NUance's testimonial about God

[sd'sker]

Yeah, people are flawed and weak. Religious or otherwise. i just think that a certain amount of morality is innate because of empathy and even enlightened self-interest.

[Scratchtown]

Here are somethings recently that I can testify in my life that are proof to me that God exists and communicates with me through "God winks". I suppose I better state this first...I don't believe in random or coincidence or "karma". Understand that I've been a follower of Christ for the better part of my 26 year old life but have definitely had my times of straying from the faith. These instances are in chronological order.

Instance 1: I made a declaration a few years ago that I was content with being a single dude, working a crap job and basically living on next to nothing so as long as I liked it. Literally out loud, in the manner of shaking my fist at God. I'm tired of trying, I quit, I don't give a crap about being single, I don't care what anyone thinks of me, I don't care if I have zero friends to hang out with because they are all getting married, I ain't going to church! etc...

 

The next morning, I can't walk. I have a nasty pain in my left foot that when I get out of bed and tried to walk I literally fell down to get the weight off my foot. It happened over night that the doctor or I couldn't explain. Needless to say, I ended up in a cast for 2 weeks followed by wearing a boot for another 4. Strangest thing ever to happen to me, in all honesty. After a couple weeks of having the cast on, I kinda laughed one day and said "Ok, God, I'm going back to church" he set me straight at that point. I quit binge drinking alcohol, I started reading the Bible etc. End up meeting the girl of my dreams, my wife.

Instance 2: My life had been changed and Christ had brought me back to him. I was praying at work one day in the early afternoon for the Lord to use me in someones life in a positive way. I leave work and head to football practice and by the end of football practice a former athlete shows up, and starts talking to me about girls. I told him I had just met the most amazing girl in church and we talked about how I was waiting for the marriage bed to do the deed. He immediately got super happy and told me he was praying that he'd have someone to identify with because he was doing the same thing. Again, ridiculous prayer being answered, simple request, and on BOTH ends!

 

Instance 3: I was at work and one of the older gentlemen that worked there for a long amount of time was paired with me to do some foundation work on the head stones at the cemetery. We started talking about Jesus, and the man really knew his stuff admitted to me that he had just been praying to God over the past 2-3 days for him to have someone at work to converse with about Christ. Again, prayer answered, and I was blown away by this one.

 

Instance 4: My wife and I were still in a courtship stage and we were texting about the whole "butterflies feeling" we each had and she told me to promise her to never leave her (meaning don't leave town, as I was thinking of moving to Rapid City), so I promised her that I wouldn't. Over the course of several weeks I was really getting tired of acting like a couple but not being officially a couple. She kept saying she wasn't ready to get into a relationship etc..and after tons of prayers to God about the situation as a whole, I decided to take matters into my own hand and told myself I was getting out. After a slowpitch softball game that night, I decided I was gunna go to her house and tell her I wasn't interested anymore. I get in my car, and when I turn it on, the song on the radio plays "HOLD ON TO THE PROMISES...HOLD ON TO THE PROMISES, JESUS IS ALIVE SO HOLD TIGHT, HOLD ON TO THE PROMISES". I was completely blown away and sat there thinking, "did God just use the radio to speak to me?"

 

Instance 5: This one has to do with my cousin, he just told me this story last night as I was in Aurora. He had recently been in a divorce and through all of the fighting and nonsense that goes with it. In a completely GRACIOUS act, he told her that if they just quit fighting over stuff that he would take on all the debt they had, even after she had milked away all of his money. That be the end of it. The next week at his job, he gets a ridiculous bonus check, that was enough to pay of 2 credit cards and part of a car. He is a devout believer as well. He told me that God couldn't have been more revealed in a time of need than that. Praise God!

 

So after reading this, again, this is just stuff that happened to me, much like NUance had his instances. It's because of these things and there are SOO many more, that I believe God is real. Do with this what you will but man o man. I couldn't have been more real to me than those times I described.

[knapplc]

To be clear, Coach, those are instances you cite as intervention by a higher power, right? But you didn't see this higher power, you don't know what He/She/It looks like, and you can't positively say which one did it, you just believe that it was the Christian God. Yes?

 

Because, being anonymous like that, why couldn't it have been Allah? He heard your prayers, he knows you were praying to a different god but hey - he's pretty easygoing, so he answers those prayers for you anyway because you're his child and he loves you.

 

Same question for Zeus. Same for Odin. Same for Jupiter.

 

Why couldn't it have been any of those gods?

[Scratchtown]

To be clear, Coach, those are instances you cite as intervention by a higher power, right? But you didn't see this higher power, you don't know what He/She/It looks like, and you can't positively say which one did it, you just believe that it was the Christian God. Yes?

 

Because, being anonymous like that, why couldn't it have been Allah? He heard your prayers, he knows you were praying to a different god but hey - he's pretty easygoing, so he answers those prayers for you anyway because you're his child and he loves you.

 

Same question for Zeus. Same for Odin. Same for Jupiter.

 

Why couldn't it have been any of those gods?

Because the Christian God is the God I pray too and my life has been a million times better than it was when I wasn't in constant prayer with him in Jesus Christ's name.

[knapplc]

I get that, but the central question is, how do you know the Christian God is real, and it's not some other really groovy god accepting your prayers to him, taking care of you, even though you're not praying to him?

[Scratchtown]

I feel like that mindset is foolish. I can't even wrap my head around that, to be quite honest. I guess its because I only believe in 1 God. The Christian God.

[Husker_x]

 

There was a documentary that came out in 1972 called Marjoe. It's about the reappearance of a charismatic preacher named Marjoe Gortner. He was "ordained in the Spirit" as a preacher at something like the age of 15. Eventually he left the faith (imbued or not), and after a period of years passed, he returned to the sham circuit to make a documentary film and a living plying his old trade. Amazingly (or not so amazingly if you pay attention to the fakery of charismatics) he was able to duplicate every trick he used to do as an unbeliever. Speaking in tongues, slaying in the Spirit, you name it. The circus-like church atmospheres were the same. Everything was identical to the way it was before, except the preacher--the catalyst for the Holy Spirit manifesting in every congregation--was a deliberate fraud.

 

I've also be overwhelmed by emotions I interpreted as the Holy Spirit on multiple occasions, in groups and in private. I want to be clear about the key point. I interpreted them that way, largely because the group I was in, all of whom were having the same experience, also interpreted it was the Holy Spirit--a kind of confirmation feedback loop. But of course there's no way to verify this. Human beings experience powerful emotions, especially when in groups, especially when the experience is welcome and/or sought, and especially if there is an expectation that an experience should occur. Another personal example: a Mormon once came to my door and after a couple of frustrating sessions with me broke down and claimed he literally saw Jesus in his living room one time (I asked and found out Jesus indeed was a white guy with blue eyes and long brown hair). Can anyone here trump that?

 

Lastly, like knapplc pointed out, these experiences have been and are currently duplicated in every religion, to such a bizarre extent it's almost unbelievable. If you have the right atmosphere with the right ambience, the right moment with the right people, your mind can make anything happen. Here's a video I've posted before. It touches in the Born Again experience and the interesting questions it and things like it raise about the mind, common experience, and other religions.

 

 

 

Do you have links to any clips or good commentary from that documentary?

 

 

Sorry, missed this scanning through the thread.

 

Just go to youtube and type "Marjoe" as your search term. Some people have put up excerpts. Otherwise you can probably find the whole movie online somewhere. It won an Academy Award in the 70s; shouldn't be that hard to dig up.

[Landlord]

Incidentally I stumbled across a show hosted by an illusionist from the UK who is apparently quite popular? He trained a guy to be a faith healer and transplanted him in Texas performing 'miracles'.

 

The interesting part is that the crew was promoting his big event at the 2010 Big XII Championship Game against Oklahoma. A bunch of random Husker fans make an appearance in the episode.

 

 

[TGHusker]

I would have a tremendously difficult time believing in a God who wouldn't answer a man's heartfelt, decades-long prayers to imbue him with his Holy Spirit. Prayers as a child. Prayers as a young man. Prayers as a new husband. Prayers as a grandson/son heartbroken over the loss of family. Prayers as a Church leader seeking guidance and wisdom in his work for the congregation.

 

If God refused to give me his unmistakable Holy Spirit after all that, literally months and months of my life spent in sincere, begging, abject, heartfelt prayer, then the problem wasn't on my end.

Knapp, I'm very sorry for your loss on several levels - I really am. I cannot answer or pretend to know what you went through. I've, in my 58 years, have had several crisis of faith- Dark Night of the Soul - all for different reasons. I've had my share of 'unanswered' prayer also.

 

Sorry for the length of this but I wanted to address several thoughts:

Regarding the Holy Spirit and tongues, I wonder if we miss the mark by associating the gift of tongues as = to receiving the HS. Paul said in 1Corinthians 12-14 that tongues was one of the least gifts (still a gift not to be denounced), it wasn't given nor meant to be given to all, and it was just one of many listed in ch 12. I know many charismatic denominations point to it as a sign of being filled wt the HS, yet there are many who disagree and soundly so (I attend a church that believes it to be a sign of being filled wt the HS - but I disagree wt that one point of doctrine). I think a true sign of being filled wt the HS are the fruit of the spirit of Galatians 5²² But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ²³ gentleness and self-control. We receive the HS at salvation, we grow in maturity (growth isn't marked by knowledge alone but by applied knowledge - wisdom. Knowledge alone = pride and leads to actions/beliefs that aren't Christlike). As we grow, the HS evidence in our life will be love towards others, peace, patience, tolerance, self control etc. I've never heard of a report stating that Mother Teresa or Billy Graham spoke in tongues, but they displayed the fruits of the Spirit - I sure would call them spirit filled. Christians from different theological backgrounds but both greatly used by God in the gift that was given to them. The can be many fillings of the HS in answer to prayer - example in Acts 4 where the disciples prayed for boldness to preach the gospel and stand against the persecution they were facing. It is recorded that they were filled to do just that. Maybe when we pray for patience in a difficult season and we come through it that we were filled by the Spirit for that purpose (patience again is a fruit of the Spirit - a testimony of the Spirit's work in us)

 

 

Guys, I'm bearing my soul here wt my experience and being transparent. Even those of us with faith, struggle - that is why it is called faith. The below is my personal experience and I thought of it after reading Knapp's comment quoted above - Thanks Knapp for sharing and being real. So often we get on political discussions and we label each other (he's on my team or side or not)- but yet we are all human and we all have struggles and also victories. Knapp, Carl, Jr etc may have different viewpoints then me on some issues, but I respect them as individuals and their individual walk/journey through life. For some the below may be just nonsense for others I hope it can be an encouragement in your walk.

 

This is my lesson learned - not to preach to others but hopefully an encouragement to some.

Regarding my Dark Night of the Soul - one of my faith crisis, I had to come to some conclusions. My expectations of what life should be drove me from faith when my perfect or desired world wasn't transpiring. Expectations can be a cruel task master. Most of us if we are real will say that we have despaired with life in some or many ways. Not many of us are born with that silver spoon in our mouths or are immune to life's difficulties and disappointments. I ended up writing a song based on my experience. A pretty dark song reflective of Job's experience and based on Job 3 and the Psalmist in Ps 88 -2 of the most depressing chapters in the Bible. In the end, I concluded that in the midst of my dark days, God gives Himself as light in my darkness, He gives me a meaning full mission (Isaiah 58), and he gives me a over arching purpose: to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with God. Words from my song: Two Paths

 

Two paths before me, which way to go?

Darkness pursues me, it’s my closest friend Ps 88

Friendships abandoned, when will this end?

This is my dark night, dark night of the Soul.

 

Those who walk in darkness shall see light, In His presence gladness shall return Is 9

 

He breaks the bondage, our burdens removed, For He are the Light of the world

Chorus

 

He is the Light of the World, Jesus Christ is the Light of the World Jn 8:12

 

Those who walk in Darkness shall see a great Light, For He is the Light of the World

Vs 2

 

Two paths before me, which way to go? Job 3

Will I walk away or to you draw near Ps 88

What has come upon me? That which I fear

Will I trust or despair in the dark night of the soul

 

Vs 3

 

I argue my case before you why don’t You hear?

Why all this suffering, in this prison I live?

Will the grave give you praise? No thanks shall it give.

I cry out to you. No answer is near.

 

Give yourself to the hungry & the needy, then your light will rise in the darkness Is 58

 

Your gloom will fade away, the Lord will guide your day, For He is the Light of the world

Chorus

Vs 4

 

What is his answer? A question he gives. Job 38:4

Was I there when he laid the foundation of earth?

I have no answer, no wisdom to birth.

I can only bow in humility live.

 

He has told you o, man what is good, And what does the Lord require of you Micah 6:8

 

But to do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God. For He is the Light of the world

Chorus

My lessons learned:

As in Job 3, 38 & Ps 88, God doesn’t answer us directly as to the reason for our dark night but instead gives us Himself (refrain 1: Is9:2 & John 8:12), meaningful service (refrain 2: Is 58:10-11), & an overarching purpose (refrain 3: Micah 6:8). We often go through the cycle of ‘realization of a problem’ then questioning/arguing/bargain wt God, & finally acceptance.

Lam 3 is a good description of the Dark Night and God’s faithfulness to us in it. We might enter the dark night via our own sin, the actions of another, via events outside of anyone’s control or by our own unfulfilled expectations and dreams. But we always enter the dark night under the watchful hand of God with the purpose of our redemption. As seen in Lamentations 3, below, we are challenged to evaluate our ways, our expectations of life and see if God’s ways are the ways we walk. Stress can be described as the gap between our expectations and our reality. We should have Godly expectations and a Godly world view. Though we feel forsaken in our dark time, we never are. We are to remind ourselves of God’s involvement (Lamentations 3:21) and his faithfulness (vs 22-26). Job 3 & 38 and Psalm 88 picture men wrestling with faith during their time in the Dark Night. Jesus, too, tasted this dark night during His passion. He felt the burden of sin (the world’s) and the feeling of being forsaken but yet He displayed the faith that said ‘Never the less, thy will be done’. He saw the Father’s faithfulness through the cross (Heb 12:1-3) – not His redemption but the redemption of mankind via His dark night. Life is often a parallel track – blessings on one track and tragedy on the other track. I believe the 4 keys to surviving the dark night when the track of hardship seems to be prevalent are:

1. Acknowledging Jesus Christ as our Light (Isaiah 9:2) – in Him alone can we be fully satisfied – status, success, relationships and health, etc are temporary sources of happiness. But Jesus in our Light and He provides joy regardless of what life brings us. When we magnify Him in worship and see His love and care towards us, the issues of life become smaller as we gaze on Him instead.
2. Meaningful service: Isaiah 58 tells us that our light will shine and our gloom will fade away as we focus on others and not ourselves. Giving is a reflection of God’s nature. As we give, we create a spring of joy that begins to flow from within. Loving others via our service to them has the additional ‘benefit’ of allowing us to cast our burdens aside and onto God as we focus on the needs of others. Miraculously, our burden becomes lighter as we carry the burdens of others. Faith is at work when we focus on God’s goodness and the needs of others.
3. Humble submission: Micah 6:8 When it comes down to the final absolute truth – we must acknowledge that there is one God and it isn’t ‘me’. He is the Sovereign One. If he chooses to use the hardships of life to conform us to Christ (Rom 8:28-30) that is His right. We are called to serve mankind and to walk humbly with God.
4. Keep growing: None of us have arrived. Christlikeness is a process of becoming, and it come only via our willingness to be come less, so that He is seen more in me. My pride and arrogance must give away to His humility and love. Allow the Holy Spirit to work the fruit of the Spirit in my life as I surrender more to being more like Christ in thought, action and deed.

Lamentations 3 Hope of Relief through God's Mercy

 

End thought: for me the Holy Spirit is given to help us to endure in faith and to testify of God's goodness. In the end it isn't about the gifts (tongues or otherwise) but about Him alone.

[NUance]

 

Seems like there are quite a few HB posters who do not believe in God. I’m one who does believe. And here’s one reason why.

 

I was raised Baptist. My parents dutifully dragged me to Sunday school and church nearly every Sunday while I was growing up. This gave me a good bible background. But my faith stems from an experience I had, not from Baptist doctrine. The last year I attended Sunday school in my church (I was about 18 at the time) I had a really cool, young teacher in my Sunday school class. Mark rode a motorcycle and was a carpenter by trade. (I kid you not—a carpenter. Like Jesus.) Unbeknownst to me Mark was also a Charismatic Christian, a group he belonged to outside of our church. Charismatics are the Holy Rollers you always hear people making fun of. They’re big into the Holy Spirit. And are frowned upon by most conventional churches, including the Baptist church I belonged to.

 

One Sunday during our Sunday school class a friend of mine asked our Sunday School teacher Mark what it meant to be a Charismatic, and what it was all about. Mark explained the Charismatic movement to us, discussed the Holy Spirit, and then taught us a prayer asking for the Holy Spirit to enter our hearts. The Holy Spirit moved him to briefly speak in tongues. At that time I felt the Holy Spirit enter and overwhelm me. I was imbued with the Holy Spirit. It was an incredibly powerful experience, and lasted for most of that day. It was an experience like no other in my life. It made a great impression upon me. It made me know that God is real. But the speaking in tongues episode did not work out so well for my Sunday school teacher. The powers that be in our little Baptist Church did not look favorably upon Mark's demonstration of the Holy Spirit. Sadly, they removed him from our Sunday School class and he did not teach again after that. They may have even asked him to leave the church. I never saw him at that Church again.

 

I’m not a Charismatic Christian. And I certainly don't claim to have all the answers. But that one experience of being imbued by the Holy Spirit was enough for me realize the truth of God. To know the truth of God. I feel sorry for people who are adamant atheists. They are going down the wrong path.

 

What language did he speak when he 'spoke in tongues?' Just curious.

 

No language that anyone there understood. Probably no language at all. It didn't sound like a language anyway.

[NUance]

 

I would have a tremendously difficult time believing in a God who wouldn't answer a man's heartfelt, decades-long prayers to imbue him with his Holy Spirit. Prayers as a child. Prayers as a young man. Prayers as a new husband. Prayers as a grandson/son heartbroken over the loss of family. Prayers as a Church leader seeking guidance and wisdom in his work for the congregation.

 

If God refused to give me his unmistakable Holy Spirit after all that, literally months and months of my life spent in sincere, begging, abject, heartfelt prayer, then the problem wasn't on my end.

Knapp, I'm very sorry for your loss on several levels - I really am. I cannot answer or pretend to know what you went through. I've, in my 58 years, have had several crisis of faith- Dark Night of the Soul - all for different reasons. I've had my share of 'unanswered' prayer also.

 

Sorry for the length of this but I wanted to address several thoughts:

Regarding the Holy Spirit and tongues, I wonder if we miss the mark by associating the gift of tongues as = to receiving the HS. Paul said in 1Corinthians 12-14 that tongues was one of the least gifts (still a gift not to be denounced), it wasn't given nor meant to be given to all, and it was just one of many listed in ch 12. I know many charismatic denominations point to it as a sign of being filled wt the HS, yet there are many who disagree and soundly so (I attend a church that believes it to be a sign of being filled wt the HS - but I disagree wt that one point of doctrine). I think a true sign of being filled wt the HS are the fruit of the spirit of Galatians 5²² But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ²³ gentleness and self-control. We receive the HS at salvation, we grow in maturity (growth isn't marked by knowledge alone but by applied knowledge - wisdom. Knowledge alone = pride and leads to actions/beliefs that aren't Christlike). As we grow, the HS evidence in our life will be love towards others, peace, patience, tolerance, self control etc. I've never heard of a report stating that Mother Teresa or Billy Graham spoke in tongues, but they displayed the fruits of the Spirit - I sure would call them spirit filled. Christians from different theological backgrounds but both greatly used by God in the gift that was given to them. The can be many fillings of the HS in answer to prayer - example in Acts 4 where the disciples prayed for boldness to preach the gospel and stand against the persecution they were facing. It is recorded that they were filled to do just that. Maybe when we pray for patience in a difficult season and we come through it that we were filled by the Spirit for that purpose (patience again is a fruit of the Spirit - a testimony of the Spirit's work in us)

 

 

Guys, I'm bearing my soul here wt my experience and being transparent. Even those of us with faith, struggle - that is why it is called faith. The below is my personal experience and I thought of it after reading Knapp's comment quoted above - Thanks Knapp for sharing and being real. So often we get on political discussions and we label each other (he's on my team or side or not)- but yet we are all human and we all have struggles and also victories. Knapp, Carl, Jr etc may have different viewpoints then me on some issues, but I respect them as individuals and their individual walk/journey through life. For some the below may be just nonsense for others I hope it can be an encouragement in your walk.

 

This is my lesson learned - not to preach to others but hopefully an encouragement to some.

Regarding my Dark Night of the Soul - one of my faith crisis, I had to come to some conclusions. My expectations of what life should be drove me from faith when my perfect or desired world wasn't transpiring. Expectations can be a cruel task master. Most of us if we are real will say that we have despaired with life in some or many ways. Not many of us are born with that silver spoon in our mouths or are immune to life's difficulties and disappointments. I ended up writing a song based on my experience. A pretty dark song reflective of Job's experience and based on Job 3 and the Psalmist in Ps 88 -2 of the most depressing chapters in the Bible. In the end, I concluded that in the midst of my dark days, God gives Himself as light in my darkness, He gives me a meaning full mission (Isaiah 58), and he gives me a over arching purpose: to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with God. Words from my song: Two Paths

 

Two paths before me, which way to go?

Darkness pursues me, it’s my closest friend Ps 88

Friendships abandoned, when will this end?

This is my dark night, dark night of the Soul.

 

Those who walk in darkness shall see light, In His presence gladness shall return Is 9

 

He breaks the bondage, our burdens removed, For He are the Light of the world

Chorus

 

He is the Light of the World, Jesus Christ is the Light of the World Jn 8:12

 

Those who walk in Darkness shall see a great Light, For He is the Light of the World

Vs 2

 

Two paths before me, which way to go? Job 3

Will I walk away or to you draw near Ps 88

What has come upon me? That which I fear

Will I trust or despair in the dark night of the soul

 

Vs 3

 

I argue my case before you why don’t You hear?

Why all this suffering, in this prison I live?

Will the grave give you praise? No thanks shall it give.

I cry out to you. No answer is near.

 

Give yourself to the hungry & the needy, then your light will rise in the darkness Is 58

 

Your gloom will fade away, the Lord will guide your day, For He is the Light of the world

Chorus

Vs 4

 

What is his answer? A question he gives. Job 38:4

Was I there when he laid the foundation of earth?

I have no answer, no wisdom to birth.

I can only bow in humility live.

 

He has told you o, man what is good, And what does the Lord require of you Micah 6:8

 

But to do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God. For He is the Light of the world

Chorus

My lessons learned:

As in Job 3, 38 & Ps 88, God doesn’t answer us directly as to the reason for our dark night but instead gives us Himself (refrain 1: Is9:2 & John 8:12), meaningful service (refrain 2: Is 58:10-11), & an overarching purpose (refrain 3: Micah 6:8). We often go through the cycle of ‘realization of a problem’ then questioning/arguing/bargain wt God, & finally acceptance.

Lam 3 is a good description of the Dark Night and God’s faithfulness to us in it. We might enter the dark night via our own sin, the actions of another, via events outside of anyone’s control or by our own unfulfilled expectations and dreams. But we always enter the dark night under the watchful hand of God with the purpose of our redemption. As seen in Lamentations 3, below, we are challenged to evaluate our ways, our expectations of life and see if God’s ways are the ways we walk. Stress can be described as the gap between our expectations and our reality. We should have Godly expectations and a Godly world view. Though we feel forsaken in our dark time, we never are. We are to remind ourselves of God’s involvement (Lamentations 3:21) and his faithfulness (vs 22-26). Job 3 & 38 and Psalm 88 picture men wrestling with faith during their time in the Dark Night. Jesus, too, tasted this dark night during His passion. He felt the burden of sin (the world’s) and the feeling of being forsaken but yet He displayed the faith that said ‘Never the less, thy will be done’. He saw the Father’s faithfulness through the cross (Heb 12:1-3) – not His redemption but the redemption of mankind via His dark night. Life is often a parallel track – blessings on one track and tragedy on the other track. I believe the 4 keys to surviving the dark night when the track of hardship seems to be prevalent are:

1. Acknowledging Jesus Christ as our Light (Isaiah 9:2) – in Him alone can we be fully satisfied – status, success, relationships and health, etc are temporary sources of happiness. But Jesus in our Light and He provides joy regardless of what life brings us. When we magnify Him in worship and see His love and care towards us, the issues of life become smaller as we gaze on Him instead.
2. Meaningful service: Isaiah 58 tells us that our light will shine and our gloom will fade away as we focus on others and not ourselves. Giving is a reflection of God’s nature. As we give, we create a spring of joy that begins to flow from within. Loving others via our service to them has the additional ‘benefit’ of allowing us to cast our burdens aside and onto God as we focus on the needs of others. Miraculously, our burden becomes lighter as we carry the burdens of others. Faith is at work when we focus on God’s goodness and the needs of others.
3. Humble submission: Micah 6:8 When it comes down to the final absolute truth – we must acknowledge that there is one God and it isn’t ‘me’. He is the Sovereign One. If he chooses to use the hardships of life to conform us to Christ (Rom 8:28-30) that is His right. We are called to serve mankind and to walk humbly with God.
4. Keep growing: None of us have arrived. Christlikeness is a process of becoming, and it come only via our willingness to be come less, so that He is seen more in me. My pride and arrogance must give away to His humility and love. Allow the Holy Spirit to work the fruit of the Spirit in my life as I surrender more to being more like Christ in thought, action and deed.

Lamentations 3 Hope of Relief through God's Mercy

 

End thought: for me the Holy Spirit is given to help us to endure in faith and to testify of God's goodness. In the end it isn't about the gifts (tongues or otherwise) but about Him alone.

 

 

A bit earlier tonight I had the thought that maybe the Holy Spirit appears differently to various people or even to the same person at different times in their life. I'm sure some have had experiences similar to mine, but perhaps others have had a more subtle indwelling. I mention this because I had the one experience when I was high school age, but have never had that same experience again. I've prayed and asked thousands of times since then. But nothing. I have no explanation for it. I've tried to lead a good life. Then, this afternoon, it occurred to me that perhaps the Holy Spirit has been in me this whole time. Just not in the pronounced manner that I felt that first few hours. Maybe everyone who prays for the Holy Spirit receives Him. Even if it's in a quiet, unobservable manner. I wish I knew the answer.

[TGHusker]

 

 

I would have a tremendously difficult time believing in a God who wouldn't answer a man's heartfelt, decades-long prayers to imbue him with his Holy Spirit. Prayers as a child. Prayers as a young man. Prayers as a new husband. Prayers as a grandson/son heartbroken over the loss of family. Prayers as a Church leader seeking guidance and wisdom in his work for the congregation.

 

If God refused to give me his unmistakable Holy Spirit after all that, literally months and months of my life spent in sincere, begging, abject, heartfelt prayer, then the problem wasn't on my end.

Knapp, I'm very sorry for your loss on several levels - I really am. I cannot answer or pretend to know what you went through. I've, in my 58 years, have had several crisis of faith- Dark Night of the Soul - all for different reasons. I've had my share of 'unanswered' prayer also.

 

Sorry for the length of this but I wanted to address several thoughts:

Regarding the Holy Spirit and tongues, I wonder if we miss the mark by associating the gift of tongues as = to receiving the HS. Paul said in 1Corinthians 12-14 that tongues was one of the least gifts (still a gift not to be denounced), it wasn't given nor meant to be given to all, and it was just one of many listed in ch 12. I know many charismatic denominations point to it as a sign of being filled wt the HS, yet there are many who disagree and soundly so (I attend a church that believes it to be a sign of being filled wt the HS - but I disagree wt that one point of doctrine). I think a true sign of being filled wt the HS are the fruit of the spirit of Galatians 5²² But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ²³ gentleness and self-control. We receive the HS at salvation, we grow in maturity (growth isn't marked by knowledge alone but by applied knowledge - wisdom. Knowledge alone = pride and leads to actions/beliefs that aren't Christlike). As we grow, the HS evidence in our life will be love towards others, peace, patience, tolerance, self control etc. I've never heard of a report stating that Mother Teresa or Billy Graham spoke in tongues, but they displayed the fruits of the Spirit - I sure would call them spirit filled. Christians from different theological backgrounds but both greatly used by God in the gift that was given to them. The can be many fillings of the HS in answer to prayer - example in Acts 4 where the disciples prayed for boldness to preach the gospel and stand against the persecution they were facing. It is recorded that they were filled to do just that. Maybe when we pray for patience in a difficult season and we come through it that we were filled by the Spirit for that purpose (patience again is a fruit of the Spirit - a testimony of the Spirit's work in us)

 

 

Guys, I'm bearing my soul here wt my experience and being transparent. Even those of us with faith, struggle - that is why it is called faith. The below is my personal experience and I thought of it after reading Knapp's comment quoted above - Thanks Knapp for sharing and being real. So often we get on political discussions and we label each other (he's on my team or side or not)- but yet we are all human and we all have struggles and also victories. Knapp, Carl, Jr etc may have different viewpoints then me on some issues, but I respect them as individuals and their individual walk/journey through life. For some the below may be just nonsense for others I hope it can be an encouragement in your walk.

 

This is my lesson learned - not to preach to others but hopefully an encouragement to some.

Regarding my Dark Night of the Soul - one of my faith crisis, I had to come to some conclusions. My expectations of what life should be drove me from faith when my perfect or desired world wasn't transpiring. Expectations can be a cruel task master. Most of us if we are real will say that we have despaired with life in some or many ways. Not many of us are born with that silver spoon in our mouths or are immune to life's difficulties and disappointments. I ended up writing a song based on my experience. A pretty dark song reflective of Job's experience and based on Job 3 and the Psalmist in Ps 88 -2 of the most depressing chapters in the Bible. In the end, I concluded that in the midst of my dark days, God gives Himself as light in my darkness, He gives me a meaning full mission (Isaiah 58), and he gives me a over arching purpose: to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with God. Words from my song: Two Paths

 

Two paths before me, which way to go?

Darkness pursues me, it’s my closest friend Ps 88

Friendships abandoned, when will this end?

This is my dark night, dark night of the Soul.

 

Those who walk in darkness shall see light, In His presence gladness shall return Is 9

 

He breaks the bondage, our burdens removed, For He are the Light of the world

Chorus

 

He is the Light of the World, Jesus Christ is the Light of the World Jn 8:12

 

Those who walk in Darkness shall see a great Light, For He is the Light of the World

Vs 2

 

Two paths before me, which way to go? Job 3

Will I walk away or to you draw near Ps 88

What has come upon me? That which I fear

Will I trust or despair in the dark night of the soul

 

Vs 3

 

I argue my case before you why don’t You hear?

Why all this suffering, in this prison I live?

Will the grave give you praise? No thanks shall it give.

I cry out to you. No answer is near.

 

Give yourself to the hungry & the needy, then your light will rise in the darkness Is 58

 

Your gloom will fade away, the Lord will guide your day, For He is the Light of the world

Chorus

Vs 4

 

What is his answer? A question he gives. Job 38:4

Was I there when he laid the foundation of earth?

I have no answer, no wisdom to birth.

I can only bow in humility live.

 

He has told you o, man what is good, And what does the Lord require of you Micah 6:8

 

But to do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God. For He is the Light of the world

Chorus

My lessons learned:

As in Job 3, 38 & Ps 88, God doesn’t answer us directly as to the reason for our dark night but instead gives us Himself (refrain 1: Is9:2 & John 8:12), meaningful service (refrain 2: Is 58:10-11), & an overarching purpose (refrain 3: Micah 6:8). We often go through the cycle of ‘realization of a problem’ then questioning/arguing/bargain wt God, & finally acceptance.

Lam 3 is a good description of the Dark Night and God’s faithfulness to us in it. We might enter the dark night via our own sin, the actions of another, via events outside of anyone’s control or by our own unfulfilled expectations and dreams. But we always enter the dark night under the watchful hand of God with the purpose of our redemption. As seen in Lamentations 3, below, we are challenged to evaluate our ways, our expectations of life and see if God’s ways are the ways we walk. Stress can be described as the gap between our expectations and our reality. We should have Godly expectations and a Godly world view. Though we feel forsaken in our dark time, we never are. We are to remind ourselves of God’s involvement (Lamentations 3:21) and his faithfulness (vs 22-26). Job 3 & 38 and Psalm 88 picture men wrestling with faith during their time in the Dark Night. Jesus, too, tasted this dark night during His passion. He felt the burden of sin (the world’s) and the feeling of being forsaken but yet He displayed the faith that said ‘Never the less, thy will be done’. He saw the Father’s faithfulness through the cross (Heb 12:1-3) – not His redemption but the redemption of mankind via His dark night. Life is often a parallel track – blessings on one track and tragedy on the other track. I believe the 4 keys to surviving the dark night when the track of hardship seems to be prevalent are:

1. Acknowledging Jesus Christ as our Light (Isaiah 9:2) – in Him alone can we be fully satisfied – status, success, relationships and health, etc are temporary sources of happiness. But Jesus in our Light and He provides joy regardless of what life brings us. When we magnify Him in worship and see His love and care towards us, the issues of life become smaller as we gaze on Him instead.
2. Meaningful service: Isaiah 58 tells us that our light will shine and our gloom will fade away as we focus on others and not ourselves. Giving is a reflection of God’s nature. As we give, we create a spring of joy that begins to flow from within. Loving others via our service to them has the additional ‘benefit’ of allowing us to cast our burdens aside and onto God as we focus on the needs of others. Miraculously, our burden becomes lighter as we carry the burdens of others. Faith is at work when we focus on God’s goodness and the needs of others.
3. Humble submission: Micah 6:8 When it comes down to the final absolute truth – we must acknowledge that there is one God and it isn’t ‘me’. He is the Sovereign One. If he chooses to use the hardships of life to conform us to Christ (Rom 8:28-30) that is His right. We are called to serve mankind and to walk humbly with God.
4. Keep growing: None of us have arrived. Christlikeness is a process of becoming, and it come only via our willingness to be come less, so that He is seen more in me. My pride and arrogance must give away to His humility and love. Allow the Holy Spirit to work the fruit of the Spirit in my life as I surrender more to being more like Christ in thought, action and deed.

Lamentations 3 Hope of Relief through God's Mercy

 

End thought: for me the Holy Spirit is given to help us to endure in faith and to testify of God's goodness. In the end it isn't about the gifts (tongues or otherwise) but about Him alone.

 

 

A bit earlier tonight I had the thought that maybe the Holy Spirit appears differently to various people or even to the same person at different times in their life. I'm sure some have had experiences similar to mine, but perhaps others have had a more subtle indwelling. I mention this because I had the one experience when I was high school age, but have never had that same experience again. I've prayed and asked thousands of times since then. But nothing. I have no explanation for it. I've tried to lead a good life. Then, this afternoon, it occurred to me that perhaps the Holy Spirit has been in me this whole time. Just not in the pronounced manner that I felt that first few hours. Maybe everyone who prays for the Holy Spirit receives Him. Even if it's in a quiet, unobservable manner. I wish I knew the answer.

 

Luke 11:12-13 Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12"Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

 

Ephesians 1: 12-14 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own^d by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

 

Yes, we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe. There are different times when we experience what you experienced but that isn't the norm - when we have an overwhelming sense of God's presence. That is why we walk by faith and not sight (or feeling). The Holy Spirit then reveals to us more about Christ and how to live Christ like. Some people are given gifts of the spirit that are more outward (thus the discussion on tongues - debate continues as to what is genuine ) and some gifts are less demonstrative - administration, or mercy. etc

[NUance]

Ha ha! The new quoting system strikes again. You can toggle in and out of quote mode when making a post by using the upper left hand corner button that looks like a little light switch. Makes it easier to work with the quotes.

[TAKODA]

Good thread NUance + 1;

 

I know that some of you will roll your eyes with this but by the very nature of threads like these as well as the comments you see posted by our membership I say that these are not created by chance. I want to use Knapp as an example here as I believe he is someone who truly has and is ~ still searching to find the answers regarding his falling from belief. Knapp, I commend you for posting your feelings here in the religious threads as it shows that you have not closed the door totally on what you believe is factual or not. Yes, your post are on the opposite side of mine based on some of your logic and experiences and that is how you feel at this moment in time. However; I know through reading of your (non-religious postings) that you are not one to close your mind to possibilities that you don't have all the answers yet. You also are one who post not just to post but rather because the subject is close to your heart.

 

Will you find the answers you need to get back on the path you were once on but since departed? I can't say but the mere fact that you don't avoid these conversations allows the potential for someone or something to give you a nudge into whatever direction you’re supposed to go. If it is 100% surety that you believe there is not a deity, then that is the path that was meant for you. If it is to open the door for you to find God again, then so be it. The thing is, we all know that there are people on both sides of the fence. Some people have great faith (for reasons of their own) and others have no faith or lost their faith (for reasons of their own). Today, I prayed before I started this very post {insert some of you rolling of eyes} to see if God would give me the answers or aid me in helping "You" my brother find your way. I scoured sources throughout the net and books I have read to find the some words that might help you in your venture. Knowing how you have posted herein and in other religious threads, I have yet to find simple words that may resonate enough to at least open the possibility for you to re-engage in your previously held beliefs. I will continue to search and volley thoughts for you and others to consider. Maybe I am not the one who is supposed to open the door for you, maybe it is NUance who started this thread or one of the other posters that will spark something that starts you back on the path (if it is Gods will that you find him again).

 

I know that by pure logic, it is so much easier to look at life and say there is no God and things just are the way they are because why would a loving God allow bad things to happen to those who seek him out or just good people because we are his children right? I know you and others feel like your prayers go unanswered and this don't make sense to you and believe me, I have felt that way myself at points in my life, but I say to you that it is because we think like men, not like God. Can I explain why things happen or don't happen? No, because I just like you, I am a man and can't see anything outside of my human abilities. Is it wrong for people like yourself to think, search and try to find answers to the questions you seek? I answer this by saying God created us with the ability to inquire and questioning is inevitable parts of the life of faith. We are free to rationalize things as we see fit. Where there is certainty there is no room for faith. I have respect for a God who not only gives us the freedom to reject him, but also includes the arguments we can use in the Bible. God seems rather doubt-tolerant, actually.

 

I realize this long winded post may not help in your quest to logically find the answers you seek and or change the direction or path you are on presently and I know Knapp that your feelings towards God and Jesus is in question but I will also say that feelings deeply affect every relationship. I’ve been married almost 30 years. Name any feeling, good or bad, and I’ve probably had that feeling toward my wife. Yet the commitment to marriage binds me to her regardless of the feeling of the moment.

 

I know there are people on this board that are probably much more in tune with the teachings than I and while I am not here to convert you or anyone else for that matter, nor will I judge anyone or try to convince anyone, you all are entitled to your beliefs, I just thought I would share some of my feelings that I have been feeling since I found the religion thread section here at HB.

[TGHusker]

Takoda - great post. I too am very appreciative of Knapp's post - as I noted in my too long of a post above. Guys we are all on a journey and none of us have arrived. We each have a worldview that helps us to navigate this world and helps us to understand it. Sometimes we tweak that view as we gain new knowledge and experience. That is why I can appreciate all comments on the forums even if they ruffle my feathers from time to time. There are some real smart guys on here (I count Carl and Knapp to be 2 of the top) - I appreciate the insight I get from their posts. It would sure be nice to meet some of these guys some time over

a bev of our choosing and talk about life an of course the tie that binds - Huskers