So why is it so hard to believe God is.....

[walksalone]

What people rely on to make themselves feel better? Walks, you’re assuming that because you’ve not experienced God that nobody else has either. In fact, when Jesus departed he sent back the Holy Spirit. You could read about it in the New Testament, if you were so inclined. But more importantly, it’s something that people can actually experience for themselves. Oddly though, not everyone can experience it. I’m not sure why that is. The role of the Holy Spirit is quite controversial within the various flavors of Christiandom. Many church-going folks who consider themselves Christians go their whole lives without ever having the joy of being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit. Anyway, the point I’m making is that if you had ever experienced the Holy Spirit, you’d do a 180 and be a believer. The mere fact that you haven’t—and probably won’t—does not mean that others haven’t.

 

I believe in spirituality, I believe in myself, and I have a moral compass, but I don't need some dude who got nailed to a cross to save me, I can do that myself, just fine..

 

But organized religion, and christianity is one of the most destructive organizations on the planet. For a group that bases itself on "love", its sure easy to kill some body or belittle them if they don't agree with you. Christianity forces itself upon those who do not share the same belief structures or simply do not care.

[NUance]

What people rely on to make themselves feel better? Walks, you’re assuming that because you’ve not experienced God that nobody else has either. In fact, when Jesus departed he sent back the Holy Spirit. You could read about it in the New Testament, if you were so inclined. But more importantly, it’s something that people can actually experience for themselves. Oddly though, not everyone can experience it. I’m not sure why that is. The role of the Holy Spirit is quite controversial within the various flavors of Christiandom. Many church-going folks who consider themselves Christians go their whole lives without ever having the joy of being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit. Anyway, the point I’m making is that if you had ever experienced the Holy Spirit, you’d do a 180 and be a believer. The mere fact that you haven’t—and probably won’t—does not mean that others haven’t.

 

I believe in spirituality, I believe in myself, and I have a moral compass, but I don't need some dude who got nailed to a cross to save me, I can do that myself, just fine..

 

But organized religion, and christianity is one of the most destructive organizations on the planet. For a group that bases itself on "love", its sure easy to kill some body or belittle them if they don't agree with you. Christianity forces itself upon those who do not share the same belief structures or simply do not care.

Yeah, sadly I agree with much of what you've said. (Probably not the part about being one of the most destructive organizations on the planet. LOL) In my post above I was just trying to mention what some people have the great good fortune to experience. If you can believe that--that some Christians experience the Holy Spirit--it might help explain why some Christians are so vehement in their convictions. It might also might help explain why Christianity hasn't died out over the past two thousand years.

[walksalone]

Yeah, sadly I agree with much of what you've said. (Probably not the part about being one of the most destructive organizations on the planet. LOL) In my post above I was just trying to mention what some people have the great good fortune to experience. If you can believe that--that some Christians experience the Holy Spirit--it might help explain why some Christians are so vehement in their convictions. It might also might help explain why Christianity hasn't died out over the past two thousand years.

 

See, I've always thought, if it helps you get through the day, then good for you. I'm looking at it from what has been told to me by my Grandfather (who was beaten by priests for speaking Lakota) and my Dad (who was beaten by nuns for reading a book), I do not have a favorable view of organized religion or christianity...

[HuskerShark]

What people rely on to make themselves feel better? Walks, you’re assuming that because you’ve not experienced God that nobody else has either. In fact, when Jesus departed he sent back the Holy Spirit. You could read about it in the New Testament, if you were so inclined. But more importantly, it’s something that people can actually experience for themselves. Oddly though, not everyone can experience it. I’m not sure why that is. The role of the Holy Spirit is quite controversial within the various flavors of Christiandom. Many church-going folks who consider themselves Christians go their whole lives without ever having the joy of being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit. Anyway, the point I’m making is that if you had ever experienced the Holy Spirit, you’d do a 180 and be a believer. The mere fact that you haven’t—and probably won’t—does not mean that others haven’t.

 

I believe in spirituality, I believe in myself, and I have a moral compass, but I don't need some dude who got nailed to a cross to save me, I can do that myself, just fine..

 

Actually... No..... No you can't.

[strigori]

What people rely on to make themselves feel better? Walks, you’re assuming that because you’ve not experienced God that nobody else has either. In fact, when Jesus departed he sent back the Holy Spirit. You could read about it in the New Testament, if you were so inclined. But more importantly, it’s something that people can actually experience for themselves. Oddly though, not everyone can experience it. I’m not sure why that is. The role of the Holy Spirit is quite controversial within the various flavors of Christiandom. Many church-going folks who consider themselves Christians go their whole lives without ever having the joy of being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit. Anyway, the point I’m making is that if you had ever experienced the Holy Spirit, you’d do a 180 and be a believer. The mere fact that you haven’t—and probably won’t—does not mean that others haven’t.

 

I believe in spirituality, I believe in myself, and I have a moral compass, but I don't need some dude who got nailed to a cross to save me, I can do that myself, just fine..

 

But organized religion, and christianity is one of the most destructive organizations on the planet. For a group that bases itself on "love", its sure easy to kill some body or belittle them if they don't agree with you. Christianity forces itself upon those who do not share the same belief structures or simply do not care.

Yeah, sadly I agree with much of what you've said. (Probably not the part about being one of the most destructive organizations on the planet. LOL) In my post above I was just trying to mention what some people have the great good fortune to experience. If you can believe that--that some Christians experience the Holy Spirit--it might help explain why some Christians are so vehement in their convictions. It might also might help explain why Christianity hasn't died out over the past two thousand years.

And some people are completely convinced they have been abducted by aliens, and are just as strong in their convictions as the guy who claims to be 'filled with the holy spirit' which is not even something supported by some of the denominations.

[strigori]

What people rely on to make themselves feel better? Walks, you’re assuming that because you’ve not experienced God that nobody else has either. In fact, when Jesus departed he sent back the Holy Spirit. You could read about it in the New Testament, if you were so inclined. But more importantly, it’s something that people can actually experience for themselves. Oddly though, not everyone can experience it. I’m not sure why that is. The role of the Holy Spirit is quite controversial within the various flavors of Christiandom. Many church-going folks who consider themselves Christians go their whole lives without ever having the joy of being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit. Anyway, the point I’m making is that if you had ever experienced the Holy Spirit, you’d do a 180 and be a believer. The mere fact that you haven’t—and probably won’t—does not mean that others haven’t.

 

I believe in spirituality, I believe in myself, and I have a moral compass, but I don't need some dude who got nailed to a cross to save me, I can do that myself, just fine..

 

Actually... No..... No you can't.

And everyone born before 33AD was F'ed. And everyone not born in a small section of the middle east was F'ed. The Asians were F'ed for centuries later. The Native Americans were F'ed til 1492. Its BS.

[HuskerShark]

What people rely on to make themselves feel better? Walks, you’re assuming that because you’ve not experienced God that nobody else has either. In fact, when Jesus departed he sent back the Holy Spirit. You could read about it in the New Testament, if you were so inclined. But more importantly, it’s something that people can actually experience for themselves. Oddly though, not everyone can experience it. I’m not sure why that is. The role of the Holy Spirit is quite controversial within the various flavors of Christiandom. Many church-going folks who consider themselves Christians go their whole lives without ever having the joy of being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit. Anyway, the point I’m making is that if you had ever experienced the Holy Spirit, you’d do a 180 and be a believer. The mere fact that you haven’t—and probably won’t—does not mean that others haven’t.

 

I believe in spirituality, I believe in myself, and I have a moral compass, but I don't need some dude who got nailed to a cross to save me, I can do that myself, just fine..

 

Actually... No..... No you can't.

And everyone born before 33AD was F'ed. And everyone not born in a small section of the middle east was F'ed. The Asians were F'ed for centuries later. The Native Americans were F'ed til 1492.

 

Maybe, maybe not.

[walksalone]

I believe in spirituality, I believe in myself, and I have a moral compass, but I don't need some dude who got nailed to a cross to save me, I can do that myself, just fine..

 

Actually... No..... No you can't.

 

Why not?

[strigori]

What people rely on to make themselves feel better? Walks, you’re assuming that because you’ve not experienced God that nobody else has either. In fact, when Jesus departed he sent back the Holy Spirit. You could read about it in the New Testament, if you were so inclined. But more importantly, it’s something that people can actually experience for themselves. Oddly though, not everyone can experience it. I’m not sure why that is. The role of the Holy Spirit is quite controversial within the various flavors of Christiandom. Many church-going folks who consider themselves Christians go their whole lives without ever having the joy of being overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit. Anyway, the point I’m making is that if you had ever experienced the Holy Spirit, you’d do a 180 and be a believer. The mere fact that you haven’t—and probably won’t—does not mean that others haven’t.

 

I believe in spirituality, I believe in myself, and I have a moral compass, but I don't need some dude who got nailed to a cross to save me, I can do that myself, just fine..

 

Actually... No..... No you can't.

And everyone born before 33AD was F'ed. And everyone not born in a small section of the middle east was F'ed. The Asians were F'ed for centuries later. The Native Americans were F'ed til 1492.

 

Maybe, maybe not.

By your own doctrine, either its the one way, or you're F'ed. Can't have it both ways. Either the vast majority of all humans ever born on earth are F'ed, or its all a line of BS designed for power and obedience. Either the being you worship is a sadistic monster who has billions of souls being tortured for all of eternity, or its a crock of crap. I chose option two.

[NUance]

By your own doctrine, either its the one way, or you're F'ed. Can't have it both ways. Either the vast majority of all humans ever born on earth are F'ed, or its all a line of BS designed for power and obedience. Either the being you worship is a sadistic monster who has billions of souls being tortured for all of eternity, or its a crock of crap. I chose option two.

As mentioned above, the mere fact that you haven’t—and probably won’t—does not mean that others haven’t.

 

 

As for what you're calling doctrine, I don't think anyone walking the face of the earth can fully know God's mind. Especially those who think it's all a crock of crap.

[JJ Husker]

Does anyone stop to think that the fact that there is a 'new' and 'old' covenant disproves 'God'? It implies that the infallible being that created all, changed his mind, meaning he realized he was wrong..... And the infallible being wrong is kinda like dividing by 0.

 

Did you stop to think before you posted this? You're hinging your point, the infallible being changing his mind, on an example that never happened. Explain how he was wrong and changed his mind but please don't gloss over the parts where old testament prophets foretold the events and it was always intended to happen. Also, how would switching course or changing your mind make you wrong?

[HuskerShark]

Either the being you worship is a sadistic monster who has billions of souls being tortured for all of eternity, or its a crock of crap. I chose option two.

 

I highly doubt those are the only two options, and I think it's a little funny how people call Christians "closed-minded" like you have numerous times and then come back with a closed-minded response such as the one you just posted.

[knapplc]

The premise of the OP is weird. It's explained in this post, but it doesn't make any sense:

 

A lot of people think God is all loving and he can do no wrong but throughout the entire old testament whenever Israel turned away he would bring disaster and ruin to Israel. He even let other nations invade Israel to take over the nation to show them not to turn away. Now you hear it doesn't matter what you do and what you believe that God always cares no matter what. But then that defeats the purpose of religion because you essentially don't have to care or worship God to get any kind of favors from him. That he does it because he loves you no matter what.

 

The first argument says that, because God punished Israel for their sins, God is (or contains) "evil." This is absurd. An authority can punish their subordinate if the subordinate needs punishment/correction without becoming "evil" or "bad" or whatever definition/connotation you want to put on them. The act of correction/punishment is not inherently evil - in fact, it's often loving. A parent doesn't spank their child because the parent is evil, the parent is trying to instruct the child. A judge doesn't sentence a thief to jail because the judge is evil, the judge is trying to correct behavior in a person. When I shot out the back windows of my dad's garage with my BB gun and got a whipping, I didn't get whipped because my dad was evil, I had been an asshat and deserved punishment. And that punishment taught me that there are consequences to bad actions, and I didn't do that again.

 

God is the curb on the street of life. He gives you direction, and he "bumps" you back in line when you start to veer off course. In the example I quoted, God didn't "bring disaster and ruin to Israel," Israel brought disaster and ruin to Israel. God set up perfectly easy rules to follow, negotiated "covenants" with Israel, and God kept those covenants in good faith with Israel. Israel, time and again, violated God's rules (the Ten Commandments) and Israel turned their back on every single covenant God negotiated with them. That's not on God - that's on Israel.

 

The whole premise that God is evil because Israel sinned is bass-ackward.

 

 

 

The second argument in the explanation is, "Now you hear it doesn't matter what you do and what you believe that God always cares no matter what," which is half straw man, half misinterpretation of the God of the Bible. It also draws a fallacious conclusion "...that defeats the purpose of religion because you essentially don't have to care or worship God to get any kind of favors from him," because that's expressly not what God/Jesus have said in the Bible. Yes, God loves you no matter what, but that doesn't mean that God is going to do anything/everything for you because of that. Again, like a parent, you may love your child implicitly, but that doesn't mean you won't punish them. Nor does it mean that the child can't "break the camel's back" and the parent can't ultimately disown the child.

 

My parents should have done this with their daughter, and although they didn't, she has moooooooooore than earned it. The parent may still love that child, will forever love that child, but if the child wholly turns away from the parent, spurns their teaching and behaves in a way they know the parent abhors, the parent is within their rights to turn away. God is no different.

[bennychico11]

The second argument in the explanation is, "Now you hear it doesn't matter what you do and what you believe that God always cares no matter what," which is half straw man, half misinterpretation of the God of the Bible. It also draws a fallacious conclusion "...that defeats the purpose of religion because you essentially don't have to care or worship God to get any kind of favors from him," because that's expressly not what God/Jesus have said in the Bible. Yes, God loves you no matter what, but that doesn't mean that God is going to do anything/everything for you because of that. Again, like a parent, you may love your child implicitly, but that doesn't mean you won't punish them. Nor does it mean that the child can't "break the camel's back" and the parent can't ultimately disown the child.

 

My parents should have done this with their daughter, and although they didn't, she has moooooooooore than earned it. The parent may still love that child, will forever love that child, but if the child wholly turns away from the parent, spurns their teaching and behaves in a way they know the parent abhors, the parent is within their rights to turn away. God is no different.

 

Would your parents have it within their right to kill their child, then? How about locking that child in their basement and torturing them for eternity?

 

I'm fine with anyone believing in the god of the Bible, but don't ignore all the stories of him commanding armies to slaughter, pillage and rape his children by comparing it to teaching a child a lesson for breaking a window. It's just insane how you can logically be against a human harming another...but god has it within his right if you make him mad!

[knapplc]

The second argument in the explanation is, "Now you hear it doesn't matter what you do and what you believe that God always cares no matter what," which is half straw man, half misinterpretation of the God of the Bible. It also draws a fallacious conclusion "...that defeats the purpose of religion because you essentially don't have to care or worship God to get any kind of favors from him," because that's expressly not what God/Jesus have said in the Bible. Yes, God loves you no matter what, but that doesn't mean that God is going to do anything/everything for you because of that. Again, like a parent, you may love your child implicitly, but that doesn't mean you won't punish them. Nor does it mean that the child can't "break the camel's back" and the parent can't ultimately disown the child.

 

My parents should have done this with their daughter, and although they didn't, she has moooooooooore than earned it. The parent may still love that child, will forever love that child, but if the child wholly turns away from the parent, spurns their teaching and behaves in a way they know the parent abhors, the parent is within their rights to turn away. God is no different.

 

Would your parents have it within their right to kill their child, then? How about locking that child in their basement and torturing them for eternity?

 

I'm fine with anyone believing in the god of the Bible, but don't ignore all the stories of him commanding armies to slaughter, pillage and rape his children by comparing it to teaching a child a lesson for breaking a window. It's just insane how you can logically be against a human harming another...but god has it within his right if you make him mad!

 

I don't know that God "commanded" any of those armies to pillage or rape "his children." I think God stood aside and allowed it to happen (which could make him just as culpable, I suppose), but I don't recall a time when God advocated rape or murder.

 

Would my parents have the right to kill their child? Not in this time or this culture, but in other times/cultures yes, they have had that right. Go back a couple thousand years and think what kind of rights a parent would/should have. Can't judge the entirety of the situation by today's standards. Humanity has been around in some form or another in excess of 200,000 years. Civilization has only existed for 10k to maybe 20k years.

 

And no, I'll agree that a child breaking a window and the ensuing punishment isn't the same thing. It's not intended to be. It's similar; it's an analogy; it's an example of how authorities punish subordinates. Same goes for the judge/citizen example, in which a judge could sentence a citizen to death. There are varying degrees of punishment, so I used varying examples. Clearly a child breaking a window isn't intended to be equivalent to God raining fire and brimstone on Sodom & Gomorrah.