Christian Topics

[Undone]

Please. If living by 'What would Jesus do?" was held to most 'Christians', they would have to be excommunicated.

 

Which is exactly the point. Christ died to take the penalty of sin on himself. All sins paid in full. All of them.

 

Grace + works is still works. Grace covers all. This is the true message that Paul laboriously explains in the book of Romans. Faith in the finished work of Christ alone gives salvation.

 

I believe that people actually read posts that are short. So even at the risk of not going into enough detail, I'll respond briefly to Shark's post (while keeping in mind that I like to tread extremely lightly on disagreements over scriptual interpretation). You have to be very, very careful when you try to make a list of sins that invalidate salvation, or indicate that it means someone wasn't "saved." Otherwise, where does it stop? I stole a cookie out of the cookie jar, I've sinned! What will happen to my soul?!

 

I'm not making light of the argument...I'm trying to prove a point.

 

On a side note...the New Testament hardly ever refers to "salvation" in the past tense. That's really a man-made invention. Really makes you think.

[BigRedBuster]

My church experiences have been fairly rigid but I have ventured a few services of the type that really explore summoning the HS and have seen and felt things that are not easily explainable with science or psychology.

A lot of people don't do this--venture to other services--but I think it''s a great idea. I mean, it seems like most people belong to a particular denomination because: A) their parents belonged; or B) they married into it. Instead of that, why not go to different services/different denominations until you find one that fits your philosophy? I've done a bit of this. I moved to a new town two a few years back, and have been to ten or so different churches in this town. I mostly go to one church, but am still not a member of it. I'll probably continue to seek out more, and try to learn more about each.

 

I also believe this is good. I believe that people get mixed up "church" with "Christianity". Meaning, they believe that one church or one denomination is "right" and everyone else is wrong. I grew up in a nondenominational Christian church and then became Catholic after I was married. The Catholic traditions really make me feel closer to God. But, I understand that many of those traditions are man made traditions. Many of the traditions that were in the church that I grew up with were man made traditions. That doesn't mean they are wrong. That simply means that that group of people feel closer to God following those traditions.

 

The same can be said about many of the "rules" that various churches preach.

 

 

One thing a pastor told me years ago leads my thinking on many things like this. He said "Don't you think that God in his infinite wisdom will do the right thing?"

I take solace in a similar thought. When I was a kid I used to wonder about odd situations--things like what happened to the souls of babies who died? Or what happens to aborigines from remote Australia who had never even heard of God or Jesus? Later I reasoned, if God is omniscient and knows all from A to Z, then who better to make judgement calls like these? I think God is more likely to make the right call (100% likely) than, say, a B1G Ten officiating crew looking at replay tape. lol Further than that, since God made these people in the first place (babies, aborigines) then it's not my place or anyone else's place to second guess what He has in store for them.

 

This is something that I have always felt very strongly about. I take very seriously the passage that says we are not the judge of man...God is.

 

So often Christians or religious people get together in a group and they "judge" everyone else that isn't in that group. This can be individuals in a church or the church itself. I believe that goes right against everything Jesus taught us. Love the sinner...Hate the sin. I think many Christians will state that saying but their actions are not conducive to...Love the sinner.

 

 

I was very fortunate that I grew up in a church that taught us to never trust one man or one preacher or one church. Read the bible and decide for yourself what is right.

[NUance]

I’ll throw out another question for consideration: Why does God oftentimes let bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people? Two cases in point come to mind—both people that I know personally.

• An older guy that I met a couple years back—let’s call him Joe—was drafted into the Army as a teenager. He came back from Vietnam with both legs blown off well above the knees. Joe is sort of a loner. He never married, doesn't have any close relatives, or even many close friends. He was a soldier forty years ago. He’s a decent guy, but has led a pretty sad life.
  

• Another guy I know, Tim, is a total slime bag. He cheated his way through college at a prestigious southern school. About ten years ago he made several hundred thousand dollars in just a couple years' time trading stocks on insider information. (He split it with the guy who fed him the info.) His dad set him up in a sweet business where he makes about $400k per year. He’s married, has two kids in private school, and drives a Porsche to work. He’s one of the worst people I know. But he lives like a prince.
  

So riddle me this: Why does God let bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people? (I've pondered this for a long time and reached my own conclusion. I want to hear what others think.)

[krc1995]

I’ll throw out another question for consideration: Why does God oftentimes let bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people? Two cases in point come to mind—both people that I know personally.

• An older guy that I met a couple years back—let’s call him Joe—was drafted into the Army as a teenager. He came back from Vietnam with both legs blown off well above the knees. Joe is sort of a loner. He never married, doesn't have any close relatives, or even many close friends. He was a soldier forty years ago. He’s a decent guy, but has led a pretty sad life.
  

• Another guy I know, Tim, is a total slime bag. He cheated his way through college at a prestigious southern school. About ten years ago he made several hundred thousand dollars in just a couple years' time trading stocks on insider information. (He split it with the guy who fed him the info.) His dad set him up in a sweet business where he makes about $400k per year. He’s married, has two kids in private school, and drives a Porsche to work. He’s one of the worst people I know. But he lives like a prince.
  

So riddle me this: Why does God let bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people? (I've pondered this for a long time and reached my own conclusion. I want to hear what others think.)

 

I don't know all the scriptures, but isn't a christian's earthly life irrelevent? No man can ever be as pure as Jesus or perfect as God. Eternal salvation is not judged on what a man does here on earth, but if he accepts Christ as his savio he is granted life ever after. I guess I don't know where the self monitoring priciples play into christianity, but if the second dude were a Buddist he'd come back as an ant

[Landlord]

It's late, I'm exhausted from the Unashamed Tour in Omaha and about to pass out, but I'm excited to formulate some responses tomorrow.

In the meantime, NUance, I had a suggestion. Thought it might be worth considering changing the thread title to something a little more wide-ranging, so this can be a thread not just for questions and debates but also for prayer requests, sharing of what God's doing in our lives, links to Christian resources or whatever else.

That being said, did anyone else go to the Unashamed Tour? It's a rap group called the 116 Clique based on Romans 1:16 (look it up) and headed up by Lecrae. The show was pretty wild, and those guys are all amazingly gifted men. I'd check them out if you never have - Trip Lee, Tedashii, KB, Derek Minor (PRo), Andy Mineo and Lecrae.

[lo country]

 

 

It's late, I'm exhausted from the Unashamed Tour in Omaha and about to pass out, but I'm excited to formulate some responses tomorrow.

In the meantime, NUance, I had a suggestion. Thought it might be worth considering changing the thread title to something a little more wide-ranging, so this can be a thread not just for questions and debates but also for prayer requests, sharing of what God's doing in our lives, links to Christian resources or whatever else.

That being said, did anyone else go to the Unashamed Tour? It's a rap group called the 116 Clique based on Romans 1:16 (look it up) and headed up by Lecrae. The show was pretty wild, and those guys are all amazingly gifted men. I'd check them out if you never have - Trip Lee, Tedashii, KB, Derek Minor (PRo), Andy Mineo and Lecrae.

Have family members on the mission field in Africa. They got to meet and hang out with Lecrae. Nothing, but good things to say about him. His music, and that of 116 is really good.

I have been reading this thread and enjoy the comments.

[Undone]

I think most of us have experienced situations where trials make us stronger (and our faith, too). I know that doesn't exactly explain good things happening to "bad" people. I suppose we're all bad anyway. But I absolutely know what you mean.

 

My take - I'm not going to understand some of these things until I meet my Maker.

[TGHusker]

I’ll throw out another question for consideration: Why does God oftentimes let bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people? Two cases in point come to mind—both people that I know personally.

• An older guy that I met a couple years back—let’s call him Joe—was drafted into the Army as a teenager. He came back from Vietnam with both legs blown off well above the knees. Joe is sort of a loner. He never married, doesn't have any close relatives, or even many close friends. He was a soldier forty years ago. He’s a decent guy, but has led a pretty sad life.
  

• Another guy I know, Tim, is a total slime bag. He cheated his way through college at a prestigious southern school. About ten years ago he made several hundred thousand dollars in just a couple years' time trading stocks on insider information. (He split it with the guy who fed him the info.) His dad set him up in a sweet business where he makes about $400k per year. He’s married, has two kids in private school, and drives a Porsche to work. He’s one of the worst people I know. But he lives like a prince.
  

So riddle me this: Why does God let bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people? (I've pondered this for a long time and reached my own conclusion. I want to hear what others think.)

 

 

 

A GREAT BOOK on this topic is: 'IF GOD IS GOOD' by Randy Alcorn. Excellent read and covers so much of this topic - why is there evil., why do people suffer, where is God in the midst of suffering, etc I highly recomend the book. He does a very good job of laying out the chapters in a easy to follow and logical format.

 

Some very quick thoughts on the subject that I have:

1. The Bible tells us that his common grace is given to all - "It rains on the just and the unjust" We all have the benefits of rain. We all have difficulty as well. The incidents you mention are just 'snap shots' in time. Those on the mountain top may have been in the valley 2 years ago and visa versa - Christian or non-Christian.

2. Jesus tell us in several cases that someone's difficulties aren't a result of some specific sin (John Chpt 8: Why was the blind man blind - his sin, or his parents?? Neither is the answer but Jesus would use it for God's glory. ) But also tells us that because of our sinful nature in general we are all deserving of hardship (Luke 13:4-5, "Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them--do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.")

3. While a non Christian may live on easy street now in this life, that is his only "reward". While as Christians, we know that "God works all thigs to the good for those who love him and are called according to his purposes" Rom 8:28. It goes on to say in the next few verses that our ultimate good - is being conformed into the image of Christ. Difficulty is a tool that is use to bring us into dependance on Christ and change to be more like him. The rest of the chapter tells us that he will never leave us in our difficulty and that difficulty cannot separate us from his love.

Rom 8:28-29 Vs 28 – One of most sweeping promises in the Bible – God causes ALL things to work together for good. - No qualifications, inclusive in every manner. Only a Sovereign God “who works all things after the counsel of His will” (Eph 1:11) could accomplish this Promise to those who Love God, To Those who are Called

 

Vs 29: He predestined & called us to the purpose of being Conformed to Christ

 

Rom 8:28 Is the life between being called and being glorified

 

Nothing is outside of God’s control - Our tests, trials, temptations, disappointments, evils, plus all good things- are all used to conform us to Christ

 

Nothing can ultimately work against us – overcoming evil - reducing evil’s affect

 

Work Together: Synergism - Table Salt is made of 2 poisons –Sodium & Chlorine

 

God takes the Word & “life” & ‘synergizes’ them together for our good

 

No one can bring a charge against God’s elect - be confident wt this knowledge

 

Nothing can separate us from His love. We have been & are in God’s will

 

This isn’t a promise of suburban bliss, but of being an overwhelmingly conquer of surviving every type of trial and persecution even to the point of death

 

These great promises should make us fearless in completing our mission and running into the kingdom battle. To step out in faith to serve the needy, to evangelize, give our life to the work of the kingdom - to live our mission/dreams

 

Life is like a stain glass window: we can’t see the beautiful design until we step back and see God’s big picture. God does all things well

 

Rom 8:28 shows the greatness of a faithful God who takes us through the hardships of life for the purpose of conforming us to Christ’s image – our ultimate good & joy

[TGHusker]

I’ll throw out another question for consideration: Why does God oftentimes let bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people? Two cases in point come to mind—both people that I know personally.

• An older guy that I met a couple years back—let’s call him Joe—was drafted into the Army as a teenager. He came back from Vietnam with both legs blown off well above the knees. Joe is sort of a loner. He never married, doesn't have any close relatives, or even many close friends. He was a soldier forty years ago. He’s a decent guy, but has led a pretty sad life.
  

• Another guy I know, Tim, is a total slime bag. He cheated his way through college at a prestigious southern school. About ten years ago he made several hundred thousand dollars in just a couple years' time trading stocks on insider information. (He split it with the guy who fed him the info.) His dad set him up in a sweet business where he makes about $400k per year. He’s married, has two kids in private school, and drives a Porsche to work. He’s one of the worst people I know. But he lives like a prince.
  

So riddle me this: Why does God let bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people? (I've pondered this for a long time and reached my own conclusion. I want to hear what others think.)

 

 

 

 

Looking at Jeremiah 29 - we see the famous promise in vs 11 "For I know the plans I have for you, plans for welfare and not calamity, to give you a future and hope" Some people like to take this out of content and think life should be all bliss. But this was directed to people in captiviity. Let's look at the full story:

Avoid “Plaquism” (counting out a verse and making a plaque out of it)– 1. Look at the context 2. Look beyond the promise to see what the promise is saying about the God of the promise – leads to worship, surrender

 

 

 

Jer 29: 4-13 Jeremiah warned the Exiles not to listen to prophets who spoke just about the good (you’ll be delivered from Exile soon)

 

 

 

Jeremiah’s message: Build houses, Marry, Have children & give them in marriage (not a short stay in exile), plant gardens, and PRAY for Babylon - in its welfare you will find your welfare. - Jeremiah’s “Make lemonade out of lemons - bloom where you are planted statement”

 

 

 

God is inviting us to be involved in what he is doing. Look beyond self. Walk through the difficulty with Him. 1Cor 10:13 - God gives us everything to go through

 

 

 

For I know the plans I have for you - Exile. But also fulfilled by Nehemiah - the resources from those in exile would rebuild

Jerusalem 70 years later Ezra 2:68-69 - our trials are often for the benefit of others arranged by God’s sovereign plan - Trust

 

 

 

Our deepest ministry & growth comes out of our deepest trials. Head knowledge becomes ‘heart’ knowledge

 

 

 

What resources is God giving you in the trial? What blessing can you be to others?

 

 

 

The result: Vs 13 “You will seek Me and Find Me” God’s people found God anew in Exile. The banished would return to God’s love

 

 

 

Contrast: Exodus - Delivered from Captivity to find God anew in the wilderness. Exile - Delivered from complacency and into Captivity to find God anew

 

 

 

Unlike modern pop theology, God is more interested in our sanctification then our success. A Narcissistic church has little impact on the society - the society ends up impacting the church.

 

 

 

In living a surrendered life we find our life and with it our greatest joy

 

Final Word on this:

 

“The sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared wt the glory that is to be revealed to us” Rom 8:18

We must view our circumstances in light of God’s character instead of God’s character in light of our circumstances. Doing so allows us to see:

God uses suffering for our good that we will be more fully united to Christ (Hebrews 12:10-11, 1Pet 4:12-17;

God comforts us in our afflictions (2Corinthians 1:3-5)

God reminds us that they will not endure forever (2 Cor 4:16-18)

[JJ Husker]

To answer Nuances question, I'm not sure it will ever make sense, at least not while we are of this earth. I think part of purpose of bad things happening to good people and vice versa is to bring about this very question. I would think that question doesn't manifest itself in a "bad" person. And of course the whole issue of free will plays into this. If God controlled all things for good outcomes, it would be impossible to freely choose to love and follow him. There are good and evil forces in this world and all of us are free to choose our own path. But, that also makes us responsible for our choices and vulnerable to the choices of others. I believe our limited earthly life is little more than a dress rehearsal for eternity. It may be hard for us to understand or accept the injustices we witness while we are here but, I seriously doubt those things will be a concern at all once we are beyond this life. Chalk up to one of those issues that exceeds human understanding. I'm not good at quoting scripture but there is one about the poor becoming rich and the rich have already received their reward. Also, something about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. I would not interpret "rich" as strictly material wealth but also considering all of our earthly experiences.

[Landlord]

Happy Thanksgiving guys.

I'm really thankful for the discussions I've been able to have on this board - whether in the public realm, or other brothers sending me gracious personal messages (here's to you, NUance).

krc, I'm thankful for your questions and seeking and I've been praying for you friend.

TGHusker, I'm thankful that you just came out of the woodwork and your love for Jesus is readily apparent.

The rest of you, I'm walking out the door so I can't make this super long, but I've got a parting gift - if you have a bit of time today, set it aside to watch this and let the Spirit do what He does best. Gets me every time:

God bless guys.

[Landlord]

What a great young man.

 

Edit: Is there a way to embed vimeo videos here?

 

 

[Landlord]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/10/louie-giglio-anti-gay-obama-inauguration_n_2448796.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

 

 

The Rev. Louie Giglio, the Atlanta pastor scheduled to deliver the benediction at President Barack Obama's second-term inauguration, said Thursday he is withdrawing from the ceremony amid questions about an anti-gay sermon he gave in the mid-1990s.

The sermon, in which he spoke against the "aggressive agenda" of the gay rights movement, would make his inaugural prayer "dwarfed by those seeking to make their agenda the focal point of the inauguration," Giglio said in a statement. "Neither I, nor our team, feel it best serves the core message and goals we are seeking to accomplish to be in a fight on an issue not of our choosing."

[NUance]

Are there prophets today? If a prophet currently existed, how would we recognize him (or her)? I mean, even back in the Old Testament (and New Testament) times, prophets were often not recognized as such by those who knew them, or by the official church until years after their death. Mark 6:4 comes to mind. What is the difference between a prophet and someone who is simply imbued with the Holy Spirit? In fact, I'm not even sure I know what a prophet is. Is a prophet someone who predicts the future or delivers God's word? Or could a prophet be someone who interprets current events or bible passages?

[strigori]

Are there prophets today? If a prophet currently existed, how would we recognize him (or her)? I mean, even back in the Old Testament (and New Testament) times, prophets were often not recognized as such by those who knew them, or by the official church until years after their death. Mark 6:4 comes to mind. What is the difference between a prophet and someone who is simply imbued with the Holy Spirit? In fact, I'm not even sure I know what a prophet is. Is a prophet someone who predicts the future or delivers God's word? Or could a prophet be someone who interprets current events or bible passages?

Were there ever prophets? Or all just created for the purposes of telling a story?