So why is it so hard to believe God is.....

[knapplc]

Matthew, Chapter 5

 

Eye for Eye

 

³⁸ “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’^{[h] 39} But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. ⁴⁰ And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. ⁴¹ If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. ⁴² Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

[Landlord]

Scripture also endorses "eye-for-an-eye." I guess I don't see how putting someone else in their place is such a horrible, unchristian act. That's why most Christians get walked on in these types of threads, because whenever we get assertive, some douchenozzle makes the comment about that type of thing not being Christian behavior. It's BS honestly.

 

Old Testament Jewish law Scripture endorses an "eye-for-an-eye", as sdskers said. It's not the action that makes it sin; it's your intention and your heart's desire. I can't say definitively what that is, because I'm not you, but I can say with confidence that you aren't being snide and prideful out of love and concern for knapp or anyone else. And if we, as Christians, get walked on, then great. Jesus said to turn the other cheek when the first gets striked, and to give our coat also when someone asks for our shirt, and He also told us that we would spend our life on this planet being walked on.

 

You can be assertive and still be gracious. It's not a dichotomy. You're just being an ass.

 

I've always said, better to be an ass than a pushover.

 

Edit: Just to be clear, I wasn't directing the pushover thing at you or anybody else. Just saying.

 

 

You can say that all you want, but I don't think Jesus ever would.

 

He went to the cross in silence. Remember that. He had a right to be praised and honored and respected and exhalted, and he willingly and gladly stepped into humiliation, shame, torture and death.

[sd'sker]

Old Testament Jewish law Scripture endorses an "eye-for-an-eye", as sdskers said. It's not the action that makes it sin; it's your intention and your heart's desire. I can't say definitively what that is, because I'm not you, but I can say with confidence that you aren't being snide and prideful out of love and concern for knapp or anyone else. And if we, as Christians, get walked on, then great. Jesus said to turn the other cheek when the first gets striked, and to give our coat also when someone asks for our shirt, and He also told us that we would spend our life on this planet being walked on.

 

You can be assertive and still be gracious. It's not a dichotomy. You're just being an ass.

+1, well said.

[HuskerShark]

Matthew, Chapter 5

 

Eye for Eye

 

³⁸ “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’^[h]39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. ⁴⁰ And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. ⁴¹ If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. ⁴² Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

 

So you're saying you're evil?

[HuskerShark]

You can say that all you want, but I don't think Jesus ever would.

 

He went to the cross in silence. Remember that. He had a right to be praised and honored and respected and exhalted, and he willingly and gladly stepped into humiliation, shame, torture and death.

 

Very great points. But I'm not Jesus, and I'm definitely not perfect.

[knapplc]

Matthew, Chapter 5

 

Eye for Eye

 

³⁸ “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’^{[h] 39} But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. ⁴⁰ And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. ⁴¹ If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. ⁴² Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

 

So you're saying you're evil?

I'm showing that it's a pretty poor faith that takes on the tenets of your religion and puts them off again with no more regard than changing your shirt.

[knapplc]

You can say that all you want, but I don't think Jesus ever would.

 

He went to the cross in silence. Remember that. He had a right to be praised and honored and respected and exhalted, and he willingly and gladly stepped into humiliation, shame, torture and death.

 

Very great points. But I'm not Jesus, and I'm definitely not perfect.

 

So you simply say "I'm not perfect" and think that makes it all better? I have bad news for you:

 

Luke, Chapter 13:

 

The Narrow Door

²² Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. ²³ Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, ²⁴ “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. ²⁵ Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

²⁶ “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

²⁷ “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

²⁸ “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. ²⁹ People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. ³⁰ Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

[Landlord]

You can say that all you want, but I don't think Jesus ever would.

 

He went to the cross in silence. Remember that. He had a right to be praised and honored and respected and exhalted, and he willingly and gladly stepped into humiliation, shame, torture and death.

 

Very great points. But I'm not Jesus, and I'm definitely not perfect.

 

 

Certainly grace abounds and covers your sin if you are in Christ and His elect, but your casualness towards this is really troubling. Being accepting of grace is very different than abusing grace. The first says "I am a wretched sinner, but I accept this gift that I don't deserve and because of it's extravagance I am compelled to obey and seek to be holy" while the second says "Because I know that I am a wretched sinner and have accepted this gift that I don't deserve, it doesn't make a difference if I change or not, because the gift is still available to me."

[HuskerShark]

You can say that all you want, but I don't think Jesus ever would.

 

He went to the cross in silence. Remember that. He had a right to be praised and honored and respected and exhalted, and he willingly and gladly stepped into humiliation, shame, torture and death.

 

Very great points. But I'm not Jesus, and I'm definitely not perfect.

 

 

Certainly grace abounds and covers your sin if you are in Christ and His elect, but your casualness towards this is really troubling. Being accepting of grace is very different than abusing grace. The first says "I am a wretched sinner, but I accept this gift that I don't deserve and because of it's extravagance I am compelled to obey and seek to be holy" while the second says "Because I know that I am a wretched sinner and have accepted this gift that I don't deserve, it doesn't make a difference if I change or not, because the gift is still available to me."

 

That's not what it's about. It's about a guy on a message board who thinks he's better than everybody else, and another person who points it out to him. Not as big of a deal as you are making it out as.

[knapplc]

That's not what it's about. It's about a guy on a message board who thinks he's better than everybody else, and another person who points it out to him. Not as big of a deal as you are making it out as.

 

 

Matthew, Chapter 7

Judging Others

 

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. ² For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

³ “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? ⁴ How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? ⁵ You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

[Landlord]

Always a great cause for joy when knapp consistently knows his way around scripture, theology and the gospel better than most Christians on here

[knapplc]

I have the advantage of being a Christian for 40 years. I was on Church Council, Choir, I attended more Bible studies than I can count and I led Bible studies. I've given sermons and otherwise led worship. I know the source material pretty well.

[ZRod]

I will agree there is a difference between faith and scientific fact. But, there is also a rather large difference between scientific theory and fact. Words matter. If it is just a theory, it is not yet absolute fact no matter how demonstrable or measurable it is. Let's have a little experiment of our own. Do you love your (pick one) wife/girlfiend/parent/child/any specific person? Prove it? I'll save you some time, you can't prove it beyond a theory. But I bet you still believe and have faith that you love this person.

 

Again I think you're confusing the word with it's common usage, here's the last sentence of the introduction.

Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.^[3] This is significantly different from the word "theory" in common usage, which implies that something is unsubstantiated or speculative

 

Or from the American Association for the Advancement of Science:

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact

 

I'm pretty sure you've got a scientific background JJ so I think you can appreciate the fact that a theory attempts to cover a pretty broad spectrum regarding a certain phenomena. It's never going to be a law because of that, but it can reliably predict an outcome for a subject. All I'm saying, and I think you agree here, is that we really shouldn't be comparing "faith" in science to "faith" in religion. I don't even want to use that words in a scientific sense, It's like saying you don't trust what you are seeing/calculating.

[JJ Husker]

 

 

Science is all about "why." Why do we exist? Why did the universe form? Why is this here? It's all about why. I'm not sure where you're coming up with this claim.

 

Regarding the "unsupported claims"

 

Science cannot fully explain at this moment exactly how everything came to be - therefore, God is an unsupported claim. Are you telling me that, because science doesn't have all the answers today, that the god myth you believe in is real? I don't think this is even remotely true or in any way supportable. Science's lack of all answers no more supports Christianity than it does Islam, Zoroastrianism, Shamanism, or any other faith. That is not remotely true.

 

We'll get there - I cannot support this. All I can do is see the foundation of knowledge we've gained in the past three hundred years of scientific method, and look forward to the eons and eons stretching before us and guess that we'll get there. I'll agree that is not a supportable truth. But it's a safer bet that we'll find out the intricacies of the universe through science in the next 2,000 years rather than finding verifiable proof of a god's existence. We've already had 2,000 years to show that, and there's still none. Further, that's a cherry-picked line out of a whole paragraph of thought, which again does nothing to support the idea that God or any god is real.

 

We might be getting somewhere here. No, I am not telling you that because science does not have all the answers that the God I believe in is therefore real. I am simply saying I believe in God. I think a higher power caused creation even if science can break it down into plancks and strings and 11 unknown, so far unmeasurable, new dimensions. It only seems logical to me that science can and probably will eventually be able to figure out a way to quantify and explain things that have happened in the past. What I don't get is how that disproves the possibility of a God. I am at your mercy if you want me to provide any proof why I believe in God. I try to the best of my ability to explain it but I realize very little of it meets the burden of scientific proof and most of my best reasons are merely anecdotal to others.

 

And, while we're on the subject, I also realize that had I been born in the mideast instead of the US, I would more than likely believe in Allah and subscribe to the muslim faith or had it been 5,000 years ago, I very well might've been a Gilgamesh follower, I for sure wouldn't have been a Christian at that point in time. I think I have a pretty complex belief structure. I am Christian and now Catholic and I believe my way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. But I also believe there are multiple other ways to avoid eternal damnation. Heck, I'm not even sure I believe in eternal damnation but I do believe a soul could spend eternity outside of God's presence. I think that there is one God and that he closely resembles the God outlined by my religion and the Bible. But, I also think this one God could also be Allah, Buddha, Gilgamesh, and whatever name people have used to try to explain him. That is why I don't get hungup on telling people they are wrong or doing it wrong. I have been exposed to Christianity the most so I identify with that way. I think it is a perfectly plausible way. However, the strongest belief I have is that God is all powerful and will do the right thing for all people. Personally I would not want to have any part of a God who would not be able to make situational allowances. I believe many of the stories contained in the books of the Bible are there for illustrative, instructional purposes and not all of them are to be taken literally word for word. I just happen to believe that I have been exposed to Christianity so therefore that is the right way for me. I see where it can appear complicated and convoluted to somebody else who thinks they have the answers or understands my particular religion and then assumes I subscribe to each and every belief in the same way others do or the way I am supposed to. But that isn't me. And, I think if you look delve far enough into what individual people really think and believe, you will find that not one of them is exactly the same. I guess logic would indicate that there must be only one right way. I happen to believe with an all powerful, all knowing God, there could be billions of ways. I think, with the combination of time and human involvement, it is highly likely no organized religion has it exactly right. I guess I won't have the empirical evidence some people desire until I meet my creator.

 

Hopefully that helps begin to explain my beliefs a little. I think it should also give you some indication of why I take offense when other people attempt to tell me I am wrong. If you want to make that claim with me then please bring it with the supporting evidence. As much as some people who do not share my belief would like to think I apparently know less than them or have studied it less than them or am just plain stupider than them, I can pretty much assure you that is not the case. I am not as educated as maybe I should be because I am usually satisfied with just enough information to solve the problem and to get by. I feel I am pretty darned efficient about not expending more energy than is required for the task at hand. I may have not studied all these ancient religions in depth or fully explored string theory but I am very far from some backwoods hick beating on my Bible as my only proof. My IQ was scored at 169 back in my high school days. I don't say that to brag and I do not put a lot of stock in it but that is genius level and it is in line with a level of intelligence higher than 99% of the rest of humanity. I can assure you I have wasted much of that potential (mostly from my college days in Lincoln) but I also do not struggle much understanding anything I really want to learn about. I have not in my almost 50 years seen the thing or combination of things to change my belief in the existence of God. Really, it hasn't even been close yet. When I do, rest assured that I will no longer believe the same as I do now.

[knapplc]

JJ, at no time have I ever said your belief was wrong (or if I used those words, I conveyed poorly what I was saying). At no time have I ever told anyone, including my own wife who remains Christian, that they should stop being Christian. I will not do that, because frankly I don't see how it's harming you - in fact, I think it helps a great many people, including my wife. So if it helps you and doesn't harm others, by all means remain Christian (or whatever faith you adhere to, anyone else reading).

 

The goal of these talks, for me, is not to convert anyone away from Christianity. It's simply to express what I believe. If I make sense, and you think differently than you do as a result of our talks, then I would only be happy about that if who you became made you a happier person than who you are. I would be very upset to find that changing your belief as a result of something I said caused you grief (or anyone else).