Who is your current favorite 2020 presidential candidate? Why? (Spring 2019 edition)

[Fru]

Warren - Student loans. 

[Danny Bateman]

That student loan policy is incredibly attractive, especially watching the policies of this administration. I can't remember the last time someone seriously proposed we do something to ease the financial burden of paying for education.

 

Warren would be a good case study in whether those Trump voters in swing states really voted for him because they wanted a populist who would pursue policies that would actually help them, or whether it was for other reasons. Warren is the actual populist brimming with ideas about how the help actual people. She's what Trump pretended to be, minus the culture wars.

[sho]

I'm all for Yang.   Also liking a lot of what I'm hearing from Warren.  Just hope the Native American issue doesn't impact her negatively with independents.  

[BigRedBuster]

On 4/29/2019 at 9:03 AM, QMany said:

 

She's good.

 

Meh.....

[RedDenver]

1 hour ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

Meh.....

What don't you agree with? That property is a form of wealth?

[BigRedBuster]

2 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

What don't you agree with? That property is a form of wealth?

Pretty much Meh...because I'm not a Warren fan.

 

But, since you asked.  You can tax something like a house because it's register and the value is determined in an official manner to determine taxes.

 

What???  Are you going to have everyone now register their diamonds and fine art?  The state or county is now going to have to figure out how to value those items to put a tax on them?

Point being, her comment was nothing more than to rile up her base.  In all practicality, taxing someone's diamonds or fine are is nothing more than bluster because the logistics of doing so is stupid.

[RedDenver]

2 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Pretty much Meh...because I'm not a Warren fan.

 

But, since you asked.  You can tax something like a house because it's register and the value is determined in an official manner to determine taxes.

 

What???  Are you going to have everyone now register their diamonds and fine art?  The state or county is now going to have to figure out how to value those items to put a tax on them?

Point being, her comment was nothing more than to rile up her base.  In all practicality, taxing someone's diamonds or fine are is nothing more than bluster because the logistics of doing so is stupid.

Doing the accounting is the strongest argument I've seen against a wealth tax. But consider that the state has a property assessor that determines the value of your property in order to levy taxes. That's also possible for diamonds and art, as it's already done all the time for sales or auctions. 

[BigRedBuster]

4 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Doing the accounting is the strongest argument I've seen against a wealth tax. But consider that the state has a property assessor that determines the value of your property in order to levy taxes. That's also possible for diamonds and art, as it's already done all the time for sales or auctions. 

 

So, everything we own is going to be registered and valued by the county or state???

What if my value is in Santa Clause figurines???  Is the assessor going to come out and value each and everyone of them?  If I have one is he going to come value it?  What number do I have to have for him to do so?

 

I know a guy who worked for a large municipal electric system.  Every day, he brought home scrap pieces of wire, compacted them and stored them in his shed.  When he retired decades later, he had a nice chunk of change in scrap copper.  Are the assessors going to go search for people's copper now to tax it?

 

My point is, when you start doing these types of things, they sound great in a sound bite like Warren is using it for....to excite her base.  But, the reality of it is ridiculous.

[funhusker]

7 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

Doing the accounting is the strongest argument I've seen against a wealth tax. But consider that the state has a property assessor that determines the value of your property in order to levy taxes. That's also possible for diamonds and art, as it's already done all the time for sales or auctions. 

I've never purchased a Rembrandt, but I did buy a diamond for my wife.  And I paid sales tax on it.

 

If I were to sell that diamond through an auction, I'm pretty sure I'd have to claim the income too, right?  (Could very well be incorrect here.)  

[RedDenver]

2 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

 

So, everything we own is going to be registered and valued by the county or state???

What if my value is in Santa Clause figurines???  Is the assessor going to come out and value each and everyone of them?  If I have one is he going to come value it?  What number do I have to have for him to do so?

 

I know a guy who worked for a large municipal electric system.  Every day, he brought home scrap pieces of wire, compacted them and stored them in his shed.  When he retired decades later, he had a nice chunk of change in scrap copper.  Are the assessors going to go search for people's copper now to tax it?

 

My point is, when you start doing these types of things, they sound great in a sound bite like Warren is using it for....to excite her base.  But, the reality of it is ridiculous.

They'd do it the same way that audits are done today. You wouldn't audit everyone, but instead audit enough that the risk of getting caught combined with the punishment is high enough that the majority of people wouldn't cheat on it.

 

And you don't have to register and value everything - it's proposed for wealth in excess of $50 million dollars - that's not going to be people saving stuff in their shed. Plus not a lot of people are going to be even in the range of $50 million in wealth, so the chances of getting caught are much higher.

 

But wealthy people have shown that they are good at hiring people to hide their wealth, so maybe it's not worth it in the end.

 

2 minutes ago, funhusker said:

I've never purchased a Rembrandt, but I did buy a diamond for my wife.  And I paid sales tax on it.

 

If I were to sell that diamond through an auction, I'm pretty sure I'd have to claim the income too, right?  (Could very well be incorrect here.)  

You only have to claim any gain in the value of the diamond as income. At least that's how it works for other things like real estate and stocks, but maybe diamonds have some different tax code.

 

But that's not what Warren is proposing, she's proposing taxing the accumulated wealth (not the income or sale which are transactional).

[BigRedBuster]

17 hours ago, RedDenver said:

They'd do it the same way that audits are done today. You wouldn't audit everyone, but instead audit enough that the risk of getting caught combined with the punishment is high enough that the majority of people wouldn't cheat on it.

 

And you don't have to register and value everything - it's proposed for wealth in excess of $50 million dollars - that's not going to be people saving stuff in their shed. Plus not a lot of people are going to be even in the range of $50 million in wealth, so the chances of getting caught are much higher.

 

But wealthy people have shown that they are good at hiring people to hide their wealth, so maybe it's not worth it in the end.

 

You only have to claim any gain in the value of the diamond as income. At least that's how it works for other things like real estate and stocks, but maybe diamonds have some different tax code.

 

But that's not what Warren is proposing, she's proposing taxing the accumulated wealth (not the income or sale which are transactional).

Again, logistic nightmare.

 

Many people don't just wake up and all of a sudden proclaim "I'm worth $50,000,000."  So, if I own a business that is worth $45,000,000 and unbeknownst to me, my various collections aren't worth $4,000,000, they are really worth $6,000,000....I'm now breaking the law because now I'm not paying X% to the government on this perceived wealth.

 

Also, there are many many things like this that nobody really knows what the real value of it is until it's sold.  So, if I own Babe Ruth's jersey and the government comes in and claims it's worth $3,000,000.....and so I end up paying that much in taxes and 6 months later, I put in on an auction and it only brings $500,000....do I get my taxes back?

 

This entire thing is nothing more than a sound bite that get people riled up that want to go get those rich people's money.  

[Danny Bateman]

19 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Again, logistic nightmare.

 

Many people don't just wake up and all of a sudden proclaim "I'm worth $50,000,000."  So, if I own a business that is worth $45,000,000 and unbeknownst to me, my various collections aren't worth $4,000,000, they are really worth $6,000,000....I'm now breaking the law because now I'm not paying X% to the government on this perceived wealth. 

 

Also, there are many many things like this that nobody really knows what the real value of it is until it's sold.  So, if I own Babe Ruth's jersey and the government comes in and claims it's worth $3,000,000.....and so I end up paying that much in taxes and 6 months later, I put in on an auction and it only brings $500,000....do I get my taxes back? 

 

This entire thing is nothing more than a sound bite that get people riled up that want to go get those rich people's money.   

 

But plenty of people do what you're describing and don't get punished for it. We're terrible at prosecuting white collar crime in this country. Some politicians make a being tough on crime but they're generally talking about the type of crimes poor and middle class people are likely to commit.

 

The very mention of utilizing a wealth tax to make life here more equitable is ridiculous just because it would be hard?

 

[BigRedBuster]

1 minute ago, Danny Bateman said:

 

But plenty of people do what you're describing and don't get punished for it. We're terrible at prosecuting white collar crime in this country. Some politicians make a being tough on crime but they're generally talking about the type of crimes poor and middle class people are likely to commit.

 

The very mention of utilizing a wealth tax to make life her more equitable is ridiculous just because it would be hard?

 

What I'm saying is that this idea sets people up to be breaking the law and not even knowing it. 

[Danny Bateman]

10 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

What I'm saying is that this idea sets people up to be breaking the law and not even knowing it. 

 

That's a good point. But as with any policy, any competent administration/Congress is going to iron out the wrinkles, work out the details and message to the public about how this policy changes things for them personally. I don't see how it will be any different than the changes we got with the tax bill.

 

It will be nice to return to the days of a competent administration...

[RedDenver]

7 hours ago, BigRedBuster said:

Again, logistic nightmare.

 

Many people don't just wake up and all of a sudden proclaim "I'm worth $50,000,000."  So, if I own a business that is worth $45,000,000 and unbeknownst to me, my various collections aren't worth $4,000,000, they are really worth $6,000,000....I'm now breaking the law because now I'm not paying X% to the government on this perceived wealth.

 

Also, there are many many things like this that nobody really knows what the real value of it is until it's sold.  So, if I own Babe Ruth's jersey and the government comes in and claims it's worth $3,000,000.....and so I end up paying that much in taxes and 6 months later, I put in on an auction and it only brings $500,000....do I get my taxes back?

 

This entire thing is nothing more than a sound bite that get people riled up that want to go get those rich people's money.  

I mean, if you own a business (or anything for that matter) worth $45 million, then you'd need to keep track of your net worth. There's lots of ways to craft the law to account for things like this.

 

For example, you could be required to register/appraise anything that's not easily valued and might be worth $1+ million (or $2+ million or $500+ thousand or pick a value) and then the wealth tax is much easier to assess by both the owner and the government. People don't just have multiple things around the house that could be worth $1+ million AND total more than $50+ million. Then if you had the thing appraised within the last 3 years (or pick time interval) such that you could have exceeded the $50+ million since then, you wouldn't be punished but just required to pay the appropriate taxes after the fact. But if you haven't had something appraised within the time interval and that caused you to go over the limit, then you'd be subject to fines/punishment in addition to paying the back taxes.

 

That's just one way to do it off the top of my head, but there's probably much better ways to enforce it in a reasonable way.