Wildcat with lee and martinez

[girlknowsfootball]

I have been saying this... Put lee and Martinez in their at the same time... Line them both up as if either could take the snap that way defenses never know who's gonna get it and they have to play the pass more thus leaving more space in the box... You could even put burkhead or helu in their as a lead blocker and run some power I with Martinez as a running back... Or burkhead as a third decoy QB... I just think that by having lee and Martinez in their at the same time it gives you options.

[bleedNUred]

Here we go.

[JTrain]

Or just move Martinez out at WR and Burkhead at QB like a standard Wildcat. They would have to keep a close eye on TM, unlike most QBs out there. Besides, at this point he could possibly be our best receiver...

 

 

Sort of unrelated... I'm surprised we didn't see at least one attempt at a trick play on Saturday. If there was one thing Cally/Watson seemed to do exceptionally well, it was having one really nice trick play ready for close games.

[bleedNUred]

Besides, at this point he could possibly be our best receiver...

Sad, but true.

[The Maudfather]

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

[BIGREDIOWAN]

At this point nothing is too crazy. We have to figure out a way to fool the defenses. If we don't we got to stop trying to get cute and just run it straight down their f-ing throats. "We're gonna run this, just try and stop it!"

[huskernumerouno]

We could also put Alex henery back to receive punts since he is so good at kicking the ball. He could catch it and kick it right away and thus we win the battle of field position because we have a better kicker than most teams. Eventually we would be close enough for him to do the old drop kick and get 3 points about every third kick.

[GMoose]

I don't think it's a terrible idea...they had a segment on this on Unsportsmanlike Conduct today. They said they'd never do it, however...

 

I think it could add another dimension to the offense, which might not be a bad thing to try. The only thing is, I highly doubt that we'll be "experimenting" with any new types of offensive plays at this point in the season.

[Jason Sitoke]

I might be inclined to agree if there was any evidence that Zac Lee is a markedly better passer than Martinez. Seems like having Martinez in there is like having Lee, except with 4.35 speed. That should be enough to keep defenses guessing.

[knapplc]

I might be inclined to agree if there was any evidence that Zac Lee is a markedly better passer than Martinez. Seems like having Martinez in there is like having Lee, except with 4.35 speed. That should be enough to keep defenses guessing.

This is a good point. Much of Martinez' problems passing have been the result of dropped passes. Yes, he's had bad throws, but so has Lee. Martinez' good throws are being dropped, making his stats look worse than they should. Martinez is a competent passer - not Joe Montana, but he's not Tommie Frazier, either.

[osborneagain]

I have been saying this... Put lee and Martinez in their at the same time... Line them both up as if either could take the snap that way defenses never know who's gonna get it and they have to play the pass more thus leaving more space in the box... You could even put burkhead or helu in their as a lead blocker and run some power I with Martinez as a running back... Or burkhead as a third decoy QB... I just think that by having lee and Martinez in their at the same time it gives you options.

 

what if we converted them both to DB? oh wait - that would be crazy, but it fits the theme

[zoogs]

I might be inclined to agree if there was any evidence that Zac Lee is a markedly better passer than Martinez. Seems like having Martinez in there is like having Lee, except with 4.35 speed. That should be enough to keep defenses guessing.

This is a good point. Much of Martinez' problems passing have been the result of dropped passes. Yes, he's had bad throws, but so has Lee. Martinez' good throws are being dropped, making his stats look worse than they should. Martinez is a competent passer - not Joe Montana, but he's not Tommie Frazier, either.

 

Qualitatively, having Martinez in there is exactly nothing like having Lee.

 

We've seen very little on Lee, keep in mind. And the biggest problem here is we are treating passing as a single simple ability. Martinez is nowhere close to Lee in the footwork or mechanics of throwing, and he is especially nowhere close in being able to read defenses, meaning both before the play (checking to other plays based on what the defense shows, and other adjustments) and during the play (going through progressions).

 

Last year, at the beginning of the year, Lee was limited in his progressions. Martinez is as well, currently (breakdown is from the Rivals free board). When TMart is asked to go through multiple progressions on a play, they are usually in the same zone of the field - left, middle, right. Against Texas, when we opened it up and progressions were in different areas of the field, Martinez struggled making them, resulting in broken plays. Lee, right now, opens us up to having these wrinkles in the passing game, where his first progression might be in the left middle of the field, his second might be right deep, and his third might be middle short. Or something like that, I'm no expert personally.

 

When you think about it, those aren't really wrinkles either. Those are basic elements of a passing attack, without which we'll get murdered by defenses. Supposedly, Virginia Tech last year saw what we were doing with Lee and made us really pay for it. My guess is that's why we stepped it up a notch against Texas, something which Martinez didn't handle particularly well.

 

When Taylor is in, we can still put up competent passing statistics, but the way we get them is different. We depend on the threat of the QB taking off and running (which we really put the nation on notice for with the Wash/KSU games) to get our receivers more open. And then Taylor can throw it in their neighborhood. Some of his throws are good, some are bad. Quite a lot are bad, but this is masked by how open the receivers often are. When Taylor gets to Lee's level in the passing game, then DC's will have a real headache figuring out what to do. Until then, it's force him to beat you with his arm. A few execution missteps (Burkhead, Paul, et al.) and he can't.

 

The problem I think is, Taylor can't really attack defenses consistently through the air. We are in quite a bit of trouble in obvious passing situations, which we often seem to find ourselves in. With Taylor, we'll get amazing plays a certain percentage of the time, but blown plays quite frequently. We'll set ourselves up in a lot of bad situations, and sometimes we are going to be bailed out, but it's hard to count on. At the end of the day, often we will still be able to put up good numbers, even great numbers, and score a lot of points, so I'm not really bagging on this as doomed to failure. But there are weaknesses to this plan, which is lack of multiplicity and overdependence on the home run. A good defense has the blueprint now to beat it. Of course, we execute well and they won't - it's that simple.

 

So in summary: we can still move the ball through the air with Taylor, but that doesn't mean he isn't a world of difference as a passing quarterback than Lee. It isn't as simple as saying, "Taylor has made some good throws, and Lee has made some bad throws, so they must be pretty similar."

[sd'sker]

yeah, and lee and martinez should use the same number and do a little swap-a-roo shell game in the huddle, really throw off the defense. and lee could get an identical tribal tattoo, as well.

[knapplc]

Qualitatively, having Martinez in there is exactly nothing like having Lee.

 

We've seen very little on Lee, keep in mind. And the biggest problem here is we are treating passing as a single simple ability. Martinez is nowhere close to Lee in the footwork or mechanics of throwing, and he is especially nowhere close in being able to read defenses, meaning both before the play (checking to other plays based on what the defense shows, and other adjustments) and during the play (going through progressions).

The bold cannot be understated, which makes the rest of this analysis suspect in the extreme. Because we've seen so little of 2010 Lee, the analysis below must necessarily be based on 1) eyewitness reports from practice, or 2) supposition. Even presuming #1 is the basis, that's still a practice situation, not live game. With no body of evidence to suggest Lee is markedly better in 2010 than he was in 2009, it's hard to take this with anything other than a grain of salt. Or two.

 

Last year, at the beginning of the year, Lee was limited in his progressions. Martinez is as well, currently (breakdown is from the Rivals free board). When TMart is asked to go through multiple progressions on a play, they are usually in the same zone of the field - left, middle, right. Against Texas, when we opened it up and progressions were in different areas of the field, Martinez struggled making them, resulting in broken plays. Lee, right now, opens us up to having these wrinkles in the passing game, where his first progression might be in the left middle of the field, his second might be right deep, and his third might be middle short. Or something like that, I'm no expert personally.

Without something resembling verification, the italicized is conjecture.

 

The rest can be mitigated by simplifying the passing game. We ran a very simplistic pass offense for about 17 years and had remarkable success, coupled with a strong run game. Won a couple-three championships doing it, too.

 

When you think about it, those aren't really wrinkles either. Those are basic elements of a passing attack, without which we'll get murdered by defenses. Supposedly, Virginia Tech last year saw what we were doing with Lee and made us really pay for it. My guess is that's why we stepped it up a notch against Texas, something which Martinez didn't handle particularly well.

Regardless of how well Martinez handled Texas' scheme, we were in position to win this game. Martinez' passing didn't lose this game for us, the passes that were placed in the hands of the receivers and subsequently dropped lost the game. Texas was able to commit the bulk of their defensive effort to stopping the run not because Martinez could not pass, but because our receivers could not/would not catch. That is the glaring bottom line of 10/16/2010.

 

When Taylor is in, we can still put up competent passing statistics, but the way we get them is different. We depend on the threat of the QB taking off and running (which we really put the nation on notice for with the Wash/KSU games) to get our receivers more open. And then Taylor can throw it in their neighborhood. Some of his throws are good, some are bad. Quite a lot are bad, but this is masked by how open the receivers often are. When Taylor gets to Lee's level in the passing game, then DC's will have a real headache figuring out what to do. Until then, it's force him to beat you with his arm. A few execution missteps (Burkhead, Paul, et al.) and he can't.

But this is unfair to Martinez. Lee could not have won the Texas game. Vince Ferragamo couldn't have won that game. Dave Humm couldn't have won that game. We could resurrect the dessicated bones of the best career Kurt Warner ever had with "The Greatest Show On Turf" in the heyday of the Rams, put that ability into the body of Taylor Martinez (or Zac Lee, or Cody Green) and we still would have lost this game.

 

Why? Because we dropped the ball. Eight times. Four of which would have either gone for TDs or first-and-goal inside the Texas ten.

 

The problem I think is, Taylor can't really attack defenses consistently through the air. We are in quite a bit of trouble in obvious passing situations, which we often seem to find ourselves in. With Taylor, we'll get amazing plays a certain percentage of the time, but blown plays quite frequently. We'll set ourselves up in a lot of bad situations, and sometimes we are going to be bailed out, but it's hard to count on. At the end of the day, often we will still be able to put up good numbers, even great numbers, and score a lot of points, so I'm not really bagging on this as doomed to failure. But there are weaknesses to this plan, which is lack of multiplicity and overdependence on the home run. A good defense has the blueprint now to beat it. Of course, we execute well and they won't - it's that simple.

The bold is demonstrably not true. Martinez moved the chains quite well through the air vs. our first five opponents. Yes, there was a mixture of horrific throws, and a particularly bad game, but we knew that would happen coming into the season with a Redshirt Freshman at the helm. Further, there is no evidence to suggest that 1) Lee (or Green) won't put us in those same situations and/or 2) that Lee (or Green) could bail us out of them either via the ground or through the air. There are weaknesses to every plan. In my 30-something years of watching football I've only seen one offensive team that could not be stopped. Every other team, every other season, there have been games where our players, their skills or our schemes were shut down, at least for one game, or the majority of the game.

 

The same thing happened against Texas. The difference in this game was not that we could not pass, it was that we could not catch. The simplistic passing schemes we necessarily have to run for a Redshirt Freshman worked. We had plays available to move the ball. We were in position, we executed every single thing until the instant of the catch. There is nothing in that game that demonstrates that Taylor Martinez cannot effectively move the ball through the air. The onus was squarely on the shoulders of the receivers.

 

So in summary: we can still move the ball through the air with Taylor, but that doesn't mean he isn't a world of difference as a passing quarterback than Lee. It isn't as simple as saying, "Taylor has made some good throws, and Lee has made some bad throws, so they must be pretty similar."

In summary: The home-run threat on the ground and competent passing ability of Martinez trumps the competent passing and lack of home-run threat on the ground Lee offers, and that means that Martinez at the helm, warts and all, is the better option.

[Enhance]

Good post knapplc, all of which I agree with.

 

The overwhelming issue from this year's Texas game was catching the ball. I don't care if you had Peyton Manning in that game: if your receivers drop balls, you aren't going to win. It doesn't matter how good you are at throwing the football. People have to catch it. Martinez has had errant throws, but he has also had some impressively accurate throws. An early deep ball to Paul was very catchable and so was the toss to Burkhead. One could have meant first and goal and the other could have meant touchdown. Those two plays could have at least resulted in 10 points and a victory. Also, don't forget: the last play Martinez was in the game for was actually a catch as opposed to the out of bounds ruling, and that was a damn good throw.

 

I expected Lee to start at the beginning of the season given experience, but I believe it is pretty obvious why he isn't the starter right now. His passing ability is not enough to place him over the running threat and passing ability of Martinez.