convicted in any court for doing this.

 

But it gets even better. Because what you're actually going to do is not simply allow that infant to be burned, you're also going to burn every child that descends from that infant, forever, simply because the first infant burned themselves. Out of the womb, into the fire. Does this sound like the behavior of a loving God? It doesn't to me.

 

If God truly loves each and every man, then why would he ever place man in this position, where we can't earn our way into Heaven, but we can VERY EASILY earn our way into Hell?

 

Would you treat your child like this?

 

It is not like an infant Adam and Eve had rational thought and they were specifically told that you should not eat of this tree or you shall surely die. Now if I said that to you would you be able to understand that!!!! God gave them a choice to listen and trust him or to deviate from that and believe in themselves. They made the wrong choice. That is a big difference than your infant theory.

 

Actually the ultimate irony here is that only AFTER eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would Adam and Even have had a concept of good and evil. The myth is absurd on every point to begin with, but this absurdity out of all of them and the ridiculous nonsense that dribbles down from it (original sin, Hell, etc.) really takes the cake. Only after committing a sin would Adam and Eve be granted an understanding of what they'd done. What a terrible system.

[epocSoN]

A question I always love to get into is about what happens to members of other faiths when they die.

 

Many Christians will tell you that say, a Buddhist who lived a perfectly moral life will go to hell after they die. I always find this perplexing.

 

There are still tribes in Africa that have no knowledge of how the outside world functions. How would a person born into that society learn of Christianity? Are they doomed to go to hell?