Ulty Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I'm impressed by the depth, civility, and intellect of this conversation. I wish I had something of importance to add, but the questions about religious beliefs that come to mind perhaps belong in a different thread. Overall, I would ask the believers, even if (a) God is real and can be compatible with scienctific knowledge, why do people believe and what difference does it make if you ( or anyone) is wrong, and what is the point of worshipping such an unknowable and untouchable entity? 1 Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Ulty- Why do people believe? The answer is probably as varied as those who do believe. For me, it is simply the culmination of my experiences. I think there has to be a reason why we are here and that thought alone leads me to the belief we were created and have an ultimate purpose. I wish I could explain that better but it just seems more logical than a random chance happening to me. I have also had two very specific things happen that make me more sure than some. I saw my mothers soul/spirit leave her body when she passed and I experienced a miraculous healing that my surgeon had absolutely no explanation for. I realize the non-believers minds have immediately gone into a search for scientific reasons for these two occurances. These are anecdotal and quite possibly can only be believed by me but it is what it is. I am sure a lot of why I believe is based on being raised and taught that there is a God. I also am pretty certain a person has to be receptive to it to even be able to accept it. In the context of your question, it makes no difference if anyone is right or wrong. The only difference it could make would be if you were a nonbeliever and there is a God. Your third question is a lot more complicated and is probably better suited for a religious discussion than this God or science topic. I will say he is not unknowable and not untouchable. Quite the opposite is actually true but it takes effort. It can't simply be read in a book or watched in a movie. God provides graces to experience him to those who search for him. 2 Link to comment
Landlord Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 Overall, I would ask the believers, even if (a) God is real and can be compatible with scienctific knowledge, why do people believe and what difference does it make if you ( or anyone) is wrong, and what is the point of worshipping such an unknowable and untouchable entity? The answer is, essentially, if you do "faith" the way you're supposed to, then you are actually putting your faith in something. I have a difficult time putting it into words, but the apostle Paul said it well when he said that if Christ isn't resurrected from the dead (that is, if He isn't really God and it's all a lie), then we should be pitied more than all men. Why? Well, hopefully because we put all of our stock and treasure and hope and confidence into that being true - we went all in. I'd also say your question is a bit of a misnomer, as anyone of faith will say that their God isn't unknowable or untouchable. I believe, as a Christian, that God Himself the Holy Spirit is dwelling inside my heart, shaping my passions and convictions, and being counselor and mediator. I also believe that through Jesus' death and resurrection, I now have intimate access to the Father, as His son. So it makes a great world of difference. I mean there is the whole salvation versus damnation part, but even ignoring the fire and brimstone tactic, the difference it makes is a truly wasted life one way or the other. Either you give all of yourself to something and it is either true or false, or you go through life never devoting yourself to anything, which isn't how I would think life to be. Husker_x thanks for the post I'm going to respond as soon as I have something worthwhile to respond with! Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I don't know. For me, it's easier to believe a force or higher power has always existed than a bunch of meaningless stuff floating around in nothing. But....that's just me. Genuine question... why is that easier to believe? the beginning of life itself just doesn't make sense without a creator. Why is a creator performing magic necessary to the origin of life? How is that more sensible than possible naturalistic explanations? No matter which side of this your beliefs are on, you have to finally get to a point where "Magic" happens. Or, to put it another way, the origin of life begins at a point that the human brain is incapable of understanding. Specifically, where did the first of anything come from? If you believe in God, where did God come from? If you don't believe in God, where did the mass of dust come from that exploded and started this entire thing we are involved in? That question alone is so huge that to me, it takes a higher power to be involved. Also, the question of what is beyond space? Space is never ending. Really? That is logical? These questions are honestly something that I believe science and the human brain will never be able to understand or comprehend. Take the origin of the dust. OK...so science discovers the dust came from some other "happening"....where did that "happening" come from? Then, you take all of that and you add it to all of my other questions as to "why". Why do we care? Why do we love? Why do we have feelings that make us care about each other. If you really think about it, it is very illogical if we are nothing more than a chemical reaction. I feel sorry for kids who grow up in miserable places like the middle east because they are destined to either be killed or be around killing because of simply where they grew up. Why do I care? I don't know them? Why do I care if I run over your child with my car and kill her? Why do you care? Why do we care if we leave the earth in good shape for future generations? To me, none of that makes sense if we are nothing more than a chemical reaction. If that were true, everything is meaningless. 1 Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Another point that I just kind of usually chuckle to myself about is.....what is the harm if I'm wrong? If I'm wrong, I've simply spent my life believing something that isn't true. If someone who doesn't believe in God is wrong...well....the after life sounds pretty bad....LOL. 1 Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 ...some people, either by choice or by capability or both, are incapable of beginning to grasp the concept of a creator or God. I hope to be corrected if wrong, but I believe that most people on the not-God side of this conversation were at one time Theists, and as likely as not, Christian. So I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that anyone's incapable of grasping that concept. It's a pretty easy concept to grasp. Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 ...some people, either by choice or by capability or both, are incapable of beginning to grasp the concept of a creator or God. I hope to be corrected if wrong, but I believe that most people on the not-God side of this conversation were at one time Theists, and as likely as not, Christian. So I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that anyone's incapable of grasping that concept. It's a pretty easy concept to grasp. Incapable was a bad choice of words as I believe everyone is capable at some point and probably at all points of their life. I was wrong to say it was simply a choice or capability issue. There is unwillingness and all sorts of faith breaking moments that may contribute. I believe it is much easier to not have faith or belief than it is to keep nurturing it. It would be rather simple to jump off the ship if one chose to do so. A bad experience, witnessing something- many things that indicate there must be no God because X happened or Y didn't happen, the possible reasons are limitless. However, I think people can become almost incapable of grasping it. If I never attended church, never read the Bible, didn't have some of the experiences I have had, it would be highly likely I could be in that group. As Landlord said above, some things just take faith. If a person is not willing to commit to that level and keep at it, they may very well struggle with it. Also as he alluded to, it requires acceptance of the Holy Spirit. I imagine that would be an almost impossible thing to experience for a person who needs physical evidence before believing. Faith and then acting on that faith as an absolute truth is what is required. I think some people just don't get there or can't stay there for a myriad of reasons. 2 Link to comment
The Dude Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 No matter which side of this your beliefs are on, you have to finally get to a point where "Magic" happens. Or, to put it another way, the origin of life begins at a point that the human brain is incapable of understanding. Specifically, where did the first of anything come from? If you believe in God, where did God come from? If you don't believe in God, where did the mass of dust come from that exploded and started this entire thing we are involved in? That question alone is so huge that to me, it takes a higher power to be involved. Also, the question of what is beyond space? Space is never ending. Really? That is logical? These questions are honestly something that I believe science and the human brain will never be able to understand or comprehend. Take the origin of the dust. OK...so science discovers the dust came from some other "happening"....where did that "happening" come from? Neil DeGrasse Tyson - On God of the Gaps Another point that I just kind of usually chuckle to myself about is.....what is the harm if I'm wrong? If I'm wrong, I've simply spent my life believing something that isn't true. If someone who doesn't believe in God is wrong...well....the after life sounds pretty bad....LOL. What if you believe in the wrong god, and the actual god is none too happy about that? Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 What if you believe in the wrong god, and the actual god is none too happy about that? The Greeks covered their bases on this one with their "Temple to the Unknown God." Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Another point that I just kind of usually chuckle to myself about is.....what is the harm if I'm wrong? If I'm wrong, I've simply spent my life believing something that isn't true. If someone who doesn't believe in God is wrong...well....the after life sounds pretty bad....LOL. What if you believe in the wrong god, and the actual god is none too happy about that? That's my risk I guess. Link to comment
Ulty Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Another point that I just kind of usually chuckle to myself about is.....what is the harm if I'm wrong? If I'm wrong, I've simply spent my life believing something that isn't true. If someone who doesn't believe in God is wrong...well....the after life sounds pretty bad....LOL. What if you believe in the wrong god, and the actual god is none too happy about that? I would hope that the same God who supposedly gives us unconditional love and grace would not be so insecure that we'd be cast into hell simply for not worshipping him or believing hard enough. If he needs so much attention, why not make his presence a little more obvious? Host a shareholders meeting or something. Something like this would suffice: Link to comment
JJ Husker Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Neil DeGrasse Tyson - On God of the Gaps From my point of view, that video is a straw man argument. Who is out there saying dark matter IS God? Some scientist that needs proof he exists in this realm somehow, that's who. Who that believes in God only believes in the gaps of scientific knowledge? I sure don't. Just because a person believes in God and claims he created everything does not mean the only reason for that belief is lack of knowledge. Also, as much as Neil would like us to think scientific discovery and knowledge somehow disproves God, it does not. Science simply provides an exhibitable way for us to explain what happened or what may happen. It provides the hows and some of the whys but it does not provide the ultimate why. Sure it can be easier, and to some extent more logical, to believe in hard data, evidence and science. So what? A believer cannot provide proof of God and a non-believer cannot provide disproof. It is not incumbent of me to provide proof simply because I claim the belief. If you want to call me crazy or delusional, fine that is your prerogative but ultimately it doesn't matter to me whether or not you share that belief. But, when a scientist or a person who puts all their eggs in the science basket, claims there is no God, then they are responsible for providing the proof if they want me to accept their assertion. 1 Link to comment
knapplc Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 A believer cannot provide proof of God and a non-believer cannot provide disproof. It is not incumbent of me to provide proof simply because I claim the belief. If you want to call me crazy or delusional, fine that is your prerogative but ultimately it doesn't matter to me whether or not you share that belief. But, when a scientist or a person who puts all their eggs in the science basket, claims there is no God, then they are responsible for providing the proof if they want me to accept their assertion. Scientists are required to provide proof but you are not. Those two statements cannot be justified. Let's try this - I believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the one true God. JJ, you must prove me wrong. Go. Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 A believer cannot provide proof of God and a non-believer cannot provide disproof. It is not incumbent of me to provide proof simply because I claim the belief. If you want to call me crazy or delusional, fine that is your prerogative but ultimately it doesn't matter to me whether or not you share that belief. But, when a scientist or a person who puts all their eggs in the science basket, claims there is no God, then they are responsible for providing the proof if they want me to accept their assertion. Scientists are required to provide proof but you are not. Those two statements cannot be justified. Let's try this - I believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the one true God. JJ, you must prove me wrong. Go. If JJ was trying to convince the world to believe in his God then he would need to provide proof. He is not doing that nor am I. 1 Link to comment
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