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Breakout: Ron Brown and religion


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7 minutes ago, lo country said:

Here's an analogy.  In all of the negative press on Chic-Fil-A regarding the founders views, have they ever been sued for discrimination?  Had any scandals related to the operation of the restaurants? Denied service? Denied employment? Or have they been slammed for simply having a Christian view vs a world view......Same with RB.  Has he had any complaints, allegations etc....

 

As I said earlier, being intolerant of all views other than your own isn't tolerant.  It's oppression of free speech....People can't expect to have their voice heard while not allowing others to voice differing opinions.  If you want your position listened to, listen to the other as well.  Defend that speech as vehemently as you defended your own opinions..... 

 

Again, other than expressing his Christian views, I haven't seen anything derogatory as it relates to his treatment of those with differing views.  

 

 

 

Here's another analogy.

 

Ron Brown, gay man, speaks in a strident voice to the largest municipality in Nebraska, asking them to deny protection from discrimination to Christians while giving his home address as Nebraska Football's home field.

 

Six years later, gay man Ron Brown is rehired by Nebraska Athletics.

 

Anyone pretending that person is welcomed back with open arms today is lying to themselves.

 

So what's different? That Ron Brown is Christian?  That instead of advocating allowing discrimination against Christians, he advocated allowing discrimination against LGBTQs?

 

The people concerned about this hire have two points:

 

1) Discrimination against anyone based on (among other things) religion or sexual orientation is wrong.

 

2) If the situations were reversed, the same people concerned with this hire would be raising the exact same concerns. But the same people supporting the hire wouldn't.

 

That's the problem.

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In honesty, some of the anti-gay rhetoric from conservative Christians essentially locks the gays in the burning building, then shakes its head sadly at the fate they chose.

Don't like the idea that the University would hire someone proactively against civil rights, but you have to work with people who have different opinions sometimes. Just the way things are. Hopefully

You have spectacularly missed the point. 

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43 minutes ago, lo country said:

As I said earlier, being intolerant of all views other than your own isn't tolerant.  It's oppression of free speech....People can't expect to have their voice heard while not allowing others to voice differing opinions.  If you want your position listened to, listen to the other as well.  Defend that speech as vehemently as you defended your own opinions..... 

 

Again, other than expressing his Christian views, I haven't seen anything derogatory as it relates to his treatment of those with differing views.  

 

 

 

 

No one is saying he can't say whatever the heck he wants to. He was allowed to do that and did.

 

He fought for the right of businesses to mistreat gay people. It may not have been done by his hand if his side had won, but he wanted gays to be able to be fired for being gay. I would argue this is worse than if he were to personally mistreat a gay person, because if he had gotten his way it would have impacted far more gay people. I feel like people are really bad at empathizing here. These are people's livelihoods that were at stake. People who were harming Brown in no way whatsoever. Just imagine, like knapp said, if it was Christians instead of gay people and Brown had fought for the right of businesses to fire Christians for being Christian.

 

I get so tired of the argument that people who are against intolerance are being intolerant by speaking against intolerance. It's devoid of logic.

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1 hour ago, knapplc said:

 

Here's another analogy.

 

Ron Brown, gay man, speaks in a strident voice to the largest municipality in Nebraska, asking them to deny protection from discrimination to Christians while giving his home address as Nebraska Football's home field.

 

Six years later, gay man Ron Brown is rehired by Nebraska Athletics.

 

Anyone pretending that person is welcomed back with open arms today is lying to themselves.

 

So what's different? That Ron Brown is Christian?  That instead of advocating allowing discrimination against Christians, he advocated allowing discrimination against LGBTQs?

 

The people concerned about this hire have two points:

 

1) Discrimination against anyone based on (among other things) religion or sexual orientation is wrong.

 

2) If the situations were reversed, the same people concerned with this hire would be raising the exact same concerns. But the same people supporting the hire wouldn't.

 

That's the problem.

Again, this is not a sports related debate but all the Ron Brown bashers are advocating discrimination against Christians is good because apparently NU ought not hire a Christian.   Discrimination against a protected class is not a good thing but it is one's right to like or dislike anybody for any reason.   However, the University may not choose to discriminate against Ron Brown's religion and his free exercise thereof without consequences.   Ron Brown has the exact same responsibility.   Those who seem to hate Christians need to get a life and do unto others as they would have done to them.   

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1 hour ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

Of course they would.

 

People defend Muslims from persecution because they are a persecuted group in America. The same can't be said for Christians. They should be defended when they are persecuted but it's not the norm. With Muslims, it is.

 

But homophobia and genital mutilation is the same whether it's Christians or Muslims. What Brown did wasn't merely homophobia though, imo. 

 

 

I don't really get your take on this topic. Most people are saying they're fine with the hire, but some of those think what he did was wrong. You seem to not be anti-gay but think people shouldn't care about it because it happened in 2012. But why should it not matter because it happened 6 years ago? He apparently holds the same attitude now, so it's not relevant whether it was 6 years ago or 6 days ago. If someone thinks it was wrong then, and nothing has changed, it's just as big a deal now as it was then.

 

There is no indication he doesn't still feel the same way, so it's still relevant today to people who think it matters.

 

Maybe we disagree a bit. I actually think there would be a certain rather vocal subset of people whose take on this would be different if the only difference were that RB was Muslim. Maybe not you, maybe not some others but surely there would be some. I don't think it is relevant at all if one group is typically more persecuted than the other. IMO that should not affect a person's view on any specific situation. That was my only point on that subject.

 

And yes, I am not anti-gay, actually I am far from it. I just think many are making a much bigger deal out of his return than it deserves. Most of the more vocal objections I've seen are because A) He is publicly Christian and B) He has made it known that he feels it is sinful behavior. Whether you or I or others agree or disagree with his views I do believe he is entitled to his own opinion on the matter. However we can probably agree that he should keep his personal opinions about homosexuality far away from his employment. I just see people being more upset about his anti-gay beliefs rather than with how he gave his address as Memorial Stadium. Sure the address issue is what is trotted out in front as the real problem but the actual real problem for most seems to be what he believes and not how he should behave as a UNL and Nebraska football employee.  Maybe subtle differences but that is my take on it. And then of course there are those who never want to hear or know anything from a person who claims to be Christian. I don't happen to agree with RB's take on the Bible and that being gay is some kind of sin but it annoys me more when certain people just want him to shut up simply because he is Christian.

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1 hour ago, knapplc said:

 

Here's another analogy.

 

Ron Brown, gay man, speaks in a strident voice to the largest municipality in Nebraska, asking them to deny protection from discrimination to Christians while giving his home address as Nebraska Football's home field.

 

Six years later, gay man Ron Brown is rehired by Nebraska Athletics.

 

Anyone pretending that person is welcomed back with open arms today is lying to themselves.

 

So what's different? That Ron Brown is Christian?  That instead of advocating allowing discrimination against Christians, he advocated allowing discrimination against LGBTQs?

 

The people concerned about this hire have two points:

 

1) Discrimination against anyone based on (among other things) religion or sexual orientation is wrong.

 

2) If the situations were reversed, the same people concerned with this hire would be raising the exact same concerns. But the same people supporting the hire wouldn't.

 

That's the problem.

 

 

No. 

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I find it interesting that those who preach tolerance of everyone and acceptance of every person no matter what your views, are

often times the least tolerant and least accepting of those who don’t agree with them... 

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15 minutes ago, Comfortably Numb said:

 

Maybe we disagree a bit. I actually think there would be a certain rather vocal subset of people whose take on this would be different if the only difference were that RB was Muslim. Maybe not you, maybe not some others but surely there would be some. I don't think it is relevant at all if one group is typically more persecuted than the other. IMO that should not affect a person's view on any specific situation. That was my only point on that subject.

 

And yes, I am not anti-gay, actually I am far from it. I just think many are making a much bigger deal out of his return than it deserves. Most of the more vocal objections I've seen are because A) He is publicly Christian and B) He has made it known that he feels it is sinful behavior. Whether you or I or others agree or disagree with his views I do believe he is entitled to his own opinion on the matter. However we can probably agree that he should keep his personal opinions about homosexuality far away from his employment. I just see people being more upset about his anti-gay beliefs rather than with how he gave his address as Memorial Stadium. Sure the address issue is what is trotted out in front as the real problem but the actual real problem for most seems to be what he believes and not how he should behave as a UNL and Nebraska football employee.  Maybe subtle differences but that is my take on it. And then of course there are those who never want to hear or know anything from a person who claims to be Christian. I don't happen to agree with RB's take on the Bible and that being gay is some kind of sin but it annoys me more when certain people just want him to shut up simply because he is Christian.

 

 

 

I think you might've misunderstood what I meant with the Muslims being persecuted part. It's important to defend anyone who's being persecuted. What I meant is that people come to the defense of Muslims in general more often because they are more in need of it. Christians have much more power including in politics in this country. They are in the majority. We use the Bible to swear people in. It seems nearly impossible to get elected without telling the public how Christian you are. There isn't really a call to defend Christians in general because it's not really needed in the U.S. (again, I'm talking in generally. Anecdotally, I'm sure there are examples).

 

 

I really can't fathom where you're getting your A and B from, especially if you're talking about Huskerboard. Who is doing A and B?

 

Most people don't have a problem with his Christianity and I haven't seen anyone on HB who does. Even his view that homosexuality is a sin isn't the main problem. It's that he went out of his way to fight for it to remain legal for gays to be fired for being gay. That is a much different animal than simply thinking being gay is a sin and trying to help/save those people.

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1 minute ago, Moiraine said:

 

I really can't fathom where you're getting your A and B from, especially if you're talking about Huskerboard. Who is doing A and B?

 

Most people don't have a problem with his Christianity and I haven't seen anyone who does. Even his views that homosexuality is a sin isn't the main problem. 

I'm not going to name names but there have been some very direct comments to that effect and others that I strongly suspect that to be the motivating basis.

 

I guess maybe I'm just in one of those moods where the over analyzing and in depth parsing is getting to me. RB did a lot of good things when he was here before and I feel the possible benefits of his return far outweigh the negatives. That's really all the deeper I want to go on the matter. I should probably just stay away from the topic.

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25 minutes ago, ebohnart said:

I find it interesting that those who preach tolerance of everyone and acceptance of every person no matter what your views, are

often times the least tolerant and least accepting of those who don’t agree with them... 

 

 

Care to some examples of that happening in this topic?

 

None of the critiques have much to do with Brown's view that homosexuality is a sin.

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43 minutes ago, 84HuskerLaw said:

Again, this is not a sports related debate but all the Ron Brown bashers are advocating discrimination against Christians is good because apparently NU ought not hire a Christian.   Discrimination against a protected class is not a good thing but it is one's right to like or dislike anybody for any reason.   However, the University may not choose to discriminate against Ron Brown's religion and his free exercise thereof without consequences.   Ron Brown has the exact same responsibility.   Those who seem to hate Christians need to get a life and do unto others as they would have done to them.   

 

 

 

Who is arguing that the university should discriminate against Brown? Who seems to hate Christians?

 

No one who has posted in this topic thinks Brown shouldn't have been hired because he's Christian. Come on - Frost is Christian and presumably so are multiple other members of his staff. Anyone who thinks people posting in this topic have negative views of Brown simply because he's Christian are imagining things or possibly being defensive because they think what he did was good.

 

Most of the people who have a negative view of what he did are still saying they're okay or even happy with the hire.

 

People seem to not be processing the words here.

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22 minutes ago, Comfortably Numb said:

I'm not going to name names but there have been some very direct comments to that effect and others that I strongly suspect that to be the motivating basis.

 

I guess maybe I'm just in one of those moods where the over analyzing and in depth parsing is getting to me. RB did a lot of good things when he was here before and I feel the possible benefits of his return far outweigh the negatives. That's really all the deeper I want to go on the matter. I should probably just stay away from the topic.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

I try to discuss the things being said rather than guess or assume why the person is saying what they're saying. But part of that is I don't usually remember what someone believes from a past conversation.

 

I just have to add though, as I did in the other topic, Frost is Christian. I'm assuming others on his staff are too. So why would anyone think the problem with Brown is that he's Christian? No one has made a stink about the others. This line of thinking makes no sense to me.

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1 minute ago, Moiraine said:

 

 

Fair enough.

 

I try to discuss the things being said rather than guess or assume why the person is saying what they're saying. But part of that is I don't usually remember what someone believes from a past conversation.

 

I just have to add though, as I did in the other topic, Frost is Christian. I'm assuming others on his staff are too. So why would anyone think the problem with Brown is that he's Christian? No one has made a stink about the others. This line of thinking makes no sense to me.

 

I may not have explained it well enough. I dont think people have a problem with him because he is Christian but rather because he is a vocal Christian. A big part of Christianity for many people (not necessarily timid Catholics like me) is evangelism. Simply hearing about God, Jesus, religion and beliefs seems to really bother some people. And often they equate it with the legitimate fundamentalist whack jobs and presuppose them to be all the same. I just get tired of hearing their complaints in that regard. 

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1 hour ago, Comfortably Numb said:

I just think many are making a much bigger deal out of his return than it deserves. 

 

41 minutes ago, Comfortably Numb said:

I guess maybe I'm just in one of those moods where the over analyzing and in depth parsing is getting to me. 

 

 

It's just a dozen or so people on a messageboard shooting the s#!t and diving into minutia because that's just what people on messageboards do. Not a big deal, and also likely not even indicative of the main points of emphasis or thoughts of any of us. Just something to talk about.

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7 minutes ago, Landlord said:

 

 

 

It's just a dozen or so people on a messageboard shooting the s#!t and diving into minutia because that's just what people on messageboards do. Not a big deal, and also likely not even indicative of the main points of emphasis or thoughts of any of us. Just something to talk about.

 

Oh I agree. I won't begrudge anyone the platform to talk about it all they want. I'm just not in the mood for it. Like I said, I should probably just stay out of it. Unfortunately there isn't a lot else Husker related going on right now and I was sort of bored so I dipped my toe in the pool. Probably a mistake.

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21 hours ago, NM11046 said:

Ron could put all this debate to rest by using his role immediately to do outreach to LBGTQ players and to everyone else on the team to establish a dialogue about respect, equal treatment regardless of sexual oreintation etc.  If he doesn't (imo) we have his statement, and I don't agree with it.  The best thing a coach to young men can be is an example, one during the good times when they make the right decisions as well as when they make a mistake and show maturity and openness to acknowledge it and correct it.

 

I'd imagine Ron doesn't even know this debate is happening or in unrest. Probably has no exposure to it whatsoever and hasn't had any thought of it being an issue or something people are talking about.

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, lo country said:

It's oppression of free speech....People can't expect to have their voice heard while not allowing others to voice differing opinions.

 

I completely 100% (as a Christian, even) allow for Ron Brown to voice his differing opinion as a private citizen, and then to say that I think it's wrong. That's what I'm doing. That's what everyone is doing.

 

2 hours ago, lo country said:

If you want your position listened to, listen to the other as well.

 

Is that not what we are also all doing right now?

 

2 hours ago, lo country said:

Again, other than expressing his Christian views, I haven't seen anything derogatory as it relates to his treatment of those with differing views.  

 

You mean, other than expressing his Christian views, and also pleading to the government in opposition of actual laws put in place to protect those with differing views from discrimination. Right?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, 84HuskerLaw said:

all the Ron Brown bashers are advocating discrimination against Christians is good because apparently NU ought not hire a Christian. 

 

As usual, you are wrong.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, ebohnart said:

I find it interesting that those who preach tolerance of everyone and acceptance of every person no matter what your views, are

often times the least tolerant and least accepting of those who don’t agree with them... 

 

I mean I don't know about anyone else, but I'm personally not trying to fight for legislation that harms Ron Brown legally, or fight against legislation that would protect Ron Brown's freedoms and equality. Ron Brown did that. I'm not doing that.

 

Your view of tolerance is confusing. I'm not trying to hurt anyone I disagree with - I'm glad to grab a beer and have a conversation with 99% of them, and I'm for them as people. That doesn't mean I can't think they act inappropriately, or can't think that they're idiots, or that they're misguided, or that their worldview causes other people suffering and hurt. 

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