Sub-Husker Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I'm not sure about that, because I know PS3's and XBox's have to be made without lead soldering (which shortens their life span and is a whole other issue) because they are classified as "toys". Maybe it's just different for the toy market, or maybe they do make them here. But my uneducated self doubts that. What idiot decided to make an electronic assembly without eutectic solder? Link to comment
knapplc Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 The cost of employer health care adds about $5 to $7 to the loaded cost of American labor. We are the only nation that saddles our domestic companies with that burden. Funny you mention that, when every other First-World nation provides socialized health care to their citizens. Link to comment
krill Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I'm not sure about that, because I know PS3's and XBox's have to be made without lead soldering (which shortens their life span and is a whole other issue) because they are classified as "toys". Maybe it's just different for the toy market, or maybe they do make them here. But my uneducated self doubts that. RoHS compliance with low and no lead solder was tricky at first, but part of the problem was also due to Taiwanese companies circa 05-07' building new, larger factories in China that had quality control issues to begin with. In consideration of the exponential growth of electronic waste it was essential to move to stricter standards with hazardous materials to create a recycling model that is remotely sustainable. It doesn't matter if it was manufactured in China, Taiwan, Japan, the US, or Germany...everyone complies with the same standards. Below is an interesting read on rising wages in China and the boomerang effect of comparative advantages: http://www.economist.com/node/21552898 The anecdotes from BigRedBuster are interesting, but in the big picture it doesn't reflect reality. Foreign companies like BMW, Michelin, IKEA, etc. are still opening transplant factories in America to sell goods to Americans and sometimes to export. Intel and Global Foundaries have both constructed huge new silicon fabs in America because of favorable public/private partnerships. Anyway, I'm just not seeing the "sky is falling" thing because of wages or regulations, particularly in light of high wage growth and increased environmental regulation in China after they turned entire swaths of the country into toxic wastelands that will now huge sums of money to rehabilitate. Link to comment
Sub-Husker Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 RoHS compliance with low and no lead solder was tricky at first, but part of the problem was also due to Taiwanese companies circa 05-07' building new, larger factories in China that had quality control issues to begin with. In consideration of the exponential growth of electronic waste it was essential to move to stricter standards with hazardous materials to create a recycling model that is remotely sustainable. It doesn't matter if it was manufactured in China, Taiwan, Japan, the US, or Germany...everyone complies with the same standards. Stoopid Europeans... lets add cost while reducing quality and reliability. Fortunately we still solder with good ole 63/37. Link to comment
ZRod Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 The cost of employer health care adds about $5 to $7 to the loaded cost of American labor. We are the only nation that saddles our domestic companies with that burden. Isn't that why there is a tax credit to give incentive for companies to provide health insurance and lower the burden on them? Link to comment
ZRod Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 RoHS compliance with low and no lead solder was tricky at first, but part of the problem was also due to Taiwanese companies circa 05-07' building new, larger factories in China that had quality control issues to begin with. In consideration of the exponential growth of electronic waste it was essential to move to stricter standards with hazardous materials to create a recycling model that is remotely sustainable. It doesn't matter if it was manufactured in China, Taiwan, Japan, the US, or Germany...everyone complies with the same standards. Thanks for the info Krill, consider me now more educated on the issue. Didn't think about the waste and recycling side of things. Link to comment
krill Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Fortunately we still solder with good ole 63/37. I think you're smart enough to know the difference between hand soldering and billions of mass produced PCBs that go into landfills. Link to comment
Sub-Husker Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Fortunately we still solder with good ole 63/37. I think you're smart enough to know the difference between hand soldering and billions of mass produced PCBs that go into landfills. I had managed quality for SCI (now Sanmina), who had more SMT lines than any other company in the world at the time. Yes we are hand soldering now, and still use the good stuff. There are other things we could do that would make much more of a positive impact than banning lead in solder. I don't trust the Chinese to comply with bans that other nations choose to comply with. Link to comment
Sub-Husker Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The cost of employer health care adds about $5 to $7 to the loaded cost of American labor. We are the only nation that saddles our domestic companies with that burden. Isn't that why there is a tax credit to give incentive for companies to provide health insurance and lower the burden on them? Maybe for some small businesses, but that is only a miniscule drop in the bucket. Link to comment
knapplc Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 You kids take your soldering talk elsewhere! Harrumph! Link to comment
krill Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 There are other things we could do that would make much more of a positive impact than banning lead in solder. I don't trust the Chinese to comply with bans that other nations choose to comply with. Changes like what? 30 years ago few people had a PC, 20 years ago they were more than a novelty, 10 years ago most households had a desktop, and now there's people like me who have a desktop, laptop, tablet and smart phone...and we are swapping devices (aside from desktops) quite frequently. Of course mission critical components will continue to use leaded solder, but an iphone that will be in a landfill in two years is not mission critical. That was the point of moving to lead free solder, so devices could be recycled more easily and without killing the people who recycle them. If the component is RoHS compliment it doesn't matter where it was manufactured. The huge Taiwanese and Chinese companies that manufacture virtually all consumer electronics are not going to try to sneak one by and risk a sales ban. I'm pretty sure SCI has manufacturing in China too. I think this is on topic knapplc; it is a perfect illustration of different attitudes. One attitude is acknowledging the existence of a problem and rectifying it, the other is screw it if it doesn't affect me and obfuscate with "no no no it can't be done!" arguments. Unfortunately the latter attitude is far too prevalent. 1 Link to comment
Comish Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Back to OP topic.................hmmm? http://www.examiner....st-cnn-orc-poll Link to comment
knapplc Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Back to OP topic.................hmmm? http://www.examiner....st-cnn-orc-poll So... you found a republican-leaning website that claims the latest polls are skewed (and doubly skewed!) but they offer no numerical analysis of this skewing? Where are the numbers? I looked through the PDF of the CNN poll they say is skewed. Where are the numbers they're talking about? Link to comment
Blackshirts007 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I don't even want to vote. Link to comment
Comish Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Back to OP topic.................hmmm? http://www.examiner....st-cnn-orc-poll So... you found a republican-leaning website that claims the latest polls are skewed (and doubly skewed!) but they offer no numerical analysis of this skewing? Where are the numbers? I looked through the PDF of the CNN poll they say is skewed. Where are the numbers they're talking about? Did the site not explain that Dems are over-sampled and independents under-sampled? And if so, then based on proportional breakdowns of the country's demographics, that would skew the numbers. The point is simply that the polls are not all in agreement and anybody who believes they accurately represent exactly what is going on is probably going to be disappointed. Recall that according to polls, Carter over Reagan was a "sure thing" right up until the last few weeks. All of us are guilty of using polls to justify our leanings, but the differing methodologies and samplings do create a mess that is hard for the average voter to penetrate. Link to comment
Recommended Posts