Christian Topics

[NUance]

My church experiences have been fairly rigid but I have ventured a few services of the type that really explore summoning the HS and have seen and felt things that are not easily explainable with science or psychology.

A lot of people don't do this--venture to other services--but I think it''s a great idea. I mean, it seems like most people belong to a particular denomination because: A) their parents belonged; or B) they married into it. Instead of that, why not go to different services/different denominations until you find one that fits your philosophy? I've done a bit of this. I moved to a new town two a few years back, and have been to ten or so different churches in this town. I mostly go to one church, but am still not a member of it. I'll probably continue to seek out more, and try to learn more about each.

 

 

One thing a pastor told me years ago leads my thinking on many things like this. He said "Don't you think that God in his infinite wisdom will do the right thing?"

I take solace in a similar thought. When I was a kid I used to wonder about odd situations--things like what happened to the souls of babies who died? Or what happens to aborigines from remote Australia who had never even heard of God or Jesus? Later I reasoned, if God is omniscient and knows all from A to Z, then who better to make judgement calls like these? I think God is more likely to make the right call (100% likely) than, say, a B1G Ten officiating crew looking at replay tape. lol Further than that, since God made these people in the first place (babies, aborigines) then it's not my place or anyone else's place to second guess what He has in store for them.

[zoogs]

Elohim is the plural form of El. With regards to the argument that the old testament doesn't speak overtly of the trinity, the plural form is used 2607 of the 2845 times the word "God" is used in the Old Testament. Not only is the word for God usually used in the plural form, but several verses refer to God as "Us." such as:

 

"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..."

 

So this is a concept found throughout the entire Bible. Since us Christians trust in the eternality of God, the Holy Spirit can't not exist today.

 

Side question, but might that not simply be the majestic plural / royal 'we' ?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_plural

 

Jewish scholars point to the majestic plural or the royal we in many verses of the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh. "Obviously, the plural form is used in the same way as in the divine appellation 'Elohim', to indicate the all-inclusiveness of God's attributes of authority and power, the plurality of majesty. It is customary for authority figures to speak of themselves as if they were a plurality. Hence, Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give your counsel what we shall do" (2 Samuel 16:20). The context shows that he was seeking advice for himself yet he refers to himself as 'we' (see also Ezra 4:16-19).^[5]

The tradition of the royal we may also be traced to the Mughals of India and Sultans of Banu Abbas and Banu Umayyah. The royal we is used to express the dignity or highest position either understood as strictly hierarchical or as referential to an alternate "higher" than ego identity.

There are many verses in the Qur'an where Allah speaks using the Arabic pronoun nahnu (meaning "we") or its associated suffix. "We" created, "we" sent down, etc.^[6] It is also used in the second person in formal diplomatic language, associated with a style or honorific. For instance, the President of Egypt would be addressed as فخامتكم Fakhāmatakum, "Your (plural) Excellency" in formal diplomatic communications (e.g. diplomatic telegrams).

[Undone]

Hey Zoogs,

 

I agree that Unitarian and Jewish scholars point to the "royal we" in that context. I also concede that although I've studied Koine Greek, I've never studied ancient Hebrew.

 

Probably the more moderate position a Christian might take is to say that there can certainly be danger in drawing a pointed meaning from an excerpt of the text (i.e. cherry picking) when that meaning was not overtly stated in that very excerpt. So moderately speaking, it's fair to say that although a case can certainly be made for the "royal we," the text in Genesis does not contradict the idea of the trinity. For example, Colossians 1:16 (New Testament) reads: ‘For by Him [the Son of God (v. 15)] all things were created.’ A direct reference to the eternality (past and future) of the trinity.

 

My main point though - I have to be careful to not be a cherry picker myself.

 

Good post you made. And sorry NUance; this tangent was my fault.

[NUance]

Hey Zoogs,

 

I agree that Unitarian and Jewish scholars point to the "royal we" in that context. I also concede that although I've studied Koine Greek, I've never studied ancient Hebrew.

 

Probably the more moderate position a Christian might take is to say that there can certainly be danger in drawing a pointed meaning from an excerpt of the text (i.e. cherry picking) when that meaning was not overtly stated in that very excerpt. So moderately speaking, it's fair to say that although a case can certainly be made for the "royal we," the text in Genesis does not contradict the idea of the trinity. For example, Colossians 1:16 (New Testament) reads: ‘For by Him [the Son of God (v. 15)] all things were created.’ A direct reference to the eternality (past and future) of the trinity.

 

My main point though - I have to be careful to not be a cherry picker myself.

 

Good post you made. And sorry NUance; this tangent was my fault.

Not a tangent at all. I appreciate your insights. Really made me think. ( / Also, thanks to your post above I now know what The Dude meant by the "royal we" in The Big Lebowski. lol)

 

I didn't mean to dissuade anyone from making points or bringing up their own topics of interest. Well--except for debating the actual existence of God. We have a hundred threads that do that already.

[strigori]

The "We" may very well have meant We, as in plural. Christianity only has its name from the second half of the book remember. And prior to the advent of this religion, all other religions were polytheistic. And as much as some loathe to admit it, Christianity does have roots in previous polytheistic religions. And the 'trinity' is a means to make it less of a scary option to converting people of the time who were unwilling or unable to accept a single God in place of their pantheon.

[krc1995]

wow, this discussion went way over my head. Can someone in two sentences or less tell me how not to go to hell but still enjoy life?

[strigori]

wow, this discussion went way over my head. Can someone in two sentences or less tell me how not to go to hell but still enjoy life?

redefine what you call 'enjoyment'

[HuskerShark]

wow, this discussion went way over my head. Can someone in two sentences or less tell me how not to go to hell but still enjoy life?

 

The path to Heaven is not in the works. Meaning that we as Christians believe (because Jesus said so) that if we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and recognize that He died for our sins, we will be granted the gift of eternal life in Heaven.

 

Now here is where I disagree with a lot of my fellow Christians. Take for example a man who has accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior but rapes and murders people. Based on those beliefs alone, he should be granted with eternal life. But I have read in the Bible a couple passages (can't remember what or where) that talk about this very issue. We as people could make the case that if this man were committing these horrible acts against others, that he has not truly accepted Jesus. I feel that God most likely views this situation in the same light.

 

So on one side, the path to Heaven is not in the works, but on the other hand, it is a little bit. How you as an individual feel is the best way of going about your life while still accepting Jesus is essentially up to you, and there is not one concrete way of going about it. In many cases/situations, you kind of should ask yourself the old cliche, "What would Jesus do?" Yes, it's very cheesy, but the idea of a true Christian who has truly accepted Jesus as his/her Lord and Savior is to live his/her life as an example of God's word. In other words, love others more than you love yourself and "doing the right thing."

 

That is the path to Heaven according to the Bible.

[strigori]

Please. If living by 'What would Jesus do?" was held to most 'Christians', they would have to be excommunicated.

[NUance]

Please. If living by 'What would Jesus do?" was held to most 'Christians', they would have to be excommunicated.

Ha ha! Yeah, that's a great standard to aspire to. But hard (impossible?) to do. Even for a day. I probably do stuff every day that I wouldn't do if Jesus was standing by my side. Heck, I probably type stuff on this message board every day--crackin jokes end sech--that I wouldn't do.

[Landlord]

wow, this discussion went way over my head. Can someone in two sentences or less tell me how not to go to hell but still enjoy life?

 

 

krc, this is one of the hardest questions imaginable for me to try and answer. Not because the answer is itself difficult, but because human nature wants to twist it into something it's not. This video might help...

 

 

 

Besides that, there's just a few things I'll say. Scripture makes it clear that we are saved by grace (God's unmerited and undeserved gift of forgiveness by sending Jesus to die in our place) and through faith (believing Jesus is who He says He is and did what He promised to do). Now, that sounds extremely simple, and in some ways it is, but as was mentioned before, there are so many people in this world and especially in America that claim faith in Jesus and live their lives exactly as they always have. This is not saving faith. The reason I say so is because Scripture gives us more to go with. Jesus tells us that we will be known by our fruit (our deeds), James tells us that faith without deeds is dead faith, and Jesus also says that those who love Him will follow His commands.

 

Now, is this to say that we are saved by what we do? Absolutely not, no way. Think of it this way. Doing good deeds is not a requirement for salvation, but it is a response to it. When Jesus saves you, He sends the Spirit to renew you into a new creation, free of sin, with the desire to serve Him and be obedient. The way you word your question has me concerned, because Jesus is not a "get out of hell free" card or spiritual train ticket; Jesus is the destination. Usually we come to know Him out of selfishness, wanting to save ourselves, but He loves us enough to change our hearts to care more about worshiping Him because He's the Creator of the universe and of you and I and He is worthy of glory and praise, not because we want assurance that our lives are going to be really good.

 

Sorry that's more than a few sentences. If you're still interested further, I know a lot of other videos and really helpful resources that can lay out the truth of the gospel way better than I can. I've got you in my prayers as you're going through this journey.

[NUance]

wow, this discussion went way over my head. Can someone in two sentences or less tell me how not to go to hell but still enjoy life?

krc, this is one of the hardest questions imaginable for me to try and answer. Not because the answer is itself difficult, but because human nature wants to twist it into something it's not. This video might help...

 

 

Besides that, there's just a few things I'll say. Scripture makes it clear that we are saved by grace (God's unmerited and undeserved gift of forgiveness by sending Jesus to die in our place) and through faith (believing Jesus is who He says He is and did what He promised to do). Now, that sounds extremely simple, and in some ways it is, but as was mentioned before, there are so many people in this world and especially in America that claim faith in Jesus and live their lives exactly as they always have. This is not saving faith. The reason I say so is because Scripture gives us more to go with. Jesus tells us that we will be known by our fruit (our deeds), James tells us that faith without deeds is dead faith, and Jesus also says that those who love Him will follow His commands.

 

Now, is this to say that we are saved by what we do? Absolutely not, no way. Think of it this way. Doing good deeds is not a requirement for salvation, but it is a response to it. When Jesus saves you, He sends the Spirit to renew you into a new creation, free of sin, with the desire to serve Him and be obedient. The way you word your question has me concerned, because Jesus is not a "get out of hell free" card or spiritual train ticket; Jesus is the destination. Usually we come to know Him out of selfishness, wanting to save ourselves, but He loves us enough to change our hearts to care more about worshiping Him because He's the Creator of the universe and of you and I and He is worthy of glory and praise, not because we want assurance that our lives are going to be really good.

 

Sorry that's more than a few sentences. If you're still interested further, I know a lot of other videos and really helpful resources that can lay out the truth of the gospel way better than I can. I've got you in my prayers as you're going through this journey.

That's a GREAT explanation, Landlord. It distills grace and works down to an understandable nutshell. :

[TGHusker]

Landlord, you are spot on. I wanted to add a few thoughts.

The very 1st question we have to ask & answer is this:

1. Who is Jesus Christ? Every other question and answer is mute until we personally answer this. Jesus, himself, ask this disciples in Matthew 16 this very question: "Who do men say that I am?". Of course they hed hawed around wt saying that some say he was Elijah, a prophet, teacher, etc. Note it is easy to discuss religion/faith from the impersonal mode - 3rd person.. Then Jesus puts a trist on the question and asks "Who do YOU say that I am?" Here he is challenging us directly about our own personal faith. It is easy to skip over commitment when we talk about the 'other guys' not so easy when we are asked directly. Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirity, said "You are the Christ". Religion turned into faith at that moment. So, we have to ask in the same way CS Lewis did: Is Jesus a 1. Liar, 2. Lunitic or 3. Lord. He can't be a great teacher as most of the world's population and history agree that he is yet 'lie' about his role in man's salvation - that he is the only Way, Truth and Life and his relationship with God - He and the Father are one (thus He is God). 2. One might think he is a lunitic for saying he was God in the Flesh - yet a lunitic can't teach like he teaches and bring healing (emotional, spiritual, physical) healing to the world like he has. 3. Last choice - Lord. He is who he says he is and his words (all of them) should be studied and obeyed and he is worthy of our faith. Faith is placed in him, but that faith only sees in part while we live on this earth. So, this is the central question we must individually answer. The other questions will be anwered as we grow in faith and some not until we see him in heaven. I may think my Calvinist views are spot on now, but I'm sure when I get to heaven I'll be corrected about a few things or maybe more than a few. Our doctrine, is a structure to help us express our faith in God - it is not faith (the saving kind) or a god in itself. I'm reminded of Job. He had questions too. He suffered and could not get any real answers as to the reason for his suffering. God never answers him directly but asks him a series of questions in Job 38 - one in particular hits me "Where you there when I (God) laid the foundation of earth?" Net result, was that in all of our pleading our case before God and our shaking our fists at him, in the end, we can't answer that question and we have to do as Job did - repent of our pride and arrogance and worship God in humility. The darkness that Job felt and all of us feel when we go through the Dark nights of the Soul are answered indirectly - 1. God gives us Himself Isaiah 9 says "those who walk in darkness shall see a great light". Jesus is the Light of the World 2. He gives us a mission: Isaiah 58 - Give yourself to the poor and the hungry - then your light will rise in the darkness and God will direct our path - guidance. Get eyes off of self and onto others. 3. he gives us an all emcompassing purpose Micah 6;8 He has told you oh man what is good and what does the Lord require of you but to 1 Do justice (act justily towards all men - treat them fairly) 2. love mercy (show mercy towards others for you have been given mercy) and to 3 walk humbly with your God - (getting light, getting purpose, getting answers to questions all begin wt humble submission to God).

2. The question at hand about the Holy Spirit. Again we go back to Christ's words - He said when He departs, he would send the HS to testify of him, to indwell us, and to lead us into truth and enable us to represent him on earth. I think part of the confusion on the HS goes back to a discussion about the gifts of the spirit. Generally it is accepted that all believers receive the HS when they believe - saving faith. However, there are 2 main camps on what happens after one is saved: 1. There are some who believe that a fuller dispensation of the Spirit can be recieved later with spiritual gifts (speaking in tongues, prophecy and other sign gifts). In reaction to this, 2. there are those who say those gifts ceased after the 1st century when the New Testiment was written. The 1st group of pentecostals and many charismatics believe that there is a baptism in the spirit that goes beyond salvation and most of them believe that you most speak in tongues to demonstrate that you 'got it'. The 2nd group, more fundamental and often calvinistic disponsationists believe in a stopping point for those gifts. Personally, I would fall into the Wayne Grudum, John Piper, Sam Storms camp. Sam calls himself a Charismatic Calvinist. The Holy Spirit is given to us at the new birth, we can grow in our walk and having a sense of being empowered by the Spirit as we lay aside sin, etc thus we are filled more by the spirit - basically under the Spirit's control more. And yet, we believe that God is God and he distributes his gifts as the Spirit wills during all of the church age. I don't believe the gifts of the spirit are limited by time or history. However, I don't believe that there are catagories of Christians either as some pentecostals would have us to believe - The haves and the have nots - Those that have the spirit by new birth and those who have a great measure of the spirit because we have a certain spirit given gift. This glorifies man too much and not God. I think the true sign of 'being spirit filled and led' are the fruits of the spirit in Galatians 5 - love, joy, peace, kindness, meekness, patience, etc - if these control your life - then I'd say you are spirit filled and walking in a way that is pleasing. ICor 13, the love chapter tells us we can have the best of the spiritual gifts but if we don't have love - it means nothing.

So is there a Holy Spirit? - Yes He is a Person - a part of the trinity wt the Father and Son. Can we experience his infilling yes - through the new birth (believing and placing trust in Christ as saviour and Lord and turning from our sin), Can we grow in our experience with the Holy Spirit - yes - by continually allowing our lives to be conformed to Christ through application of God's word to our life in humble, loving obedience.

 

Sorry, I probably got way toooo loooooong. It is an important topic and I wanted to address it the best way I could wt the moments I had to do so.

Keep seeking and you shall find.

A fellow sojourner.

[krc1995]

thank you all for your indepth answers and insights. I guess I really can't but a definative timeline on this. I feel a sense of urgency because my son is 6 and I believe he should be raised with spirtuality, I just don't know what that means for me.

 

One more question, under any Christian religion, can the holy spirit be present in people that are not Christian? I like Landlord's part about good deeds being in response to receiving the holy spirit, but I still struggle with people whom have never been either exposured to religion or exposed to Christianity being unworthy of salvation.

[HuskerShark]

thank you all for your indepth answers and insights. I guess I really can't but a definative timeline on this. I feel a sense of urgency because my son is 6 and I believe he should be raised with spirtuality, I just don't know what that means for me.

 

One more question, under any Christian religion, can the holy spirit be present in people that are not Christian? I like Landlord's part about good deeds being in response to receiving the holy spirit, but I still struggle with people whom have never been either exposured to religion or exposed to Christianity being unworthy of salvation.

 

I get what you're saying, but none of us are "worthy" of salvation.