So why is it so hard to believe God is.....

[walksalone]

Organized people are dangerous period. Religion, like every other organizing social custom in the world, serves as a possible enhancement to that. That's the kind of mindset the revolutionaries in France had, and once they rid their country of Christendom, things didn't get any better, and arguably got worse.

 

But religion is generally accepted, even though they pose a greater threat.

 

 

Who is 'they'? Or what? And greater threat than what? Or Who?

 

What is the majority of most wars fought over? Religion

 

What was the reason for the Crusades? Religion

 

What was the reason for the Spanish Inquisition? Religion

 

I think that covers the pretty big events regarding religion, and it's essentially destructive potential.

[JJ Husker]

Walks- I guess my point is, the dbags that got your grandfather beat and father slapped were not following the message of Christianity or the Bible. Really the message of the religion is not bad. Unfortunately people will and do apply it wrong often. If I teach my children to do the right things but later in life they go astray due to peer pressure, society, etc., that doesn't make the message I tried to convey to them bad. People have been a$$hole$ since the beginning of time. I think it is a little misplaced to blame the religion that had the right message. It is simply human weakness, error, or purposeful manipulation that lead people to act wrongly in the name of that religion. I don't doubt that back in the day the white man didn't commit these actions in the name of Christ. Hell, people still do it today and most likely always will. But when these people act counter to the tenets of the religion, it isn't well placed to blame anything other than the people who did wrong. Their religion may have given them a cover but people like that will always find a vehicle for their wrongs.

[knapplc]

Organized people are dangerous period. Religion, like every other organizing social custom in the world, serves as a possible enhancement to that. That's the kind of mindset the revolutionaries in France had, and once they rid their country of Christendom, things didn't get any better, and arguably got worse.

 

But religion is generally accepted, even though they pose a greater threat.

 

 

Who is 'they'? Or what? And greater threat than what? Or Who?

 

What is the majority of most wars fought over? Religion

 

What was the reason for the Crusades? Religion

 

What was the reason for the Spanish Inquisition? Religion

 

I think that covers the pretty big events regarding religion, and it's essentially destructive potential.

 

So take away religion. Tomorrow everyone decides there are no gods and we just stop with the faiths and we're just people.

 

Do wars still happen? Yep.

 

Do wars like the Crusades still happen? Yep. (like, over oil, or culture, or politics, or whatever. Demagogues exist without religion)

 

Do pogroms like the Inquisition still happen? Yep. Think Hitler, think Stalin, think Pol Pot, think Marx. Religion was not a component - in fact, it was the opponent.

 

 

 

Here's the problem with atheists blaming religion for the world's woes - if you don't think that gods exist, you think that all this religious mumbo-jumbo is entirely man-made. So the ills you put at the feet of religion you're actually putting at the feet of man. Remove religion and you still have man, hence you still have the same ills, the same wrongs - they're just committed in the name of some other "thing." Atheists can't blame religion for anything. They need to blame man, and be realistic about the source of the problem.

[walksalone]

Organized people are dangerous period. Religion, like every other organizing social custom in the world, serves as a possible enhancement to that. That's the kind of mindset the revolutionaries in France had, and once they rid their country of Christendom, things didn't get any better, and arguably got worse.

 

But religion is generally accepted, even though they pose a greater threat.

 

 

Who is 'they'? Or what? And greater threat than what? Or Who?

 

What is the majority of most wars fought over? Religion

 

What was the reason for the Crusades? Religion

 

What was the reason for the Spanish Inquisition? Religion

 

I think that covers the pretty big events regarding religion, and it's essentially destructive potential.

 

So take away religion. Tomorrow everyone decides there are no gods and we just stop with the faiths and we're just people.

 

Do wars still happen? Yep.

 

Do wars like the Crusades still happen? Yep. (like, over oil, or culture, or politics, or whatever. Demagogues exist without religion)

 

Do pogroms like the Inquisition still happen? Yep. Think Hitler, think Stalin, think Pol Pot, think Marx. Religion was not a component - in fact, it was the opponent.

 

 

 

Here's the problem with atheists blaming religion for the world's woes - if you don't think that gods exist, you think that all this religious mumbo-jumbo is entirely man-made. So the ills you put at the feet of religion you're actually putting at the feet of man. Remove religion and you still have man, hence you still have the same ills, the same wrongs - they're just committed in the name of some other "thing." Atheists can't blame religion for anything. They need to blame man, and be realistic about the source of the problem.

 

Hitler, killed the Jews because of their religion.

 

If you don't think religion is a large basis for many of the wars that have happened in the past thousand years, you're pretty naive.

 

As for atheists blaming the woe's of the world on religion, they don't need to because religion does a pretty good job of f*cking things up without any atheists needing to cast any blame...

[JJ Husker]

Good post Knapp. You said what I was trying to say only much better. The events that make it tough are things like the crusades, inquisition, and even pedophilia coverups. When these types of actions commence at the highest levels of the organization it really makes it tough to defend the religion but it does boil down to human failing. I can see how people can blame the religion itself but if a person understands the intended message it becomes clear that people have failed to understand it, implement it, or promote it properly.

[JJ Husker]

Walks- I know you know better than that. Hitler didn't act against the Jews because of their religion or because of his. They simply happened to be the group he directed his hate towards out of convenience. It could have just as easily been black people or Irish or a group of Husker fans. Unfortunately it was Jews who happened to serve his motives.

 

I repeat, it is not religion itself but people misinterpreting the religion or using it wrongly. Religions just happen to be large common groups of people. You get the same things when you divide people up by country, area, nationality, race, etc.

[Landlord]

 

Hitler, killed the Jews because of their religion.

 

If you don't think religion is a large basis for many of the wars that have happened in the past thousand years, you're pretty naive.

 

As for atheists blaming the woe's of the world on religion, they don't need to because religion does a pretty good job of f*cking things up without any atheists needing to cast any blame...

 

 

I say this with all kindness and patience, but you have entirely missed the points being made and divulged into complete strawman arguments that aren't relevant or sensical at all.

[bennychico11]

So take away religion. Tomorrow everyone decides there are no gods and we just stop with the faiths and we're just people.

 

Do wars still happen? Yep.

 

Do wars like the Crusades still happen? Yep. (like, over oil, or culture, or politics, or whatever. Demagogues exist without religion)

 

Do pogroms like the Inquisition still happen? Yep. Think Hitler, think Stalin, think Pol Pot, think Marx. Religion was not a component - in fact, it was the opponent.

 

Here's the problem with atheists blaming religion for the world's woes - if you don't think that gods exist, you think that all this religious mumbo-jumbo is entirely man-made. So the ills you put at the feet of religion you're actually putting at the feet of man. Remove religion and you still have man, hence you still have the same ills, the same wrongs - they're just committed in the name of some other "thing." Atheists can't blame religion for anything. They need to blame man, and be realistic about the source of the problem.

 

Except humans don't have the 'religion' excuse anymore. And they don't have the religious influence anymore. Some of the wrongs might still be committed, but for a reason other than a magical being or some book told them to. It would be a naturalistic explanation, such as "I think all black people are inferior to me for no reason other than I'm of a different race." And hopefully we'd get to a point where the human race says "You're f'ing stupid."

I personally, think that instance like these might be minimized if religion wasn't involved. You forget that religion has a amazingly strong influence on politics and societal beliefs. As well as both psychologically and culturally. And has so for thousands and thousands of years. To save 100,000 Jews from dying in a concentration camp.....or to save one child from being molested because a priest took advantage of him. I think is worth it.

[walksalone]

I say this with all kindness and patience, but you have entirely missed the points being made and divulged into complete strawman arguments that aren't relevant or sensical at all.

 

What part is "strawman"?

[bennychico11]

Walks- I guess my point is, the dbags that got your grandfather beat and father slapped were not following the message of Christianity or the Bible. Really the message of the religion is not bad.

 

Says you? How do we know you have the true interpretation of the message of Christianity or the Bible? I would assume the grandfather or father of Walks' family thought they had the true interpretation...right? I bet the people who told them that message thought they had the true message too? Why is your understanding of the message more true than someone from the Westboro Baptist Church? There must be some way of determining how true this message from the Bible is, correct? I mean, this is from an all knowing god. Why would he create a message that he wants his children to fully know and believe, and then go about and make a cryptic book by anonymous authors that is written in languages that die off so that we must rely on translations of copies of copies? Then rely on priest or other human beings (who you say are fallible...so why would I believe them in first place?)

 

If I teach my children to do the right things but later in life they go astray due to peer pressure, society, etc., that doesn't make the message I tried to convey to them bad. People have been a$$hole$ since the beginning of time. I think it is a little misplaced to blame the religion that had the right message. It is simply human weakness, error, or purposeful manipulation that lead people to act wrongly in the name of that religion. I don't doubt that back in the day the white man didn't commit these actions in the name of Christ. Hell, people still do it today and most likely always will. But when these people act counter to the tenets of the religion, it isn't well placed to blame anything other than the people who did wrong. Their religion may have given them a cover but people like that will always find a vehicle for their wrongs.

 

Again, referring to my questions above...that makes you a terrible parent for not trying to reassert what you meant. If your child took your message, then went astray because he didn't understand what you meant fully...or because he's a fallible human. And you did nothing to correct or reaffirm what you meant. What did you expect? That you tell him once and say "welp, it's on you now! I told you once in a book written hundreds of years ago. Now it's torture in hell for eternity for you!"

I pray (pun intended) then that you don't have children...or at least you aren't that cruel.

[walksalone]

Walks- I guess my point is, the dbags that got your grandfather beat and father slapped were not following the message of Christianity or the Bible. Really the message of the religion is not bad.

 

Says you? How do we know you have the true interpretation of the message of Christianity or the Bible? I would assume the grandfather or father of Walks' family thought they had the true interpretation...right? I bet the people who told them that message thought they had the true message too? Why is your understanding of the message more true than someone from the Westboro Baptist Church? There must be some way of determining how true this message from the Bible is, correct? I mean, this is from an all knowing god. Why would he create a message that he wants his children to fully know and believe, and then go about and make a cryptic book by anonymous authors that is written in languages that die off so that we must rely on translations of copies of copies? Then rely on priest or other human beings (who you say are fallible...so why would I believe them in first place?)

 

Asked my Dad, they were Lutheran.

 

Christianity didn't like what my forefathers believed in, so instead of showing tolerance, knocking the crap out of them seemed the easier route.

 

You shouldn't have to rely on what is told to you by a book, or some guy in robes telling you what to believe in. You should believe in yourself, because when it comes down to it, you're the only one who will be able to get through what ever tough times befall you...

[JJ Husker]

Sorry I just cannot participate in this discussion anymore. I am at the point where I want to begin questioning how smart some people aren't. Have fun blaming inanimate objects for things people do. Goodnight and God bless (no f'ing pun intended).

[knapplc]

Hitler, killed the Jews because of their religion.

 

If you don't think religion is a large basis for many of the wars that have happened in the past thousand years, you're pretty naive.

 

As for atheists blaming the woe's of the world on religion, they don't need to because religion does a pretty good job of f*cking things up without any atheists needing to cast any blame...

 

WOW you are trying really, really hard to blame religion for things.

 

Hitler, eh? I suppose if you don't know much about history, you'd think the Holocaust was just "Hitler killing the Jews." Unfortunately, Hitler also killed non-combat citizens such as Poles, Romanians, Russians, French, Dutch, Norwegians, & English, plus gypsies, homosexuals, the disabled, political opposition, diplomats and labor leaders in the various countries they conquered. In total he killed about an equal number of non-Jews and Jews. Hitler's motivations for the war was not "to kill the Jews." It was to create a new world order along the lines of the Roman Empire. It had nothing to do with spreading a religion.

 

The first straw man in your argument is my alleged naivete regarding the "...large basis for many of the wars..." Not only did I not say that, I didn't imply it or in any way infer it. I have no idea where this is coming from.

 

The second straw man you fail to see in your post is this: "As for atheists blaming the woe's of the world on religion..." Nobody said "the woes of the world" were to be laid at the feet of Religion. In fact, I said the opposite - they're to be laid at the feet of man. Again, religion is a man-made concept. Without religion, man and all his motivations exist intact. You're trying so hard to blame things on religion that you're getting carried away. And "religion" isn't the problem anyway. Man is.

[JJ Husker]

Walks- I guess my point is, the dbags that got your grandfather beat and father slapped were not following the message of Christianity or the Bible. Really the message of the religion is not bad.

 

Says you? How do we know you have the true interpretation of the message of Christianity or the Bible? I would assume the grandfather or father of Walks' family thought they had the true interpretation...right? I bet the people who told them that message thought they had the true message too? Why is your understanding of the message more true than someone from the Westboro Baptist Church? There must be some way of determining how true this message from the Bible is, correct? I mean, this is from an all knowing god. Why would he create a message that he wants his children to fully know and believe, and then go about and make a cryptic book by anonymous authors that is written in languages that die off so that we must rely on translations of copies of copies? Then rely on priest or other human beings (who you say are fallible...so why would I believe them in first place?)

 

If I teach my children to do the right things but later in life they go astray due to peer pressure, society, etc., that doesn't make the message I tried to convey to them bad. People have been a$$hole$ since the beginning of time. I think it is a little misplaced to blame the religion that had the right message. It is simply human weakness, error, or purposeful manipulation that lead people to act wrongly in the name of that religion. I don't doubt that back in the day the white man didn't commit these actions in the name of Christ. Hell, people still do it today and most likely always will. But when these people act counter to the tenets of the religion, it isn't well placed to blame anything other than the people who did wrong. Their religion may have given them a cover but people like that will always find a vehicle for their wrongs.

 

Again, referring to my questions above...that makes you a terrible parent for not trying to reassert what you meant. If your child took your message, then went astray because he didn't understand what you meant fully...or because he's a fallible human. And you did nothing to correct or reaffirm what you meant. What did you expect? That you tell him once and say "welp, it's on you now! I told you once in a book written hundreds of years ago. Now it's torture in hell for eternity for you!"

I pray (pun intended) then that you don't have children...or at least you aren't that cruel.

Whoever +3'd this tripe should cower in shame.

 

1- You might have to make the assumption that the intention of the books of the Bible are for good and not evil. You might have to make the assumption that God is good and not bad. And, in your particular case, you might actually have to believe he exists to get there. If you come at it from the angle he doesn't exist and religion is bad, well you get the kind of nonsense you're spewing.

 

2- If you can't tell the Westboro Baptist Church apparently has it wrong, I can't help you.

 

3- Why would God do things the way he did? I'm not smart enough to answer that and you aren't smart enough to even be asking the question. Once again, try to assume for the time being there is an all powerful, all knowing, God and you are a mere human with not a fraction of his understanding. But, I guess you have all the answers and would've done it the right way and God got it all wrong. It sort of sounds like an uneducated immature five year old telling their parent how stupid they are.

 

4- You can struggle all you want with copies of copies, questionable translations, and possible differences of literal or figurative interpretations but it is not that difficult for a person who has good in their heart and confidence the message is a good one. The second you see it getting used for illicit purposes is the moment you need to begin thinking something isn't right. That problem is not of the message but rather with people.

 

5- You have a bit of a point when it is the clergy themselves distributing the wrong message. But, once again, I think a reasonable person should be able to recognize the message is getting twisted. But it can be a compounding problem if and when the clergy mucks it up and people ignore their inner instincts. Those inner instincts would be your conscience and the Holy Spirit if you happen to be in any position to actually acknowledge and receive the Holy Spirit. A person without access to the Holy Spirit just might start wondering why the dipwads in the Westboro Baptist Church aren't right.

 

6- You are making a bad assumption and creating a strawman if you think I or God have not reasserted the message. As for me (yes I am a parent, 18 yr old & 13 yr old), I assure you the messages have been reasserted ad nauseum. I also can assure you that so far the kids are absolutely fine and we've done as good of a job as could be hoped for. Thanks for being constructive and, while not knowing dick about me, accusing me of being a bad parent or hoping I don't have children. That must just be an example of some of that neat atheist compassion on which you base your jacked up beliefs. As for God reasserting his message, I hear it reasserted every week in mass, at Bible studies when I attend them, and I always have access to that old dusty, cryptic Bible that for some reason you have trouble understanding or believing it conveys a good message. Don't assume everyone else fails to comprehend the message and validity thereof just because you were apparently miserable at it.

 

3+ for that? WTF.

 

Edit-

If we need to continue this discussion, it should probably be moved to the shed. Sorry, but if somebody is going to pop in out of left field and groundlessly accuse me of being a bad parent or claim I should not even have children, it could get interesting.

[lo country]

It is odd reading this thread that people blame religion for many of its past and even current failures, but gives no credit for its humanitarian outreach. As Knapp so eloquently put above ref violence and religion if you take "religion" out of the mission field, would the missions still be completed. IMO, no. The missions succeed because of religion from its funding, volunteers, outreach and logistical support and calling from Christ to help those in need.

 

I will also bring up abortion. Many do not believe that life begins at conception. (not wanting to start a discussion on this issue), but as Christians oppose abortion and they have the belief that it is murder, they are often berated for this view. They caused wars....bad. They believe in the sanctity of life......bad.

 

Religion, in certain cases and places, takes on more of the role of a government than an institution. For me, it is about a relationship. People get caught up in the traditions of man instead of following the commands of Christ. For example to "belong to this church you need to do A, B and C." IMO, people get caught up in following the church and its edicts instead of Christ and his.

 

Sadly, these discussion, like politics become nothing more than the sound of clanging gongs competing to be the loudest...............

 

Just my .02.