Hope and Change vs Reality : 33 Shocking Facts

[knapplc]

But that's not how you presented the thread. You did not present this as "Congress has failed America," you specifically referenced Obama, and even after your edit noted in this post, the thread title specifically points to Obama.

 

You can't claim to be equally denouncing everyone in congress with this nonsense. Nobody buys it.

[carlfense]

Carl, I truly hope so. Yea, I 'rag' on him too much (I think he acts un-presidential - not a leader- blame game, Chicago politics, not a uniter).

Those are easily repeated buzz words. What are you actually referring to?

 

I hope ACA surprises me and I become a big fan - however, just have a hard time wt the levels of spending by this govt. If GWB or McCain or Romney were our current pres and doing the same, I'd have a hard time with it.

If the ACA fails, we can try the left's preferred option.

 

 

Stutus Quo- voted for the ACA against the wish of the majority of citizens (and no bi-partisan support) . . .

Many (perhaps even most) Americans can't even explain what the ACA is or does. This is probably unsurprising given the all out propaganda campaign waged by opponents. (Insert Pelosi quote here.) Poll questions regarding discrete sections of the ACA hint at a very different outcome.

 

. . . and still refuse to acknowledge that most citizens are not for it based on polls ( as welll as the 2010 election which was a type of poll - specifically a vote against govt overreach - 2014 may be another).

The bold is quite telling. 2010 was a referendum against Obamacare. 2014 may be another referendum against Obamacare.

 

The conditional referendum in 2014 and the complete omission of 2012 are just . . . perfect.

 

 

Obama saying 'no negotiation' is pretty much a 'purist' statement in light of all of the issues coming to light about ACA.

Which Obama quote are you referring to? Could you post the whole quote?

[JJ Husker]

But that's not how you presented the thread. You did not present this as "Congress has failed America," you specifically referenced Obama, and even after your edit noted in this post, the thread title specifically points to Obama.

 

You can't claim to be equally denouncing everyone in congress with this nonsense. Nobody buys it.

 

Boy, and I thought I gave the pot a big old stir with my comments.

 

To be fair though, we can't simply write off everything that has transpired these last 6 years as solely congresses fault. At least that's not the storyline I remember when Bush was Pres. Bush had plenty of shortcomings to be held accountable for sure but he also took the heat for what is now simply being considered congressional problems. Between Bush preceding him and this pathetic congress, will Obama ever be held to account for anything? I don't think he has been as bad as some on the far right would like to believe but I am really struggling trying to find anything good enough for him to be considered anything less than a subpar President. Basically, it's like we have not had any leadership at all during his term. Other than Obamacare and a faltering economy, what does he have to show for it?

[Junior]

But that's not how you presented the thread. You did not present this as "Congress has failed America," you specifically referenced Obama, and even after your edit noted in this post, the thread title specifically points to Obama.

 

You can't claim to be equally denouncing everyone in congress with this nonsense. Nobody buys it.

 

Boy, and I thought I gave the pot a big old stir with my comments.

 

To be fair though, we can't simply write off everything that has transpired these last 6 years as solely congresses fault. At least that's not the storyline I remember when Bush was Pres. Bush had plenty of shortcomings to be held accountable for sure but he also took the heat for what is now simply being considered congressional problems. Between Bush preceding him and this pathetic congress, will Obama ever be held to account for anything? I don't think he has been as bad as some on the far right would like to believe but I am really struggling trying to find anything good enough for him to be considered anything less than a subpar President. Basically, it's like we have not had any leadership at all during his term. Other than Obamacare and a faltering economy, what does he have to show for it?

 

Bush was able to pass laws (including the prescription drug bill) and got his war in Iraq that cemented his legacy. The ACA is Obama's lasting legacy and we'll actually need to see it implemented to know if it is a failure or not. It would be helpful if the current congress had spent the last 3 years working to successfully implement the law, rather than throwing a hissy fit over their loss.

[tschu]

There's no reason to try to use logic on people like this, knapp

 

Hardcore Repubs live in their own little made-up reality, one which we cannot destroy or change

[carlfense]

I don't think he has been as bad as some on the far right would like to believe but I am really struggling trying to find anything good enough for him to be considered anything less than a subpar President. Basically, it's like we have not had any leadership at all during his term. Other than Obamacare and a faltering economy, what does he have to show for it?

Obamacare: We'll see!

Faltering economy: what are you referring to?

 

Dodd-Frank

Consumer Protection Act

Ended Iraq War

Will end Afghanistan War

Killed Osama Bin Laden

Ended DADT

Ended W. era torture

Etc.

 

Too soon for a definitive answer . . . but I suspect that he'll fall just outside of the top third. Good, but not great. Plenty of time for things to get better or worse before 2016. If his opponents are still talking about Benghazi at that time, I'd be comfortable guessing that his ranking will be better than I suspected.

[commando]

There's no reason to try to use logic on people like this, knapp

 

Hardcore Repubs live in their own little made-up reality, one which we cannot destroy or change

 

hardcore dems also live in their own little made-up reality. plenty of blame on all sides of this IMO. i wish we had 2 parties working together for the american interest....not just their own personal agendas.

[TGHusker]

Carl, I truly hope so. Yea, I 'rag' on him too much (I think he acts un-presidential - not a leader- blame game, Chicago politics, not a uniter).

Those are easily repeated buzz words. What are you actually referring to?

Carl, I know you are one of the smartest guys on here - don't play the game. Presidents should lead all of us - they don't pit one group against another. They inspire the best in all of us and don't cut down one group for the sake of others. They don't lead "from behind' (as some would say), we know what Chicago politics is - (and yes even repubs have used it )

 

I hope ACA surprises me and I become a big fan - however, just have a hard time wt the levels of spending by this govt. If GWB or McCain or Romney were our current pres and doing the same, I'd have a hard time with it.

If the ACA fails, we can try the left's preferred option.

Yes, single payor - or if the repubs win out in 2014 & 16 - then a total revanping including tort reform, selling health care across state lines for greater competition, etc

 

 

Stutus Quo- voted for the ACA against the wish of the majority of citizens (and no bi-partisan support) . . .

Many (perhaps even most) Americans can't even explain what the ACA is or does. This is probably unsurprising given the all out propaganda campaign waged by opponents. (Insert Pelosi quote here.) Poll questions regarding discrete sections of the ACA hint at a very different outcome.

Carl, this could be true - their is a lot of unknows and yes we won't know what is in it until it is implimented - to play on Pelosi's words. The true poll will be 2014 when implementation occurs. Even wt that the employer mandate is put off - so the full affects may take a couple of years.

And Yes, If I am pleasantly surprised, I'll be glad to admit I was wrong - Carl save this quote until the 2016 election and remind me of it.

 

. . . and still refuse to acknowledge that most citizens are not for it based on polls ( as welll as the 2010 election which was a type of poll - specifically a vote against govt overreach - 2014 may be another).

The bold is quite telling. 2010 was a referendum against Obamacare. 2014 may be another referendum against Obamacare.

 

The conditional referendum in 2014 and the complete omission of 2012 are just . . . perfect.

Already discussed in a different thread: 2010 immediate voter response to ACA, 2012 status quo - ACA still theory, not felt by the voters, Repubs run a candidate that isn't diff than Obama on health care, 2014 - referendum if the ACA causes pain - yet to be seen

 

Obama saying 'no negotiation' is pretty much a 'purist' statement in light of all of the issues coming to light about ACA.

Which Obama quote are you referring to? Could you post the whole quote?

 

http://www.pbs.org/n...down_10-07.html

PRESIDENT OBAMA: We're to the going to negotiate under the threat of further harm to our economy and middle-class families. We are not going to negotiate under the threat of a prolonged shutdown until Republicans get 100 percent of what they want.

Above, Obama uses scare tactics on harm to economy and families - the point the Repubs were trying to make - current budget, and ACA are hurting the economy and families. Also, Negotiation is meant to bring the repubs from their 100% position and also to move the dems from their 100% position. Both sides needed to move for there to be negotiation. Obama was taking more of a Total Surrender stance - (like MacArthur had over Japan - Japan had nothing to negotiate).

 

The verbiage also came from verbal communication between the Speaker and the Pres as noted in these articles.

http://www.usatoday....eiling/2944019/

http://www.huffingto..._n_4064154.html

[JJ Husker]

 

Bush was able to pass laws (including the prescription drug bill) and got his war in Iraq that cemented his legacy. The ACA is Obama's lasting legacy and we'll actually need to see it implemented to know if it is a failure or not. It would be helpful if the current congress had spent the last 3 years working to successfully implement the law, rather than throwing a hissy fit over their loss.

Obamacare: We'll see!

Faltering economy: what are you referring to?

 

Dodd-Frank

Consumer Protection Act

Ended Iraq War

Will end Afghanistan War

Killed Osama Bin Laden

Ended DADT

Ended W. era torture

Etc.

 

Too soon for a definitive answer . . . but I suspect that he'll fall just outside of the top third. Good, but not great. Plenty of time for things to get better or worse before 2016. If his opponents are still talking about Benghazi at that time, I'd be comfortable guessing that his ranking will be better than I suspected.

There's no reason to try to use logic on people like this, knapp

 

Hardcore Repubs live in their own little made-up reality, one which we cannot destroy or change

 

hardcore dems also live in their own little made-up reality. plenty of blame on all sides of this IMO. i wish we had 2 parties working together for the american interest....not just their own personal agendas.

 

All more than reasonable comments, excepting tschu's of course.

[suh_fan93]

But that's not how you presented the thread. You did not present this as "Congress has failed America," you specifically referenced Obama, and even after your edit noted in this post, the thread title specifically points to Obama.

 

You can't claim to be equally denouncing everyone in congress with this nonsense. Nobody buys it.

[carlfense]

Presidents should lead all of us - they don't pit one group against another. They inspire the best in all of us and don't cut down one group for the sake of others. They don't lead "from behind' (as some would say), we know what Chicago politics is - (and yes even repubs have used it )

More buzzwords. What are you talking about? I’m not playing dumb. I’m quite serious. We’ve seen that when President Obama embraces Republican ideas they reject those ideas.

 

There is literally nothing that President Obama could do to get a certain population to accept him. Nothing. Let’s not pretend otherwise.

 

Yes, single payor - or if the repubs win out in 2014 & 16 - then a total revanping including tort reform, selling health care across state lines for greater competition, etc

Tort reform is a red herring.

 

Selling across state lines? Sounds great:

The Affordable Care Act allows health care to be sold across State lines when both States agree and consumer protections are maintained.

http://www.hhs.gov/a...t20110525a.html

 

Already discussed in a different thread: 2010 immediate voter response to ACA, 2012 status quo - ACA still theory, not felt by the voters, Repubs run a candidate that isn't diff than Obama on health care, 2014 - referendum if the ACA causes pain - yet to be seen

Again, 2010 was a referendum as an immediate response (even though you admit that the ACA was not yet felt by voters). 2012. Sure, Obama was re-elected and Democrats held the Senate and won more votes than Republicans but it wasn’t a referendum on the ACA.

 

Heads the GOP wins. Tails Obamacare loses.

 

http://www.pbs.org/n...down_10-07.html

PRESIDENT OBAMA: We're to the going to negotiate under the threat of further harm to our economy and middle-class families. We are not going to negotiate under the threat of a prolonged shutdown until Republicans get 100 percent of what they want.

“Obama reiterates no negotiation under shutdown threat . . .”

 

Well then, that’s a bit different than simply refusing to negotiate, isn’t it?

 

 

Also, Negotiation is meant to bring the repubs from their 100% position and also to move the dems from their 100% position.

What, again, was the GOP willing to give up? Asking for less than 100% of what they want is not negotiating.

[sd'sker]

tort reform and 'chicago-style' politics. talk about thought-ending cliches.

[carlfense]

tort reform and 'chicago-style' politics.

AND "failure to lead." Generally closely followed by a complaint about how Obama keeps making speeches.

[TGHusker]

Not much more I can say - we won't agree on other than

:spooners

[sd'sker]

Not much more I can say - we won't agree on other than

reasonable minds can differ (except on hating ut). it is no big deal. all that matters is that you have evidence for your assertions.