Homosexuality, Culture, and Theology

[tschu]

Instead of calling him a bigot, do some research and show him where he's wrong so he can adjust his thinking.

 

 

I already f'ing did. Read the thread.

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

The goal is to get to the point where there is no such thing as "normal"

Really? That's kind of odd.

 

Tschu actually said exactly what I was going to. (Not the first time, either!)

 

There was a time when I felt the same way, BRB. But there's statistical normal (the opposite of which is uncommon) and social normal (the opposite of which is weird) -- and these carry vastly different meanings. Social norms are manufactured and exclude those on the outside. There are legitimate and important social norms, but the take-home message for me has been that whomever someone chooses to be intimate with isn't one of them. Whether it's a man and a woman, man and a man, woman and woman, transgendered, ... we're all people in the same way, sharing in the common experience of the same love.

 

Not Voldemort, though. That guy could never understand love and it was the utter ruin of his soul.

 

You are saying we want to get to a point where being gay is socially normal. Meaning, if a gay couple walks into a place of business no one really notices because everyone is just used to it and nobody really cares. That I agree with and I hope we can get to that point. I'm sure that is sort of what Tschu was getting at. However, the way he wrote it sounded kind of funny to me and I was making a small joke.

[knapplc]

 

 

 

Everyone has a right to feel about something however they so choose. That is perfectly fine for them to have those feelings up until they negatively affect the other person in a discriminatory way. It isn't discrimination or bigotry to simply to say gay sex is disgusting or tattoos are disgusting.

 

I'm sure someone in the world would think something I do in the bedroom is disgusting. They are perfectly free to have those feelings and I really don't care until that person tries to outlaw or discriminate against me for what I want to do.

 

I think sometimes these discussions get out of whack because one side or the other just throws up their arms and starts throwing around names/labels and accusations that don't fit with certain situations.

 

 

+1 - but with a couple of reservations.

 

First, I'd totally agree that there are things people do in the bedroom are disgusting. There's a reason no threads exist wherein we all explain our particular fetishes or kinks - it's nobody's business, and I guarantee there's something(s) I do that someone would find objectionable. Those are things it's best we keep to ourselves.

 

And I also totally agree that we all have the right to feel about things however we all choose. You like what you like, I like what I like, and that's the way life works.

 

The bold word there is the only place I'm going to disagree with you. Like gays, hate gays, whatever a person wants to do in the privacy of their own mind is just fine. But when it leaves your skin, either via your mouth or your fingers (typing), that's where I draw the line.

 

I'm free to hate Blacks. I can think the worst things about them, have incorrigible angst and anger regarding them, and that's within my rights inside my own skin. But when I speak , write, or in any way act on that, I'm a bigot, and I'm wrong.

 

The thinking is bad enough. The acting is unsupportable.

 

 

So, do you have freedom of speech only until you might offend someone? When I say the gun carrying jack asses out in Nevada protecting the rancher and his cattle are some of the most idiotic disgusting individuals I have seen in the news lately, that may offend those people if they read that on this board. So, because I might offend them, should I not have the right to say that?

 

(NO....I'm not comparing gay people to idiots who don't like our government)

 

Now, I admire you because you obviously personally have made the decision to not say anything that offends gay people. I try my best at that and I hope I am successful. However, someone else has the right to type on a board that they find gay sex disgusting. You have the right to disagree with them. In my eyes, that's how the world works.

 

 

Freedom of Speech (as it pertains to the 1st Amendment) doesn't apply here because this isn't (and we aren't) a government entity.

 

You have no "right" to say anything. I can kick you off this board for writing the word "the." You can be kicked out of any place of business if you're wearing a bandana, or if you have a tattoo, or if they simply refuse to serve you. That's not bigoted (with obvious Public Accommodation Law exceptions, bap bap bap), that's just how life works.

 

So, can you say those things? Of course you can. Can you suffer consequences for saying those things? Of course you can.

 

The real question isn't Can I, it's Should I? And most of the time, no, you (I) shouldn't. Because it's not morally right to do so. Nobody is throwing that Nevada rancher dude in jail because he spouted off about 'the negros," nor is anyone throwing the Sterling guy from the Clippers in jail. But they're both being shunned because they said stupid, ignorant, hateful things.

 

You can still think gay sex is disgusting (I do too), it's just a problem when you go after Bob and Barry because you don't want them to have the sex in their own homes, or kiss in public or hold hands or whatever.

[BigRedBuster]

Actually, I'm pretty sure I'm the one who understands it. It's OK if you don't. See what I did there? I suppose we can agree to disagree.

 

Sure.

[tschu]

You are saying we want to get to a point where being gay is socially normal. Meaning, if a gay couple walks into a place of business no one really notices because everyone is just used to it and nobody really cares. That I agree with and I hope we can get to that point. I'm sure that is sort of what Tschu was getting at. However, the way he wrote it sounded kind of funny to me and I was making a small joke.

 

Yup yup! Also I missed your joke, damn. I was apparently in super-serious mode reading that, haha

[knapplc]

 

You are saying we want to get to a point where being gay is socially normal. Meaning, if a gay couple walks into a place of business no one really notices because everyone is just used to it and nobody really cares. That I agree with and I hope we can get to that point.

 

 

This is precisely the way I feel. It's why sermons like in the OP bother me so much. There is nothing promoting tolerance or normalcy in that sermon. It's all about how to deal with "them." They are not "them." They are US, and that's what you're saying ^^^ here and what we need to get to as a society.

[tschu]

Regarding freedom of speech:

 

 

"I can’t remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you’re saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it’s not literally illegal to express."

[JJ Husker]

The bold word there is the only place I'm going to disagree with you. Like gays, hate gays, whatever a person wants to do in the privacy of their own mind is just fine. But when it leaves your skin, either via your mouth or your fingers (typing), that's where I draw the line.

 

I'm free to hate Blacks. I can think the worst things about them, have incorrigible angst and anger regarding them, and that's within my rights inside my own skin. But when I speak , write, or in any way act on that, I'm a bigot, and I'm wrong.

 

The thinking is bad enough. The acting is unsupportable.

I want to be sure I understand what you're saying here. So, if I make this statement "I think it is a sin for a married man to have sex with a woman who is not his wife" in writing on an internet message board, or if I speak it audibly, then that makes me a bigot or that is bigoted behavior. Is that what you are saying?

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

 

Everyone has a right to feel about something however they so choose. That is perfectly fine for them to have those feelings up until they negatively affect the other person in a discriminatory way. It isn't discrimination or bigotry to simply to say gay sex is disgusting or tattoos are disgusting.

 

I'm sure someone in the world would think something I do in the bedroom is disgusting. They are perfectly free to have those feelings and I really don't care until that person tries to outlaw or discriminate against me for what I want to do.

 

I think sometimes these discussions get out of whack because one side or the other just throws up their arms and starts throwing around names/labels and accusations that don't fit with certain situations.

 

 

+1 - but with a couple of reservations.

 

First, I'd totally agree that there are things people do in the bedroom are disgusting. There's a reason no threads exist wherein we all explain our particular fetishes or kinks - it's nobody's business, and I guarantee there's something(s) I do that someone would find objectionable. Those are things it's best we keep to ourselves.

 

And I also totally agree that we all have the right to feel about things however we all choose. You like what you like, I like what I like, and that's the way life works.

 

The bold word there is the only place I'm going to disagree with you. Like gays, hate gays, whatever a person wants to do in the privacy of their own mind is just fine. But when it leaves your skin, either via your mouth or your fingers (typing), that's where I draw the line.

 

I'm free to hate Blacks. I can think the worst things about them, have incorrigible angst and anger regarding them, and that's within my rights inside my own skin. But when I speak , write, or in any way act on that, I'm a bigot, and I'm wrong.

 

The thinking is bad enough. The acting is unsupportable.

 

 

So, do you have freedom of speech only until you might offend someone? When I say the gun carrying jack asses out in Nevada protecting the rancher and his cattle are some of the most idiotic disgusting individuals I have seen in the news lately, that may offend those people if they read that on this board. So, because I might offend them, should I not have the right to say that?

 

(NO....I'm not comparing gay people to idiots who don't like our government)

 

Now, I admire you because you obviously personally have made the decision to not say anything that offends gay people. I try my best at that and I hope I am successful. However, someone else has the right to type on a board that they find gay sex disgusting. You have the right to disagree with them. In my eyes, that's how the world works.

 

 

Freedom of Speech (as it pertains to the 1st Amendment) doesn't apply here because this isn't (and we aren't) a government entity.

 

You have no "right" to say anything. I can kick you off this board for writing the word "the." You can be kicked out of any place of business if you're wearing a bandana, or if you have a tattoo, or if they simply refuse to serve you. That's not bigoted (with obvious Public Accommodation Law exceptions, bap bap bap), that's just how life works.

 

So, can you say those things? Of course you can. Can you suffer consequences for saying those things? Of course you can.

 

The real question isn't Can I, it's Should I? And most of the time, no, you (I) shouldn't. Because it's not morally right to do so. Nobody is throwing that Nevada rancher dude in jail because he spouted off about 'the negros," nor is anyone throwing the Sterling guy from the Clippers in jail. But they're both being shunned because they said stupid, ignorant, hateful things.

 

You can still think gay sex is disgusting (I do too), it's just a problem when you go after Bob and Barry because you don't want them to have the sex in their own homes, or kiss in public or hold hands or whatever.

 

 

 

It is your and my right to believe Sterling or the rancher are disgusting human beings for saying the things they did. And, you and I have the right to disagree with them and express that they are a bunch of idiots.

That right to say what we want isn't any less for them as it is for me or you to speak out against them.

 

I'm not sure why you brought up your right to kick me or anyone off the board. Don't think that has anything to do with what I'm saying.

 

Let me explain how I believe homosexual acts pertains to me. I believe it is wrong for me to have sex with another man. I don't care if someone else does. This is no different in my mind as when Amish people think it is wrong for them to drive a car but they don't have a problem if I do. They don't judge me as this horrible human being because I drive a car. But, their religion says they shouldn't drive a car.

 

What is wrong with me having a religion that says I shouldn't do something that is becoming more and more socially acceptable for other people to do?

 

Am I a bigot because I'm a Christian and don't think I should have sex with a man?

[tschu]

Because that thought and that idea breeds the intolerance that negatively affects homosexuals in their daily lives and oh man i wonder if anyone is even reading this sentence when I post it since I think this is the 3rd or 4th time I've said something similar in this thread?

[tschu]

Do we need to have story time with Dr. Seuss?

 

[zoogs]

You are saying we want to get to a point where being gay is socially normal. Meaning, if a gay couple walks into a place of business no one really notices because everyone is just used to it and nobody really cares. That I agree with and I hope we can get to that point. I'm sure that is sort of what Tschu was getting at.

Yup, that's it. It's weird how this thread seems to magnify differences of opinion sometimes in people who basically feel the same way.

 

However, someone else has the right to type on a board that they find gay sex disgusting. You have the right to disagree with them. In my eyes, that's how the world works.

Right with you here. Opinions are open season, though -- not every opinion will get equally embraced, nor deserve it. There's an argument I've seen pop up from time to time that goes, you are being intolerant of my opinion, which is some ironic hypocrisy out of you, mister!...which is a fallacy, IMO.

 

Holding different views doesn't make you a better or worse person, though, and I've seen that intimated at times and don't like it just as much. Particular to this topic, our views are all heavily dependent on background and the weight of inertia, which is much less for people who grew up in this younger generation. There's a common understanding still to come to, one that really crosses all barriers of age and religion (another *potential* source of inertia). I don't want to criticize anybody for who they are or how they think. I do hope to help change people's minds, though, on an important and worthy cause.

 

There's a voice we're missing in this thread, I think, and that's the devout Christian who also believes there's nothing wrong with homosexuality, the person or the act. If we had that, it would help underscore how this isn't a religion vs non-religion issue.

[knapplc]

 

The bold word there is the only place I'm going to disagree with you. Like gays, hate gays, whatever a person wants to do in the privacy of their own mind is just fine. But when it leaves your skin, either via your mouth or your fingers (typing), that's where I draw the line.

 

I'm free to hate Blacks. I can think the worst things about them, have incorrigible angst and anger regarding them, and that's within my rights inside my own skin. But when I speak , write, or in any way act on that, I'm a bigot, and I'm wrong.

 

The thinking is bad enough. The acting is unsupportable.

I want to be sure I understand what you're saying here. So, if I make this statement "I think it is a sin for a married man to have sex with a woman who is not his wife" in writing on an internet message board, or if I speak it audibly, then that makes me a bigot or that is bigoted behavior. Is that what you are saying?

 

 

Oi. We can go waaaaaaaaay down that rabbit hole about this or that statement. Because I don't (and I suspect you don't, either) want to spend the rest of our natural born lives deciding what is or isn't bigotry, however much white or black we add to the gray mixture, I'm not going to answer that.

 

Do you have the right to think it? Of course. Should you say someone else is "sinning" when by your own religion's definition you are the same as them? No, you shouldn't. What good does it do?

 

Now, you and I both know there are a million caveats to those very broad, general statements. What if it's your dad/brother/best friend/someone you have a close relationship with? That's hugely different. In general terms, for broad classes of society, it's not OK to throw around "you're a sinner."

[knapplc]

 

It is your and my right to believe Sterling or the rancher are disgusting human beings for saying the things they did. And, you and I have the right to disagree with them and express that they are a bunch of idiots.

That right to say what we want isn't any less for them as it is for me or you to speak out against them.

 

I'm not sure why you brought up your right to kick me or anyone off the board. Don't think that has anything to do with what I'm saying.

 

Let me explain how I believe homosexual acts pertains to me. I believe it is wrong for me to have sex with another man. I don't care if someone else does. This is no different in my mind as when Amish people think it is wrong for them to drive a car but they don't have a problem if I do. They don't judge me as this horrible human being because I drive a car. But, their religion says they shouldn't drive a car.

 

What is wrong with me having a religion that says I shouldn't do something that is becoming more and more socially acceptable for other people to do?

 

Am I a bigot because I'm a Christian and don't think I should have sex with a man?

 

 

 

RE: The bold - because everyone associates me with the banhammer and I guess it's an easy reference. Kinda the knapplc version of Godwin's Law. It meant nothing and was a poor example. Please forget I said that.

 

RE: The italicized - agreed.

 

RE: The underlined - My biggest concern with an organized religion denouncing "sins" like this is that it can be abused. My experience with the church/churchgoing people is one of love, acceptance, kindness, wholesomeness. I have great memories of the church and the people in it, and if everyone had the same experience with the church that I did, we'd have as much angst against the church as we have against the Girl Scouts. Unfortunately that's not always the case, and when we throw the word "fundamental" in the mix, things go haywire.

 

The churchgoers I'm concerned about aren't you, JJ, Landlord, Streeter - heck, anyone on HuskerBoard, near as I can tell. But religion is prone to zealotry, and zealotry breeds mayhem, and that's what I'm concerned about.

[knapplc]

There's a voice we're missing in this thread, I think, and that's the devout Christian who also believes there's nothing wrong with homosexuality, the person or the act. If we had that, it would help underscore how this isn't a religion vs non-religion issue.

 

 

 

I could have filled this bill a few years ago, but I'm no longer Christian.

 

Someone posted earlier in the thread about this, a self-described Christian, who basically said what you're saying. They posted once and haven't come back.