QB depth

[Danny Bateman]

You know, i seem to remember last year right after the spring game. The board was pretty well split between who would be the starting QB, some said Lee because of experience, some said Green because of his big play ability during FAU and others said Martinez because of what they saw during the spring game.

 

The end result was Martinez was the starter and everyone who picked Lee and Green quickly ran and bandwagoned onto the Martinez train.

 

It's going to be funny (to me at least) if history repeats itself again.

 

This is an unnecessarily pessimistic interpretation of what happened. Most people felt Lee would start because he had started the previous year, and we had done well under him. When Martinez got the gig, most people simply supported him because he's a Husker, not out of some bandwagon fandom.

NU 2009 Season, courtesy of Wikipedia:

 

Date Time Opponent# Rank# Site TV Result Attendance

September 5* 6:00 p.m. Florida Atlantic #24 Memorial Stadium • Lincoln, Nebraska FSN PPV W 49–3

September 12* 1:00 p.m. Arkansas State #22 Memorial Stadium • Lincoln, Nebraska FSN PPV W 38–9

September 19* 2:30 p.m. at #13 Virginia Tech #19 Lane Stadium • Blacksburg, Virginia ABC L 15–16

September 26*† 6:00 p.m. Louisiana-Lafayette #25 Memorial Stadium • Lincoln, Nebraska FSN PPV W 55–0

October 8 8:00 p.m. at #24 Missouri #21 Faurot Field • Columbia, Missouri ESPN W 27–12

October 17 2:30 p.m. Texas Tech #15 Memorial Stadium • Lincoln, Nebraska ABC L 10–31

October 24 11:30 a.m. Iowa State Memorial Stadium • Lincoln, Nebraska FSN L 7–9

October 31 11:30 a.m. at Baylor Floyd Casey Stadium • Waco, Texas Versus W 20–10

November 7 7:00 p.m. #20 Oklahoma Memorial Stadium • Lincoln, Nebraska ABC W 10–3

November 14 2:30 p.m. at Kansas University of Kansas Memorial Stadium • Lawrence, Kansas ABC W 31–17

November 21 6:30 p.m. Kansas State Memorial Stadium • Lincoln, Nebraska ESPN W 17–3

November 27 2:30 p.m. at Colorado Folsom Field • Boulder, Colorado ABC W 28–20

December 5 7:00 p.m. vs. #3 Texas #21 Cowboys Stadium • Arlington, Texas (Big 12 Championship Game) ABC L 12–13

December 30* 7:00 PM vs. #22 Arizona #20 Qualcomm Stadium • San Diego, California (Holiday Bowl) ESPN W 33–0

*Non-Conference Game. †Homecoming. #Rankings from AP. All times are in Central Time.

 

Would you really say we did well under Lee, Knapp? I mean, perhaps against the Sun Belt. But the same lee that piloted us to 10 points in the OK game? The same one on the field in the ISU game? That threw a pick the first offensive play after we got the momentum back from that pick in the Big 12 Title game? I will say he could've done worse in the CU and KU games. The Arizona game was an offensive anomaly for the whole team.

[okaive]

I remember when Green was coming here and all the hype was on him. Now look where we are with him now.

[knapplc]

Would you really say we did well under Lee, Knapp? I mean, perhaps against the Sun Belt. But the same lee that piloted us to 10 points in the OK game? The same one on the field in the ISU game? That threw a pick the first offensive play after we got the momentum back from that pick in the Big 12 Title game? I will say he could've done worse in the CU and KU games. The Arizona game was an offensive anomaly for the whole team.

 

Well, let's see. We're talking about the same Zac Lee, right? Led us to nine wins in '09 (Cody got the Baylor win), led us to within one second of the Big XII Championship, had us in position to beat Virginia Tech at Blacksburg, led us to one of the most stirring wins ever against Oklahoma - we're talking about that Zac Lee, right? The guy who did all that in his first year starting?

 

Or are we talking about some mythical Zac Lee who was - somehow - responsible for the loss to Iowa State (ignoring the eight fumbles), who was - somehow - responsible for the loss to VA Tech (ignoring the TD pass dropped in the end zone and the several defensive breakdowns on the last drive), or who was - somehow - responsible for the entire offense sucking ass during the CCG, a game he had us in position to win after driving down for the go-ahead field goal with under two minutes to play.... is that the Zac Lee we're talking about?

 

I'd say a 10-4 record with a final ranking in the top 15, when we hadn't finished ranked the previous three years, means we "had done well" with him at QB.

[The Dude]

With that defense we could have went 10-4 with Richard Simmons taking the snaps.

[Hujan]

While there have been a number of Spring Game flameouts, let's not forget that Martinez himself burst onto the scene with a similarly impressive spring game. I find it a tad funny, then, that Martinez fans would dismiss the idea that Carnes's SG performance will translate into a productive career as a young QB when that is the EXACT route their beloved Martinez took.

 

In any event, I freely admit that I have little to go on in my belief that Carnes has something special. But there is an undeniable fluidity to his game that is very rare and could translate to some serious star power. His game reminds me a lot of Tyrod Taylor, a true dual threat QB.

 

Whether he ultimately supplants Martinez, I cannot say. But I sense in Carnes two things that set him apart from Lee and Green. First, he looks very comfortable in the backfield and making plays when things breakdown. Second, I think he will have more big-play ability than either Lee or Green. Green and Lee just never seemed a home-run threat. I think Carnes will be different.

 

Bottom line: I am more excited about having Carnes behind Martinez than I ever was about Lee and Green.

[Hujan]

I remember when Green was coming here and all the hype was on him. Now look where we are with him now.

 

For the record, I was personally never very excited about him. Great kid, but was never impressed by his game.

[Igetbored216]

I am very concerned about the offense this year and the QB position is one of the reasons why. There is no proven depth there, and Martinez worries me as the leader of the team.

[GMoose]

I am very concerned about the offense this year and the QB position is one of the reasons why. There is no proven depth there, and Martinez worries me as the leader of the team.

Same here. People are quick to point out that he'll have a whole year under his belt, but defenses will have had an entire year to plan for him. Texas completely shut him down with just one extra week of gameplanning. Sure the offense will be different, but his skillset is very limited and pretty easy to plan for.

[knapplc]

I am very concerned about the offense this year and the QB position is one of the reasons why. There is no proven depth there, and Martinez worries me as the leader of the team.

Same here. People are quick to point out that he'll have a whole year under his belt, but defenses will have had an entire year to plan for him. Texas completely shut him down with just one extra week of gameplanning. Sure the offense will be different, but his skillset is very limited and pretty easy to plan for.

 

Texas was his fifth career start. And they did not "completely shut him down," as I'm sure you remember the dropped passes by... pretty much everyone.

 

Texas was not a Taylor Martinez failure, it was a team failure, from the Offensive Coordinator down to the backup Left Guard. That offense fluttered not because of Martinez, but because everyone ganked that whole game. Same thing happened with South Dakota State and Washington II, although by that time Taylor's wheels were screwed beyond repair.

 

It is possible that Martinez will be one of the few college football players who never develop beyond what they were in their first season, but the odds are that, like most guys, with more coaching and more reps he'll get better. Until that's proven to not be the case, I'll continue to believe he'll get better like Kyler Reed did, like Rex Burkhead did, like Roy Helu did, like BK did, etc, etc, etc.

 

If/when he shows that he's not any different than he was last year, with no improvement, then it's time to worry. Don't spend time worrying now.

[GMoose]

I am very concerned about the offense this year and the QB position is one of the reasons why. There is no proven depth there, and Martinez worries me as the leader of the team.

Same here. People are quick to point out that he'll have a whole year under his belt, but defenses will have had an entire year to plan for him. Texas completely shut him down with just one extra week of gameplanning. Sure the offense will be different, but his skillset is very limited and pretty easy to plan for.

 

Texas was his fifth career start. And they did not "completely shut him down," as I'm sure you remember the dropped passes by... pretty much everyone.

 

Texas was not a Taylor Martinez failure, it was a team failure, from the Offensive Coordinator down to the backup Left Guard. That offense fluttered not because of Martinez, but because everyone ganked that whole game. Same thing happened with South Dakota State and Washington II, although by that time Taylor's wheels were screwed beyond repair.

 

It is possible that Martinez will be one of the few college football players who never develop beyond what they were in their first season, but the odds are that, like most guys, with more coaching and more reps he'll get better. Until that's proven to not be the case, I'll continue to believe he'll get better like Kyler Reed did, like Rex Burkhead did, like Roy Helu did, like BK did, etc, etc, etc.

 

If/when he shows that he's not any different than he was last year, with no improvement, then it's time to worry. Don't spend time worrying now.

That may be true, but dropped passes against UT weren't the only reasons I think he's not that good of a passer. Running wise, his only excelled skill is straight line speed. I've been worried all along. And as far as team leadership goes, I don't see him improving in that regard either. People don't change.

[knapplc]

That may be true, but dropped passes against UT weren't the only reasons I think he's not that good of a passer. Running wise, his only excelled skill is straight line speed. I've been worried all along. And as far as team leadership goes, I don't see him improving in that regard either. People don't change.

 

"only excelled skill is straight line speed"

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gPe211xAh4

I searched for - tops - 15 seconds before finding this video. Note the several cutbacks he makes.

 

Sports Science breaks it down even further. That 70-degree cut he makes doesn't seem like he only has "straight line speed."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21mYRtUmc8k

 

I'm no Taylor Martinez fanboy. I could care less if Carnes or Kellogg or Martinez starts. But these obviously incorrect - baffingly incorrect - statements from people I know know a thing or two about football are going to get a response from me every time.

 

 

EDIT - forgot about the "bad passer" label. THIS ARTICLE by KC Joyner debunks this myth*, and this took me another ten seconds to find.

 

EDIT #2 - * = And we're talking about a Redshirt Freshman. Like most players, it is to be presumed that Taylor's passing will improve, even a little, over the next few years. Maybe it's a moot point if Carnes takes over, but the fact is that there are solid stats to back up the non-kool-aid-drinking notion that Martinez can get it done through the air.

 

EDIT #3 - People don't change? Wow.

[GMoose]

We obviously have different points of view. I'm biased because I'm a advocate for a pro-style offense, and my comparison point is a pocket passer. When we're talking about running skill, my comparison point is a Ricky Dobbs or early Pat White. He is clearly not a Zach Taylor. He is not a Pat White (although I admit the physical potential is there) I also admit he may have been hindered by Watson's conservative state of mind. But anyway, in terms of points of view, he is not a good passer, Kirk Cousins and Aaron Murray are good passers. He is not a dynamic runner, Dennard Robinson and Josh Nesbitt are (were) good runners.

 

EDIT: Yes, I believe people don't change. That is my subjective opinion. Does that make me right? No. But that is what I think.

 

EDIT 2: Where were those 70 degree cuts when he took tons of unnecessary sacks?

[Hercules]

 

EDIT 2: Where were those 70 degree cuts when he took tons of unnecessary sacks?

 

That's an interesting question. We should probably look at the film, but if I remember correctly, I think it's possible that it looked like Taylor could have had an injured ankle or something at that point of the season. Probably not though, I'm sure my mind was just playing tricks on silly old me.

 

 

EDIT: In response to your assertion that Taylor Martinez is not a leader, I submit this evidence: Taylor Martinez was seen in a picture with his teammates, at a lake/BBQ, and the upper part of his face did form in a way that made it appear he was smiling. In addition to that, Aaron Green tweeted a shout-out to Taylor Martinez a week or so ago, thanking Martinez for his help during drills that day. Checkmate, my friend, checkmate.

[zoogs]

Taylor's skill that really sets him apart is not just his straightline speed - Cody Green has quite a lot for example - it's his burst and acceleration. Fairly astonishing.

 

Here we go talking about how Taylor is not a bad passer again. He may be making significant strides this offseason, but last year, it was just a weakness. Did we get around it and enable him to produce through the air? Yes...and I think Taylor's skills running the ball make that possible. With him, it will likely always be about a high production-to-talent ratio. Look at Pat White, he's a pretty bad passer. And then look at the stats he produced in that system in spite of it.

 

Hercules, those sacks were really on Taylor. He was injured, sure, but it's not like he was exactly limping his way to running deep patterns as a receiver. It looked like he was just flustered out of his mind and panicked, big time. A huge checkmate by the opposing DC to get into our QB's head like that.

 

Although I've also seen a couple people throw around that maybe Watson instructed him to take those sacks. I'm not sure how reliable that info is. If it's right: really, Shawn? you don't trust your QB enough to let him throw the ball away? I can believe that Taylor was told to learn to take the sack and live another day in situations where turnovers might be risked - any QB has to learn when to do this - but I find it doubtful that Taylor was instructed to stand still in the pocket, and stare down that pass rush all the way until it hit him ten yards behind the line of scrimmage.

 

Don't get me wrong, Taylor showed some great things last year and I think he should be our starter, and I'm optimistic he has improved a lot and will continue to do great things on the field for us. And sure, the injury played some part in limiting him, but more importantly, he was mentally KO'd very thoroughly at times last season. That's just how it was, and the reason for that is he was a redshirt freshman, but it doesn't change the fact.

 

The last point I want to make: you can be an advocate of whatever offense you want, but in the end, any kind of offense involves some passing and some decision-making from your QB. If a mobile QB can provide zero threat through the air, then it's game over. Which is why Taylor's field general skills are worth discussing. They don't need to be great, really. But they need to not be a liability.

[Hercules]

In all seriousness, I don't think Martinez is that bad of a passer. He's not that good of a passer either. But he's more accurate than Eric Crouch was as a senior - he just doesn't have the pocket presence or knowledge of the system or experience that Crouch had. He's not as accurate as Frost or Frazier were, not yet anyways.

 

None of those guys were Peyton Manning, but that doesn't mean that they can't be incredibly successful in a system that fits them.

 

If you're comparing Martinez's passing ability to Kirk Cousins' passing ability, you're simply comparing apples to oranges. That's like comparing Martinez's running ability to Cousins' running ability. They're completely different types of players.

 

Last year, Martinez's passing ability wasn't our weakness, in all seriousness. Our inconsistency on offense, demonstrated most perfectly by our wide receivers' worst and best performances (Texas and then Oklahoma State) was our weakness early on. Later on, our weakness was lack of depth on the offensive line and at QB. When our guys got hurt, they still had to play, because they were still better than their backups. THAT was our problem. Not Taylor Martinez's passing ability - our problem was that when he got hurt, we didn't have anyone left that could run our offense. Zac Lee could run the snail version of our offense, but against Missouri that was worthless except for a big run by Helu - not much different than an injured Martinez against Oklahoma. Cody Green couldn't run our offense at all - they had to put Rex Burkhead at QB if they wanted to get into the endzone, and that was against a weak Colorado team for god's sake.

 

Criticism of Martinez's passing game is fair - he can certainly use improvement, it was a weakness in his overall game. But that's not why our offense struggled down the stretch. Great teams, teams that win national championships or conference championships - they either get lucky and make it through a season without their QB getting hurt - or they have such good depth behind/around their QB that when their QB gets hurt, they have a guy or two that can step in behind him.

 

Look at Oregon and Auburn last year - if Cam Newton goes down (or gets suspended), they lose. If Darron Thomas had gone down for more than one game against Washington, their championship hopes might have ended. But neither one of those teams were relying on a QB with two bad wheels to get to the BCS Title game. Auburn got lucky, Oregon got lucky and had depth. That and simply better consistency from the rest of their offense, is why they were better than us last year. Not because of Martinez's passing mechanics.