Church/State: The Role Of Faith (all faiths) in the Public Marketplace of Ideas - Govt, Ed, Media Etc

[ZRod]

To expand on my last post, and be more relevant to TGs OP, as well as Loebarth (since I was too humorous and a bit snarky last night)... I don't have a problem with religion. In fact I deeply respect those who can devoted themselves to it and are disciplined in their practice. Whether that's Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists Hindu, etc. I also think there are many wonderful aspects of religion, chief among them the sense of community/family that they foster.

 

What I do have a problem with is forcing religion on people and claiming that their particular brand has some moral superiority (because almost every religion has a laundry list of pretty messed up things in it's history). Frankly, in my opinion, if you require religion in order to set your moral standards and definitions of dignity then you've got bigger problems. We don't need religion to tell us that we shouldn't murder, rape, and generally treat each other like s#!t. Those are just basic human principles, and actually those are just basic aspect of many sentient societies (we're not unique).

 

There's a reason some form of the golden rule exists in almost every society and religion. It's a basic universal philosophy and a requirement for a healthy society. I think we as humans are more than capable of governing ourselves with out specific religious doctrine. 

 

I think something we are sorely missing is a welcoming and inviting country that fosters a strong sense of community no matter who you are or where you're from. A big part of that is the division that evangelical christian extremism has fostered. It's used to justify treating those who don't follow lock-step like crap, to be racist, to take away women's rights, to disenfranchise minorities, and on and on. All because they aren't "like us". It's no different than the taliban or the supreme leaders of Iran.

 

So I guess I said all that to say, please keep religion out of the government and keep good sound philosophy based on empirical research in.

[TGHusker]

3 hours ago, ZRod said:

So I guess I said all that to say, please keep religion out of the government and keep good sound philosophy based on empirical research in.

Not sure we can, nor would we want to, keep religion out of govt as it is an important part of the fabric that makes much of our moral code, much of the values in our society & much of our modern law is based on religious precepts.  With that said, I do agree that one does not have to be 'religious' to be moral and that not all moral governing principles come directly from religion.  The principle of natural law applies.  I think this definition works: 

 

"Natural law is a theory in ethics and philosophy that says that human beings possess intrinsic values that govern their reasoning and behavior. Natural law maintains that these rules of right and wrong are inherent in people and are not created by society or court judges."  

 

As a Christian we would say that this is the law written upon our hearts - Romans chapters 1-3 speak towards this concept.  However, we don't want a religion to dominate government as it did for example in the Cromwell Era of England in the 1600s.  He ruled with a forceful hand that he felt was the hand of god upon him.  Because of his hard hand, combined with those that followed him,  the slow drip of history lead to a whole new experiment in govt in America.  The same is true today's version in Iran and other likeminded societies.  Communism could be considered a religion as well - one voice, one way, one law - disobey or speak against it and you are in the slammer at best. Hopefully over the slow drip of history, those societies will one day change as well.    

My concern as voiced in the OP is that America does not return to the ways of Cromwell.  We have always been tempted to do so - "Manifest Destiny" was a religious mandate to conquer all of the continental USA for the 'glory of god'.  No different than Cromwell dominating Ireland in a tyrannical way.  I see the spirit of Cromwell in MAGA, in GOP policies and pronouncements by their more vocal spokespersons.  Cannot God be glorified without destroying societies and cultures and without dominating other members of God's creation? - the answer is 1000x yes.   True here, true in England and hopefully true in China & Iran someday.  

[Lorewarn]

14 hours ago, Loebarth said:

One other reality that people misunderstand about Christ's teaching. Christ did not stand against the Romans and Roman Authority, nor did he stand against the Hebrew people or the non-believers (called Goyim).

 

 

We might be quibbling over semantics, but I would disagree with this. Jesus, and his follwers, spent a good deal of time and teaching in active (albeit non-violent and subversive) opposition to Rome and to the controlling Jewish religious leaders. Even the fact that the books documenting his story are called gospels is a very clever bit of scathing satire towards Caesar, as it was the Roman Empire that would pass out good news, ie 'gospel', pamphlets to newly conquered regions explaining how life abundant was to come from belonging to the kingdom of the god king (w a miraculous birth story) of Rome.

[commando]

worth noting that joe biden is only the 2nd catholic president to ever hold office

 

 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

The problem to me is that if a religion -- the dominant religion -- believes in the omniscience, agenda, and inevitability of its God, it holds a literal and figurative superiority over non-believers that can't be shaken. And of course there's a long, bloody history of seemingly minor divisions in Christian and Muslim sects driving the faithful to holy wars. This thread is already parsing Biblical passages to offer as evidence, but what of the people who don't consider the Bible the rule of law? Or the Torah? Or the Qur'an?  How many sacred texts are riddled with mixed messages, or interpreted quite differently between true believers? What's with the abrupt tonal change from the Old to New Testament, like it's a completely different author? 

 

Faith. Community. Purpose. Belonging. Believing. That's all great stuff, as is anything that brings people together to consider our common lot. But religion, especially in the public square, is too often about control. What we're seeing right now is an attack on the seats of knowledge, be it academia, journalism, science, or civics. Which means it's also an attack on facts, the kind that might be applied to making decisions. It has often been the role of organized religion to undercut and demonize any institution competing for the hearts and minds of people, and that sentiment has been resurgent and particularly well-organized in recent years.

 

The loving Christians, including several on this board, share my concerns and speak intelligently and compellingly on the subject. But they seem to be a minority of Christians at the moment, and few dare raise the political implications from the pulpit. 

[ZRod]

20 hours ago, TGHusker said:

Not sure we can, nor would we want to, keep religion out of govt as it is an important part of the fabric that makes much of our moral code, much of the values in our society & much of our modern law is based on religious precepts.  With that said, I do agree that one does not have to be 'religious' to be moral and that not all moral governing principles come directly from religion.  The principle of natural law applies.  I think this definition works: 

 

"Natural law is a theory in ethics and philosophy that says that human beings possess intrinsic values that govern their reasoning and behavior. Natural law maintains that these rules of right and wrong are inherent in people and are not created by society or court judges."  

 

As a Christian we would say that this is the law written upon our hearts - Romans chapters 1-3 speak towards this concept.  However, we don't want a religion to dominate government as it did for example in the Cromwell Era of England in the 1600s.  He ruled with a forceful hand that he felt was the hand of god upon him.  Because of his hard hand, combined with those that followed him,  the slow drip of history lead to a whole new experiment in govt in America.  The same is true today's version in Iran and other likeminded societies.  Communism could be considered a religion as well - one voice, one way, one law - disobey or speak against it and you are in the slammer at best. Hopefully over the slow drip of history, those societies will one day change as well.    

My concern as voiced in the OP is that America does not return to the ways of Cromwell.  We have always been tempted to do so - "Manifest Destiny" was a religious mandate to conquer all of the continental USA for the 'glory of god'.  No different than Cromwell dominating Ireland in a tyrannical way.  I see the spirit of Cromwell in MAGA, in GOP policies and pronouncements by their more vocal spokespersons.  Cannot God be glorified without destroying societies and cultures and without dominating other members of God's creation? - the answer is 1000x yes.   True here, true in England and hopefully true in China & Iran someday.  

Does religion make our moral code or did we make it, and what exactly from our moral code and modern law do you think comes from religion? Also, I assume you're only talking about Judeo Christian religion, right?

 

I ask because I think you come at this from a very narrow perspective given your leanings. I would argue that we've created these moral codes in order to be a functioning society. Because what I think you're going to point out won't be unique to Christianity but will be found all over the world.

 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

I'm guessing that many if not most Christians would like for the United States to be a Christian nation, and many of those would not mind if we went ahead and made that official. 

 

This is what separation of church and state was designed to avoid. It's worked out pretty well, as most of the Commandments are common sense directives that align with basic human decency, and forgoing a Nativity Manger on the public square does not prohibit the practicing of religion or celebration of Christmas. 

 

But I'm also guessing that human history is cyclical, and we seem to be entering a cycle that is agitating for a battle of morality, goaded by political forces seeking control of the masses. 

 

Full disclosure: I'm an agnostic. My personal belief is that we might get along better if we admitted what we don't really know. 

[TGHusker]

1 hour ago, ZRod said:

Does religion make our moral code or did we make it, and what exactly from our moral code and modern law do you think comes from religion? Also, I assume you're only talking about Judeo Christian religion, right?

 

I ask because I think you come at this from a very narrow perspective given your leanings. I would argue that we've created these moral codes in order to be a functioning society. Because what I think you're going to point out won't be unique to Christianity but will be found all over the world.

 

 

You got me pegged wrong.  Our moral codes as a society comes from a variety of sources- religious and non- religious teachings , natural law, a society’s combined experiences over time and other influences. Religion and Govt/ law both try to codify these codes and values in their respective ways for the benefit of society at as a hole.  It is best when all institutions work for the overall good of the society.   We become Iran if it is only religious influences allowed and we become China if only “secular “ govt solutions/ influences are allowed.  

[Guy Chamberlin]

1 hour ago, ZRod said:

Because what I think you're going to point out won't be unique to Christianity but will be found all over the world.

 

 

 

I read somewhere that almost every founding religious text contains a minor variation on The Golden Rule.

 

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It's so simple, so relatable, so easy to put into practice. It renders the rest of religious teachings almost superfluous. 

 

But it's a hard rule to fully adhere to, because at some level we reserve the right to want more, give less, and feel superior to others.  

[Lorewarn]

On 2/24/2024 at 11:52 AM, Guy Chamberlin said:

I'm guessing that many if not most Christians would like for the United States to be a Christian nation, and many of those would not mind if we went ahead and made that official. 

 

The loud ones, sure. I couldn't begin to guess at stats, but I think you'd be legitimately surprised at the size of the contingent of quiet, contemplative and humble folks (hell, many even progressive) that would fall into some part of the bell curve of Christianity. Unfortunately the contemplative and mystical expressions of faith are all but invisible in a media and connection landscape distinguished by unsolicited and superfluous commentary.

 

 

 

On 2/24/2024 at 11:52 AM, Guy Chamberlin said:

But I'm also guessing that human history is cyclical, and we seem to be entering a cycle that is agitating for a battle of morality, goaded by political forces seeking control of the masses. 

 

 

You'd like spiral dynamics, I think.

[Moiraine]

On 2/24/2024 at 10:59 AM, Guy Chamberlin said:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It's so simple, so relatable, so easy to put into practice. It renders the rest of religious teachings almost superfluous. 

But what if I like being slapped in the face. I think I need to create my own religion.

[teachercd]

7 hours ago, Moiraine said:

But what if I like being slapped in the face. I think I need to create my own religion.

Yeah, I watch some of those videos too