NBA 2023-24

[Guy Chamberlin]

3 hours ago, Mavric said:

 

 

 

It's not cynicism.  It's observation.

 

 

 

"the NBA is not basketball.  It's a business meant to resemble the game of basketball."

 

That's pretty darned cynical.  And it begs the question why you'd even bother with an NBA thread, where a bunch of posters seemed to be enjoying that game of basketball. I've been watching the game for 50 years. It's still basketball. Really good basketball actually. 

 

Do you like college basketball better? Why?

 

As for the traveling issue that started all this, it partly goes back to the high flying superstars who made the game so popular, but it probably has more to do with the influx of talented European players who played the game with an extra step -- the so-called Eurostep -- that U.S. players wanted to use as well. It was pretty messy for awhile, but they went to the trouble of rewriting the rule in 2019 to accommodate the Eurostep. It's also known as the "gather" rule, which lets you take a step as long as you are gatherig the ball. I'm not sure you can read the official NBA rules for traveling and think interpreting the "gather" rule in real time is easier or more relevant to the game than interpreting holding calls in football.

 

They've also changed the rules in the NFL and MLB many times over the years, hoping to make it more exciting for fans. 

 

New Language In NBA Rule Book Regarding Traveling Violations

October 1, 2019

See below for more information about new language in the NBA rule book that governs Traveling violations:

 

The NBA Board of Governors has approved new language in the NBA rule book that governs traveling violations. The revision will not change the substance of the rule but will help eliminate the gap between the rule as written and how it has been applied in NBA games.

The official NBA rule book will now have a section that formally defines the “gather.” The text of the rule will also be revised to provide additional clarity regarding how many steps a player may take after the gather occurs.

The changes to the rule book are below:

Definition of the Gather

The following definition of the gather will be added to the definitions section of the playing rules:

1. For a player who receives a pass or gains possession of a loose ball, the gather is defined as the point where the player gains enough control of the ball to hold it, change hands, pass, shoot, or cradle it against his body.
2. For a player who is in control of the ball while dribbling, the gather is defined as the point where a player does any one of the following:
   1. Puts two hands on the ball, or otherwise permits the ball to come to rest, while he is in control of it;
   2. Puts a hand under the ball and brings it to a pause; or
   3. Otherwise gains enough control of the ball to hold it, change hands, pass, shoot, or cradle it against his body.

 

Incorporating the Gather into the Traveling Rule

The gather will be expressly incorporated into the traveling rule to clarify how many steps a player may take after he receives the ball while progressing or completes his dribble:

• A player who gathers the ball while progressing may (a) take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball or (b) if he has not yet dribbled, one step prior to releasing the ball to start his dribble.

 

• A player who gathers the ball while dribbling may take two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.

 

• The first step occurs when a foot, or both feet, touch the floor after the player gathers the ball.

[Mavric]

So that's apparently a 'No' on the evidence.  Got it.

 

17 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

"the NBA is not basketball.  It's a business meant to resemble the game of basketball."

 

That's pretty darned cynical.  And it begs the question why you'd even bother with an NBA thread, where a bunch of posters seemed to be enjoying that game of basketball. I've been watching the game for 50 years. It's still basketball. Really good basketball actually. 

 

You take it as cynical because you disagree.  And that's fine.  But that doesn't make you right.

 

17 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

Do you like college basketball better? Why?

 

Mainly because I like to follow the Huskers.  

 

But also because, you know, they don't allow all the crap that started this discussion.

 

17 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

As for the traveling issue that started all this, it partly goes back to the high flying superstars who made the game so popular, but it probably has more to do with the influx of talented European players who played the game with an extra step -- the so-called Eurostep -- that U.S. players wanted to use as well. It was pretty messy for awhile, but they went to the trouble of rewriting the rule in 2019 to accommodate the Eurostep. It's also known as the "gather" rule, which lets you take a step as long as you are gatherig the ball. I'm not sure you can read the official NBA rules for traveling and think interpreting the "gather" rule in real time is easier or more relevant to the game than interpreting holding calls in football.

 

That's fine.  

 

But, again, that does nothing to argue against the fact that they let a lot of crap go that isn't "basketball".

 

17 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

They've also changed the rules in the NFL and MLB many times over the years, hoping to make it more exciting for fans. 

 

And which of those rules to they blatantly ignore all the time?

[Guy Chamberlin]

Tell you what, Mav. Give me a diversion you particularly enjoy, and I will carefully explain to you why you shouldn't like it. 

 

We could start a thread called Nebraska Football Is Not Football. It will contain observations just as valid and factual as your rant against the NBA.

 

Oh s#!t. I guess we already have plenty of those. 

[Lorewarn]

On 2/28/2024 at 10:52 PM, Mavric said:

But, again, that does nothing to argue against the fact that they let a lot of crap go that isn't "basketball".

 

 

What is "basketball"?

[Jason Sitoke]

On 2/28/2024 at 12:03 PM, Mavric said:

As I've said for years, the NBA is not basketball.  It's a business meant to resemble the game of basketball.  They want entertainment value and that's one way they get it.

I honestly don't know what this even means.  If the point is that the NBA is meant to be entertaining as a priority, I agree.  If the implication is that you're not seeing 'real' basketball and competition, then I''m not sure what you're watching.

 

I think there are purists for every sport, and most of those people believe today's game diverges from what the game is 'supposed to be'.  Baseball fans I think are the best example of this today.  A lot of older fans hate that there is now no real emphasis on baserunning or situational hitting.  It's all launch angles, exit velocities, and baserunners waiting around for the long ball.  Batting averages, OB%, stolen bases have been marginalized.  I miss those things, but I don't necessarily think that MLB is foresaking the pure game in favor of entertainment necessarily.  I think it's more a consequence of the athletes that make up the game and an understanding of the analytics behind these strategies.

 

@Mavric Can you clarify what you mean with examples and why they go against 'basketball'?

[Guy Chamberlin]

2 hours ago, Jason Sitoke said:

 

I think there are purists for every sport, and most of those people believe today's game diverges from what the game is 'supposed to be'.  Baseball fans I think are the best example of this today.  A lot of older fans hate that there is now no real emphasis on baserunning or situational hitting.  It's all launch angles, exit velocities, and baserunners waiting around for the long ball.  Batting averages, OB%, stolen bases have been marginalized.  I miss those things, but I don't necessarily think that MLB is foresaking the pure game in favor of entertainment necessarily.  I think it's more a consequence of the athletes that make up the game and an understanding of the analytics behind these strategies.

 

 

 

It's also cyclical. MLB tries new rules -- or blatantly juices the ball -- when they sense ratings and attendance is waning. Other things like launch angles and analytics-derived defensive shifts come from players and coaches looking for an edge. MLB went to the trouble of banning the infield shifts, which looked weird, but I don't recall fans feeling strongly about that either way. I think everyone but a handful of pitchers loves the new rule to speed up pitching. Someone pointed out that the new larger bases, which were designed for safety, would also shorten the base path by a few inches, and suddenly the stolen base average in MLB jumped by 40%. When more players start hitting .320 by ignoring launch angles for singles, that might reverse the trend, too. 

 

Watching MLB after the NBA season is over makes baseball seem really slow, but I like baseball, too. College and NFL football remain my favorites. Guess I'm just chock full of love and acceptance for team sports. That's how I roll. 

[admo]

  On 2/28/2024 at 1:03 PM, Mavric said:

As I've said for years, the NBA is not basketball.  It's a business meant to resemble the game of basketball.  They want entertainment value and that's one way they get it.

 

6 hours ago, Jason Sitoke said:

I honestly don't know what this even means. 

 

Yes you do.  You know exactly what he means.  But you don't want to take it at face value.  

 

My take is WYSIWYG... perhaps....however.....sometimes.....not exactly.

 

The concept went from a national basketball association to becoming basketball entertainment.  It's a United States product and something being produced. It affects the rules, the officiating, and this type of entertainment CREATES superstars that get away with so much bulls#!t on the court.......

There is a real reason why Euros get so confused playing in the NBA and during games.  In Europe you have basketball rules and you follow those rules.  It's called being professionals.

 

The NBA/Entertainment ..................it decides if there is a foul, who can get fouled or not, who can travel, carry the ball, palm the ball, set a pick, called for charging or a block, get the "and 1" touch foul, get called for a technical - but definitely not multiple technical fouls if the first one is in the first half....because NBA creates superstars and protects them.  

 

Jokic, Giannis, Doncic, and Curry.  Those are the only true superstars of the league.  Lebron used to be years ago. 

 

But the NBA and officials will keep putting Embiid and Durrant and Harden on the free throw line.  Keep helping them out, when they are struggling.  Because they are creating superstars out of just star players.  

[Jason Sitoke]

2 hours ago, admo said:

  On 2/28/2024 at 1:03 PM, Mavric said:

As I've said for years, the NBA is not basketball.  It's a business meant to resemble the game of basketball.  They want entertainment value and that's one way they get it.

 

 

Yes you do.  You know exactly what he means.  But you don't want to take it at face value.  

 

My take is WYSIWYG... perhaps....however.....sometimes.....not exactly.

 

The concept went from a national basketball association to becoming basketball entertainment.  It's a United States product and something being produced. It affects the rules, the officiating, and this type of entertainment CREATES superstars that get away with so much bulls#!t on the court.......

There is a real reason why Euros get so confused playing in the NBA and during games.  In Europe you have basketball rules and you follow those rules.  It's called being professionals.

 

The NBA/Entertainment ..................it decides if there is a foul, who can get fouled or not, who can travel, carry the ball, palm the ball, set a pick, called for charging or a block, get the "and 1" touch foul, get called for a technical - but definitely not multiple technical fouls if the first one is in the first half....because NBA creates superstars and protects them.  

 

Jokic, Giannis, Doncic, and Curry.  Those are the only true superstars of the league.  Lebron used to be years ago. 

 

But the NBA and officials will keep putting Embiid and Durrant and Harden on the free throw line.  Keep helping them out, when they are struggling.  Because they are creating superstars out of just star players.  

So you think the NBA wants to manufacture superstars by giving players that (according to you) are less than superstars preferential treatment. So the refs send them to the line over and over because free throws are…entertaining?

 

Or could it be that rules that favor the offense probably need to be tweaked because gifted offensive players have gotten so good at initiating contact and grifting calls?

 

I’m not going to argue that referees are impervious to being star struck during a game. But it’s not a directive given from up on high by Adam Silver.

 

Btw, Embiid is absolutely a superstar. As is Durant. As is SGA.  Kawhi is back in that realm as well. 

[Guy Chamberlin]

I would like to learn more about these sports that do not consider themselves entertainment, and the foreign countries where great players don't become superstars, and where no one can find enough bad ref calls to create funny videos. 

 

I mean, I want to go back to James Naismith and peach baskets as much as the next guy, but I think that horse has left the barn.  

[Jason Sitoke]

5 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

I would like to learn more about these sports that do not consider themselves entertainment, and the foreign countries where great players don't become superstars, and where no one can find enough bad ref calls to create funny videos. 

 

I mean, I want to go back to James Naismith and peach baskets as much as the next guy, but I think that horse has left the barn.  

This madness started when they first cut holes in the peach basket.  That was the first BS rule to increase scoring and ruined the game I love.

[Guy Chamberlin]

On 3/2/2024 at 3:07 PM, Jason Sitoke said:

This madness started when they first cut holes in the peach basket.  That was the first BS rule to increase scoring and ruined the game I love.

 

That happened on President Benjamin Harrison's watch. Thanks, Ben.

 

Although in fairness, America was pretty hopped up on the introduction of electricity and the modernization craze of the 1890s was really out-of-control. 

[admo]

On 3/1/2024 at 8:37 PM, Jason Sitoke said:

So you think the NBA wants to manufacture superstars by giving players that (according to you) are less than superstars preferential treatment. So the refs send them to the line over and over because free throws are…entertaining?

 

Or could it be that rules that favor the offense probably need to be tweaked because gifted offensive players have gotten so good at initiating contact and grifting calls?

 

I’m not going to argue that referees are impervious to being star struck during a game. But it’s not a directive given from up on high by Adam Silver.

 

Btw, Embiid is absolutely a superstar. As is Durant. As is SGA.  Kawhi is back in that realm as well. 

The NBA referees recieve their paychecks from the National Basketball Association (led by Adam Silver and formerly by David Stern for ever). They have a collective agreement.  The key words are "paid by the NBA" and "agreement".  

But by all means, keep talking about peach baskets and the invention of basketball back in the early 1900's as if that's the argument to have.  

I'm talking about the NBA and the officials having an agreement in place, and that they let standard basic NBA basketball rules slide-by for NBA players.  Including the stars.   And you are talking about players wearing Chuck Taylor's and the days before the the 3-point shot.  

You may call me a conspiracy theorist in the true form - "A person who believes that some secret but influential organization is responsible for an event or phenomenon".

That org is the NBA.  They are responsible for the refs, the star treatment, the entertainment, the fans, and making billions of money hand over fist. The official rules be damned.  This is a business product.

I mean, even Michael Jordan was smart enough to get on the good side of David Stern right away when he entered the NBA League and become his good friend his entire career.  He knew what time it was.  The NBA takes star NBA players and creates superstars.  That's a quote by David Stern in the mid-1980's.  

 

Businesses look the other way for profits.  That's how the NBA runs it league, and the officials are part of it. 

[Guy Chamberlin]

9 hours ago, admo said:

The NBA referees recieve their paychecks from the National Basketball Association (led by Adam Silver and formerly by David Stern for ever). They have a collective agreement.  The key words are "paid by the NBA" and "agreement".  

But by all means, keep talking about peach baskets and the invention of basketball back in the early 1900's as if that's the argument to have.  

I'm talking about the NBA and the officials having an agreement in place, and that they let standard basic NBA basketball rules slide-by for NBA players.  Including the stars.   And you are talking about players wearing Chuck Taylor's and the days before the the 3-point shot.  

You may call me a conspiracy theorist in the true form - "A person who believes that some secret but influential organization is responsible for an event or phenomenon".

That org is the NBA.  They are responsible for the refs, the star treatment, the entertainment, the fans, and making billions of money hand over fist. The official rules be damned.  This is a business product.

I mean, even Michael Jordan was smart enough to get on the good side of David Stern right away when he entered the NBA League and become his good friend his entire career.  He knew what time it was.  The NBA takes star NBA players and creates superstars.  That's a quote by David Stern in the mid-1980's.  

 

Businesses look the other way for profits.  That's how the NBA runs it league, and the officials are part of it. 

 

For me, it's that some folks have this same take for every single sport that involves a referee, including Nebraska fans convinced the conference is using the referees to punish the Huskers because they hate them. 

 

For a conspiracy theory to hold true you'd have to go deeper into statistical analysis than either of us probably wants to. Just going by the traveling video that started this, I'd point out that many of those players were not superstars, that some of those violations actually were called, and wonder aloud how many of those you'd find in the 200 possessions per game of every game played in the NBA. And it IS a funny video because the violations are so comically bad.

 

I think you find the stronger argument in foul calls, where people have long claimed superstar treatment. Even then, after you find Giannis and Luka among the top foul shooters, you'll see a lot of the supposed superstars down the list, and a lot of less flashy players above them. James Harden and Chris Paul became notorious for their kick outs - where they intentionally made contact with a defender to get the foul - and while it was technically legal everyone thought it cheapened the game, so the NBA changed the rule. It's not even questioned in Warrior-land that the NBA's biggest box office star Steph Curry doesn't get the foul calls other players get, and that actually is backed up by stats. I love watching LeBron James go ballistic when he doesn't get the call, but sometimes he's right, too. Last year the refs ignored a blatant foul on James in what could have been a game-winning play against the Celtics. You could almost make the case that some refs like to bait the biggest superstar in the game. 

 

My guess is that every sports league reminds every referee crew that fans pay to see the players, not the refs. That's solid advice whether you're a business or a fan. Even then, there's enough adherence to the rules that every game in every sport grinds to a halt as judgement calls are analyzed for all to see.

 

What's also good for business is when big market teams make the playoffs, and some fans are convinced the refs are in the league's pocket to make sure it happens. Which doesn't explain all the times it doesn't. I mean, what do the Knicks have to do, besides win a lot more games? 

 

What I like most about sports is that it's the only true Reality Show out there. The producers really can't control what will happen, and the results hinge on what individuals and teams pull off in any given moment. I can name 100 bad calls across my favorite team sports that will live in infamy, but it honestly doesn't occur to me to hate the League for letting it happen, much less to stop watching the games. Especially not in the NBA, which has the best commissioner of the bunch, a growing global following, and a huge influx of young talent playing the game at the highest level. 

[Jason Sitoke]

10 hours ago, admo said:

The NBA referees recieve their paychecks from the National Basketball Association (led by Adam Silver and formerly by David Stern for ever). They have a collective agreement.  The key words are "paid by the NBA" and "agreement".  

But by all means, keep talking about peach baskets and the invention of basketball back in the early 1900's as if that's the argument to have.  

I'm talking about the NBA and the officials having an agreement in place, and that they let standard basic NBA basketball rules slide-by for NBA players.  Including the stars.   And you are talking about players wearing Chuck Taylor's and the days before the the 3-point shot.  

You may call me a conspiracy theorist in the true form - "A person who believes that some secret but influential organization is responsible for an event or phenomenon".

That org is the NBA.  They are responsible for the refs, the star treatment, the entertainment, the fans, and making billions of money hand over fist. The official rules be damned.  This is a business product.

I mean, even Michael Jordan was smart enough to get on the good side of David Stern right away when he entered the NBA League and become his good friend his entire career.  He knew what time it was.  The NBA takes star NBA players and creates superstars.  That's a quote by David Stern in the mid-1980's.  

 

Businesses look the other way for profits.  That's how the NBA runs it league, and the officials are part of it. 

So your argument is that referees get paychecks from their employers, therefore game is compromised.  Don’t all leagues work this way?  Don’t college officials get paid by their conferences, and wouldn’t these conferences have the same financial motivation as any of the professional leagues?  So then, by your logic, aren’t all athletic organizations that are primarily revenue driven no longer sports, but rather ‘businesses meant to resemble’ their respective sports?

Couldn’t let this one go either….Michael Jordan got on ‘the good side’ of David Stern?  What, by being a transcendent athlete that grew the popularity of the league of which he was commissioner?

[Lorewarn]

3 minutes ago, Jason Sitoke said:

So your argument is that referees get paychecks from their employers, therefore game is compromised.  Don’t all leagues work this way?  

 

 

Not just leagues, but anything.

 

If you think about it, we can't trust scientists either, because it's their job, not their hobby.