Can the Religious Right be Saved - Evengelicals and the compromise of Politics

[TGHusker]

This is a good video regarding the duplicity of the religious right and their contorted efforts to defend the indefensible policy, actions, and personalities that are often opposed to their stated core values and beliefs. This is the problem of 'plantation politics' in which a party has a strangle hold on certain groups due to one or two important issues. For the religious right it is abortion and the supreme court issues. Yet being prolife evangelicals make strange bedfellows with war mongers or other ethically unsavory candidates. The religious left often have the same issues but that is for another day. I think that one problem wt the old 'Moral Majority" was that it lost sight that God's kingdom was something different than the political kingdoms of this world. Yes, work for peaceful and lawful govt that respected the rights of all including all religions but Christians are called to be Christians even in the worse of places under communism or under radical dominated middle east countries.

 

So for me, even if Hillary is elected, and you all know my thoughts about her, I can live with it and I'll pray for her. The same wt Trump and you know what I think of him. My hope isn't in them. My kingdom alliance is to a different kingdom that transcends the politics of this temporary life. Russell Moore has some good things to say about the younger generation in regards to these issues.

 

 

 

Russell Moore is the 8th president of Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, the moral and public policy agency of the nation’s largest Protestant denomination. Russell has been writing some amazing pieces during this election cycle and he gave the lecture below earlier this week. It is entitled "Can the Religious Right Be Saved?". It is very thought provoking prophetic speech and does not hold any punches - great biblical perspective hashed out in our current context.

 

Lecture starts around the 15:30 time mark of the video.

The actual message by more is about a hour long.

 

http://www.russellmoore.com/2016/10/25/can-religious-right-saved/

[Landlord]

Russell Moore is one of the very few evangelical leaders left that I have found to be a breath of fresh air engaging in this political cycle.

 

 

The rise of Donald Trump was the final straw in my rejection of the term 'evangelical'. It was fun while it lasted, but that's no longer a term I feel comfortable claiming allegiance to.

[BigRedBuster]

I haven't watched or listened to your link.

 

But, from what you posted, here is where my view has changed. I used to be the died in the wool Republican that thought that they were the party that represented all that was good in the world and I did my darndest to defend everything they did and everyone they elected.

 

Finally, it got to the point where I absolutely couldn't do it any more. I found myself defending the indefensible. I found myself defending these people who then in turn would do things I found disgusting and completely wrong. I was doing it all for the wrong reasons. I thought these few issues were so important that I should just over look all the other crap.

 

I decided enough is enough. I still am a Christian but, I have realized my government doesn't represent me for my religious beliefs nor should it. It is there to give me the freedom to believe how I believe.....not to promote or punish others due to my religious beliefs.

 

As just one example.......I am still pro life. But, I'm tired of being played like a fiddle by politicians who really have absolutely no desire to actually reduce the need for women to feel they need an abortion. That work needs to be done in our homes, churches, schools and society as a whole.

 

This is just one example. Many of my political beliefs have morphed into this type of thought process.

 

Another.....My neighbor is a minister and has a very nice family with three daughters. The oldest is a senior this year. I saw one of her senior pictures that she posted on line. It's her draped with an American flag with about 3 or 4 guns. The comment was something about something with our election. I sat there and couldn't believe what I was seeing. Somehow, this minister thinks that guns are some how tied to his Christianity and in turn, that love of owning guns in the name of God is fed through the government.

 

These are the types of issues where the Religious Right have gone WAY off track to the point that, even though I'm a Christian and a gun owner, I have no desire to be some how associated with this group of people.

 

This is where the Religious Right need to reevaluate their values and what really is important in the name of their religion and how that religion says they should be leading their lives.

[TGHusker]

Russell Moore is one of the very few evangelical leaders left that I have found to be a breath of fresh air engaging in this political cycle.

 

 

The rise of Donald Trump was the final straw in my rejection of the term 'evangelical'. It was fun while it lasted, but that's no longer a term I feel comfortable claiming allegiance to.

Yes, I know what you mean. It is a term that got bastardized by charlatans from both spheres of politics and religion - both using each other for their own ends and thus loosing credibility in the long run.

 

My son (age 29) & I were talking over lunch today. He said he wont vote for Hillary and won't vote for Trump. But even as dislikeable Hillary is to him, and her views on some of the religiously important issues, if he had a gun to his head and had to vote for one of them, he'd vote for Hillary just because Trump is such a morally repugnant candidate - even though he gives lip service to the evangelical side. He said at least Hillary will be somewhat status quo and won't tick off foreign leaders and has a base of experience. We both then got talking about the concept I mentioned above. As Christians we are to be light in the world regardless if the world is too our liking or not. If it hates us or not. Our mission is to love, help/serve our fellow man as Christ would regardless. It is not to create a Christianized American (Christians in American have the same right as anyone else to partake in the public square but they (and others) need to always remember it is still a 'public' square). As the video mentions, younger evangelicals are more open to issues that are harder for us older evangelicals to embrace - global warming, environmentalism, larger govt spending for social programs, etc. These were always side issues for us older people. One can be an evangelical and also a 'liberal' politically on many issues. They shouldn't be 2 disqualifying terms. As Moore states, one can be a citizen of the kingdom of heaven and have different ways of fixing things on this earth - a liberal way or a conservative way. I think most of us get into arguments over the process and needlessly attack the good nature of the other person - they just have a different path to fixing the same problem you want to fix. I know I have to watch it - not be so dogmatic and listen more. That is why this forum is good for me. For example: You, Dude, Zoogs are more liberal than I, Knapp is more moderate than I - I need your voices to keep me or bring me into balance. It is good to hear other perspectives. (And yes, Knapp, if you read this, I still post too many conservative articles. But I do read many of the more liberal ones you or the other guys post. I'm conservative so I lean that way. I guess I just reinforce my belief system which isn't always the best way of getting balanced. I limit my time on the web so I go to what I think is good and know you guys will post other stuff I can look at and consider. yea, I know too lazy or stressed for time to take the time to dig deeper. Maybe we should do a week of conservatives finding good stuff on liberal sites and liberals posting good stuff they find on conservative sites. )

[TGHusker]

I haven't watched or listened to your link.

 

But, from what you posted, here is where my view has changed. I used to be the died in the wool Republican that thought that they were the party that represented all that was good in the world and I did my darndest to defend everything they did and everyone they elected.

 

Finally, it got to the point where I absolutely couldn't do it any more. I found myself defending the indefensible. I found myself defending these people who then in turn would do things I found disgusting and completely wrong. I was doing it all for the wrong reasons. I thought these few issues were so important that I should just over look all the other crap.

 

I decided enough is enough. I still am a Christian but, I have realized my government doesn't represent me for my religious beliefs nor should it. It is there to give me the freedom to believe how I believe.....not to promote or punish others due to my religious beliefs.

 

As just one example.......I am still pro life. But, I'm tired of being played like a fiddle by politicians who really have absolutely no desire to actually reduce the need for women to feel they need an abortion. That work needs to be done in our homes, churches, schools and society as a whole.

 

This is just one example. Many of my political beliefs have morphed into this type of thought process.

 

Another.....My neighbor is a minister and has a very nice family with three daughters. The oldest is a senior this year. I saw one of her senior pictures that she posted on line. It's her draped with an American flag with about 3 or 4 guns. The comment was something about something with our election. I sat there and couldn't believe what I was seeing. Somehow, this minister thinks that guns are some how tied to his Christianity and in turn, that love of owning guns in the name of God is fed through the government.

 

These are the types of issues where the Religious Right have gone WAY off track to the point that, even though I'm a Christian and a gun owner, I have no desire to be some how associated with this group of people.

 

This is where the Religious Right need to reevaluate their values and what really is important in the name of their religion and how that religion says they should be leading their lives.

Very good. Yes it is that 'plantation' mentality that so many feel forced to live wt within the 2 party system. The thing about your neighbor's daughter is exactly what Moore is talking about.

[BigRedBuster]

The more I look at this, the more I'm uncomfortable with even the term "Religious Right". It implies that if you are religious, somehow you should be associated with a political "side".

 

That's just simply not how I believe being a Christian is. My Christianity is not tied to a political side.

[knapplc]

The more I look at this, the more I'm uncomfortable with even the term "Religious Right". It implies that if you are religious, somehow you should be associated with a political "side".

 

That's just simply not how I believe being a Christian is. My Christianity is not tied to a political side.

Well said. They've hijacked Christianity in much the same way as radicals have hijacked Islam. It is not right.

[TGHusker]

The more I look at this, the more I'm uncomfortable with even the term "Religious Right". It implies that if you are religious, somehow you should be associated with a political "side".

 

That's just simply not how I believe being a Christian is. My Christianity is not tied to a political side.

Agree. The faith spans the spectrum of political thought. Unfortunately, the political right used the issue of abortion back in the late 1970s and the Christian view of life at conception as a hook to drag us to the plantation. Thus political right merged with Bible believing Christianity and we end up wt the religious right. At the same time, we have also the religious folks that tie themselves to the left on social justice issues. Politics should not define the faith or separate people of faith as it has in the USA.

[zoogs]

This is a great thread. A lot of smart, well-spoken folks here. I have nothing to add for now other than that

[84HuskerLaw]

Most 'values' espoused by the American political left (those who vote Democrat in the last several elections and presumably will be voting for Clinton this time) are directly contrary to the basic values and tenets of the Bible and Christianity in particular. Catholics voting Democrat is blatant hypocracy and nonsensical.

 

While not all Republicans are pro-life and not all Democrats are pro-abortion, most are and this is one of the most obvious examples of the above truism. The Republican Party and Tea Party and the Conservatives in general are opposed to abortion as being morally repugnant and for most anti abortion folks, abortion amounts to murder. Clearly immoral.

 

Most of the basic values supported by the 'religious right' are in alignment with the platform espoused by the Republican Party. Not every candidate for said party supports every aspect of the said platform but support aligns with most of it. Trump is more like a Republican thabn a Democrat but he certainly is far from a conservative and far from a religious conservative and would not be in any way considered a member of the 'religious right'. He would land more in the political middle on most of those basic notions although he does fall on the right on more things than he would be 'left'.

[BigRedBuster]

Most 'values' espoused by the American political left (those who vote Democrat in the last several elections and presumably will be voting for Clinton this time) are directly contrary to the basic values and tenets of the Bible and Christianity in particular. Catholics voting Democrat is blatant hypocracy and nonsensical.

 

While not all Republicans are pro-life and not all Democrats are pro-abortion, most are and this is one of the most obvious examples of the above truism. The Republican Party and Tea Party and the Conservatives in general are opposed to abortion as being morally repugnant and for most anti abortion folks, abortion amounts to murder. Clearly immoral.

Most of the basic values supported by the 'religious right' are in alignment with the platform espoused by the Republican Party. Not every candidate for said party supports every aspect of the said platform but support aligns with most of it. Trump is more like a Republican thabn a Democrat but he certainly is far from a conservative and far from a religious conservative and would not be in any way considered a member of the 'religious right'. He would land more in the political middle on most of those basic notions although he does fall on the right on more things than he would be 'left'.

 

Thanks for proving my point.

[TGHusker]

First article below is from Russell Moore (guy in OP) view that both candidates are not acceptable

 

http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/evangelicals-Donald-Trump-Hillary-Clinton-election/2016/10/11/id/752882/

 

 

Here Wayne Grudem, my favorite theologian, voices his conviction that Trump isn't acceptable.

 

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/wayne-grudem-urge-trump-withdraw/2016/10/10/id/752637/

[TGHusker]

This is a great thread. A lot of smart, well-spoken folks here. I have nothing to add for now other than that

Zoogs - you are pretty smart - just jump in.

[TGHusker]

This is a great thread. A lot of smart, well-spoken folks here. I have nothing to add for now other than that

Hey if anything it increases you posting total on your way to 22,000 or you can just use this :

[Fru]

 

Russell Moore is one of the very few evangelical leaders left that I have found to be a breath of fresh air engaging in this political cycle.

 

 

The rise of Donald Trump was the final straw in my rejection of the term 'evangelical'. It was fun while it lasted, but that's no longer a term I feel comfortable claiming allegiance to.

Yes, I know what you mean. It is a term that got bastardized by charlatans from both spheres of politics and religion - both using each other for their own ends and thus loosing credibility in the long run.

 

My son (age 29) & I were talking over lunch today. He said he wont vote for Hillary and won't vote for Trump. But even as dislikeable Hillary is to him, and her views on some of the religiously important issues, if he had a gun to his head and had to vote for one of them, he'd vote for Hillary just because Trump is such a morally repugnant candidate - even though he gives lip service to the evangelical side. He said at least Hillary will be somewhat status quo and won't tick off foreign leaders and has a base of experience. We both then got talking about the concept I mentioned above. As Christians we are to be light in the world regardless if the world is too our liking or not. If it hates us or not. Our mission is to love, help/serve our fellow man as Christ would regardless. It is not to create a Christianized American (Christians in American have the same right as anyone else to partake in the public square but they (and others) need to always remember it is still a 'public' square). As the video mentions, younger evangelicals are more open to issues that are harder for us older evangelicals to embrace - global warming, environmentalism, larger govt spending for social programs, etc. These were always side issues for us older people. One can be an evangelical and also a 'liberal' politically on many issues. They shouldn't be 2 disqualifying terms. As Moore states, one can be a citizen of the kingdom of heaven and have different ways of fixing things on this earth - a liberal way or a conservative way. I think most of us get into arguments over the process and needlessly attack the good nature of the other person - they just have a different path to fixing the same problem you want to fix. I know I have to watch it - not be so dogmatic and listen more. That is why this forum is good for me. For example: You, Dude, Zoogs are more liberal than I, Knapp is more moderate than I - I need your voices to keep me or bring me into balance. It is good to hear other perspectives. (And yes, Knapp, if you read this, I still post too many conservative articles. But I do read many of the more liberal ones you or the other guys post. I'm conservative so I lean that way. I guess I just reinforce my belief system which isn't always the best way of getting balanced. I limit my time on the web so I go to what I think is good and know you guys will post other stuff I can look at and consider. yea, I know too lazy or stressed for time to take the time to dig deeper. Maybe we should do a week of conservatives finding good stuff on liberal sites and liberals posting good stuff they find on conservative sites. )

 

So you call yourself a Christian, but it's difficult for you to embrace the idea of protecting the Earth that God created and taking care of the needy?

 

Why not take care of God's creation?

 

“The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and keep it.” Genesis 2:15

 

Or the needy?

 

"'Cursed is the man who withholds justice from the alien, the fatherless or the widow.' Then all the people shall say, Amen!'" Deuteronomy 27:19

 

"He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing." Deuteronomy 10:18

 

"because I rescued the poor who cried for help, and the fatherless who had none to assist him." Job 29:12

 

How is that difficult for you to embrace?