Mavric Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Banged up inexperienced WR corps. Terrible offensive line play. Offensive system which QB and WR are making all kinds of reads. Offensive coordinator who doesn't know what a TE is. Still expect QB to complete 65%. Yea, that makes sense. I assume you had to raise the bar to 65% so you could argue against a straw man because the only number that's been mentioned is 60% which we did have a QB do on multiple occasions. Quote Link to comment
Saunders Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Tommy was out in bad spots by an OC that didn't have a clue most of the time. That attributes to bad decisions. Possibly, but you're going to really have to sell me on one of Tim Beck's favorite plays being "Arm Punt." 1 Quote Link to comment
True2tRA Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Banged up inexperienced WR corps. Terrible offensive line play. Offensive system which QB and WR are making all kinds of reads. Offensive coordinator who doesn't know what a TE is. Still expect QB to complete 65%. Yea, that makes sense. I assume you had to raise the bar to 65% so you could argue against a straw man because the only number that's been mentioned is 60% which we did have a QB do on multiple occasions. You can assume what you want to assume without being a dick about it. I'll change it to 60%, I don't give a sh#t. The same things affect a QB and his completion percentage regardless of the number or whatever straw man bullcrap you think I'm coming up with. Which QB was that? Taylor? He left, remember? Those things I pointed out all applied to Tommy Armstrong last season, nobody even referenced Taylor Martinez 2-3 years ago. Or we're you bringing up Taylor so you could argue against some straw man when nobody even brought him up in the first place? See, I too can be an a-hole and throw your own logic back in your face. Fact is, Tommy struggled, there were many reasons including himself. I've said as much multiple times. I've repeatedly said Tommy has regressed. BUT, if he's going to be our QB in the future, AND be a successful one, those things I listed will have to improve. They will have to improve regardless of who the QB is. Quote Link to comment
Mavric Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Banged up inexperienced WR corps. Terrible offensive line play. Offensive system which QB and WR are making all kinds of reads. Offensive coordinator who doesn't know what a TE is. Still expect QB to complete 65%. Yea, that makes sense. I assume you had to raise the bar to 65% so you could argue against a straw man because the only number that's been mentioned is 60% which we did have a QB do on multiple occasions. You can assume what you want to assume without being a dick about it. I'll change it to 60%, I don't give a sh#t. The same things affect a QB and his completion percentage regardless of the number or whatever straw man bullcrap you think I'm coming up with. Which QB was that? Taylor? He left, remember? Those things I pointed out all applied to Tommy Armstrong last season, nobody even referenced Taylor Martinez 2-3 years ago. Or we're you bringing up Taylor so you could argue against some straw man when nobody even brought him up in the first place? See, I too can be an a-hole and throw your own logic back in your face. Fact is, Tommy struggled, there were many reasons including himself. I've said as much multiple times. I've repeatedly said Tommy has regressed. BUT, if he's going to be our QB in the future, AND be a successful one, those things I listed will have to improve. They will have to improve regardless of who the QB is. Which of your points did not apply to our offense under Martinez? Or where did you specify that? Quote Link to comment
BigRedBuster Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 The reason why there wasn't much QB competition during TMs era was lack qbs. That also affected what he was asked to do. Quote Link to comment
True2tRA Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Banged up inexperienced WR corps. Terrible offensive line play. Offensive system which QB and WR are making all kinds of reads. Offensive coordinator who doesn't know what a TE is. Still expect QB to complete 65%. Yea, that makes sense. Banged up inexperienced WR corps. Terrible offensive line play. Offensive system which QB and WR are making all kinds of reads. Offensive coordinator who doesn't know what a TE is. Still expect QB to complete 65%. Yea, that makes sense. I assume you had to raise the bar to 65% so you could argue against a straw man because the only number that's been mentioned is 60% which we did have a QB do on multiple occasions. You can assume what you want to assume without being a dick about it. I'll change it to 60%, I don't give a sh#t. The same things affect a QB and his completion percentage regardless of the number or whatever straw man bullcrap you think I'm coming up with.Which QB was that? Taylor? He left, remember? Those things I pointed out all applied to Tommy Armstrong last season, nobody even referenced Taylor Martinez 2-3 years ago. Or we're you bringing up Taylor so you could argue against some straw man when nobody even brought him up in the first place? See, I too can be an a-hole and throw your own logic back in your face. Fact is, Tommy struggled, there were many reasons including himself. I've said as much multiple times. I've repeatedly said Tommy has regressed. BUT, if he's going to be our QB in the future, AND be a successful one, those things I listed will have to improve. They will have to improve regardless of who the QB is. Which of your points did not apply to our offense under Martinez? Or where did you specify that? 2012 is the only season Martinez competed for a full season and completed 60+%. 62% on 368 attempts. He had a healthy Kenny Bell, Enunwa and Turner who had 50, 42, and 32 receptions respectively. BUT TE's Ben Cotton and Kyler Reed had 18 and 24 receptions, combing for 42 total receptions. Jake Long added 6 more. That's 48 total receptions that year from TE's. More combined than Enunwa and 2 less than KB. In 2014 Tommy Armstrong completed 53% on 345 attempts. Kenny Bell and Jordan Westerkamp were the only returning experienced starters who contributed large numbers with 47 and 44 receptions respectively. Kenny Bell was banged up (see above: BANGED UP) much of his senior year. Gutted it out due to lack of options. His third contributor at WR was true freshman Pierson El ( a great option, but inexperienced: see above where I said inexperience) Pierson El had 23 receptions. Here's the fun part about that whole TE thing (my straw man is building facts...huh). TE Cethan Carter and Sam Cotton had 6 and 3 receptions. 9'totql combined catches for the TE's. (see above: TE non-existent in offense) I'm gonna look more because I know for a fact our offensive line that year under Taylor was far more experienced than the group we fielded last year. Not sure where you can find the number of snaps each guy played on those offensive lines, but Qvale, Sirles, Pelini, Spencer Long, Choi and Rodriguez were up there for Martinez in 2012. I think I've made it pretty clear though, I don't think the offensive line has been good for quite awhile. That may be the mainstay, but I've already said as much multiple times. 1 Quote Link to comment
whateveritis1224 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Banged up inexperienced WR corps. Terrible offensive line play. Offensive system which QB and WR are making all kinds of reads. Offensive coordinator who doesn't know what a TE is. Still expect QB to complete 65%. Yea, that makes sense. Banged up inexperienced WR corps. Terrible offensive line play. Offensive system which QB and WR are making all kinds of reads. Offensive coordinator who doesn't know what a TE is. Still expect QB to complete 65%. Yea, that makes sense. I assume you had to raise the bar to 65% so you could argue against a straw man because the only number that's been mentioned is 60% which we did have a QB do on multiple occasions. You can assume what you want to assume without being a dick about it. I'll change it to 60%, I don't give a sh#t. The same things affect a QB and his completion percentage regardless of the number or whatever straw man bullcrap you think I'm coming up with.Which QB was that? Taylor? He left, remember? Those things I pointed out all applied to Tommy Armstrong last season, nobody even referenced Taylor Martinez 2-3 years ago. Or we're you bringing up Taylor so you could argue against some straw man when nobody even brought him up in the first place? See, I too can be an a-hole and throw your own logic back in your face. Fact is, Tommy struggled, there were many reasons including himself. I've said as much multiple times. I've repeatedly said Tommy has regressed. BUT, if he's going to be our QB in the future, AND be a successful one, those things I listed will have to improve. They will have to improve regardless of who the QB is. Which of your points did not apply to our offense under Martinez? Or where did you specify that? 2012 is the only season Martinez competed for a full season and completed 60+%. 62% on 368 attempts. He had a healthy Kenny Bell, Enunwa and Turner who had 50, 42, and 32 receptions respectively. BUT TE's Ben Cotton and Kyler Reed had 18 and 24 receptions, combing for 42 total receptions. Jake Long added 6 more. That's 48 total receptions that year from TE's. More combined than Enunwa and 2 less than KB. In 2014 Tommy Armstrong completed 53% on 345 attempts. Kenny Bell and Jordan Westerkamp were the only returning experienced starters who contributed large numbers with 47 and 44 receptions respectively. Kenny Bell was banged up (see above: BANGED UP) much of his senior year. Gutted it out due to lack of options. His third contributor at WR was true freshman Pierson El ( a great option, but inexperienced: see above where I said inexperience) Pierson El had 23 receptions. Here's the fun part about that whole TE thing (my straw man is building facts...huh). TE Cethan Carter and Sam Cotton had 6 and 3 receptions. 9'totql combined catches for the TE's. (see above: TE non-existent in offense) I'm gonna look more because I know for a fact our offensive line that year under Taylor was far more experienced than the group we fielded last year. Not sure where you can find the number of snaps each guy played on those offensive lines, but Qvale, Sirles, Pelini, Spencer Long, Choi and Rodriguez were up there for Martinez in 2012. I think I've made it pretty clear though, I don't think the offensive line has been good for quite awhile. That may be the mainstay, but I've already said as much multiple times. That was Justin Jackson's year at center, he was baller and a great puller. Quote Link to comment
Landlord Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I think it's a little problematic to compare reception numbers to somehow knock a quarterback that threw the ball better and defend a quarterback that threw the ball worse - a big part of Kenny/Quincy/Jamal/Kyler/Ben having better numbers was the quarterback throwing it to them better. Quote Link to comment
True2tRA Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I think it's a little problematic to compare reception numbers to somehow knock a quarterback that threw the ball better and defend a quarterback that threw the ball worse - a big part of Kenny/Quincy/Jamal/Kyler/Ben having better numbers was the quarterback throwing it to them better. You can hardly qualify of quantify that little tidbit as much as anything else. You gonna tell me you're going to go back through and let me know statistically which QB delivered more catchable balls? Good luck, with that. I went ahead and used the only sure numbers that were given, the stats. They can't be altered or erased. I'm not a numbers guy by any means, but when someone wants to debate with me that the TE was non-existent in the passing game last year compared to years prior, well as needless as I thought it was to have to go to the numbers, I went ahead and did it. So what, did Tommy throw about 39 more balls to the TE's last year but they were just "in- catchable"? I'll answer for you, No.....he didn't. We didn't use the TE in the receiving game and Beck made it clear he didn't even think the TE mattered in today's football. I was sure when I saw your name in the users list though, that you'd have something to say to defend Mavric's point and try to debunk mine. That was obvious. Thanks for not surprising me. I was as sure of that as I am sure that Mavric won't take what I've just said and admit that I've statistically and factually proven him wrong. Quote Link to comment
Mavric Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 Yes, you can quibble and cherry pick to find stats that fit your narrative. You win. 1 Quote Link to comment
Landlord Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I think it's a little problematic to compare reception numbers to somehow knock a quarterback that threw the ball better and defend a quarterback that threw the ball worse - a big part of Kenny/Quincy/Jamal/Kyler/Ben having better numbers was the quarterback throwing it to them better.You can hardly qualify of quantify that little tidbit as much as anything else. You gonna tell me you're going to go back through and let me know statistically which QB delivered more catchable balls? Good luck, with that. I went ahead and used the only sure numbers that were given, the stats. They can't be altered or erased. I'm not a numbers guy by any means, but when someone wants to debate with me that the TE was non-existent in the passing game last year compared to years prior, well as needless as I thought it was to have to go to the numbers, I went ahead and did it. So what, did Tommy throw about 39 more balls to the TE's last year but they were just "in- catchable"? I'll answer for you, No.....he didn't. We didn't use the TE in the receiving game and Beck made it clear he didn't even think the TE mattered in today's football. I was sure when I saw your name in the users list though, that you'd have something to say to defend Mavric's point and try to debunk mine. That was obvious. Thanks for not surprising me. I was as sure of that as I am sure that Mavric won't take what I've just said and admit that I've statistically and factually proven him wrong. Whoa man. I'm not trying to prove anything or 'debunk you' - only saying that the way you are arguing the numbers is a bit of a stretch in my eyes. No, I don't think Tommy threw 39 uncatchable balls to tight ends. No, I don't know which quarterback threw a more catchable ball - I don't even know what that phrase really means. I think several factors play into stuff like these, way too many for me to be able to postulate anything with any high level of certainty. I pretty much agree with your conclusions but I do chuckle at the amount of backpedaling you've done over the last 12 months in your praises/assessment of Tommy but at least you own up to it I suppose. 1 Quote Link to comment
True2tRA Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Yes, you can quibble and cherry pick to find stats that fit your narrative. You win. Or the Narrative is a direct result of the stats and the things I've witnessed with this football team over the last few years, but whatever man. I do win, and that's all that truly matters. Quote Link to comment
It'sNotAFakeID Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I'll be very surprised if Armstrong doesn't start this season. However, maybe something the other QBs needed was just a different system or coaching style (or any coaching at all) to facilitate their performance. 2 Quote Link to comment
True2tRA Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I'll be very surprised if Armstrong doesn't start this season. However, maybe something the other QBs needed was just a different system or coaching style (or any coaching at all) to facilitate their performance. Maybe even Tommy needs this as well, no? Quote Link to comment
True2tRA Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 We can agree to disagree about Tommy LOMS and Mavric. We always have, right from the get go. I still say the dress is white and gold. You guys probably see blue and black. Quote Link to comment
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