Is Tommie as good as he has been made out to be?

[knapplc]

Brooke Berringer was a wonderful young man who died tragically young. He was instrumental in helping Nebraska win the 1994 National Championship (minus that interception) but he could not have started on any team in the country, and it's doubtful the NFL was in his future. We were lucky to have him as our backup QB, but his death shouldn't elevate him to something he wasn't. He was good enough being the man he was.

I'm not trying to turn this into an argument on Brook Berringer the man.

 

I just dont see how credit cant be givin to a player for making a great play. Brook made the right decision at the time by trying to throw it away. He just executed it a little poorly. But mainly he didnt get enough on the ball because he was on the run. Yes, he missed the read right away, but still the defender made a great play. It's not like he threw it directly to a corner sittin on an out or slant.

 

Yeah, I don't get that, either. Collinsworth said Little made a "Dwight Clark-like" play, but instead of praising the opponent and allowing our player the grace of forgiveness on a play he could have made just an nth-degree better, we gotta be sure to correct the misconception that Brook did anything other than screw up. It's weird.

[Enhance]

Players are typically only as good as the the rest of their team allows them to be. Clearly, the teams Frazier played on were phenomenal. The offensive line was definitely the most integral part of their success.

 

When Frazier was in the game, however, the offense possessed a specific firepower unseen when Berringer or Turner were in. While the offense was successful more often than not, Frazier ran the offense better than anybody else. Obviously, if the overall team was worse, Frazier would have been less successful. But a player's Hall of Fame candidacy should not greatly reflect the circumstants surrounding him. I think they can play a small role, but not a large one.

[In the Deed the Glory]

It's "Tommie". And, no. People are myth-builders. Not even Jordan quites lives up to his legend.

 

Wow. That is a pretty amazing statement. What do you back that one up with?

[flatwaterfan]

It's "Tommie". And, no. People are myth-builders. Not even Jordan quites lives up to his legend.

 

Wow. That is a pretty amazing statement. What do you back that one up with?

 

Jordan did get away with a lot of palming, carry the ball, traveling and favorable calls. For some players they changed the games rules to stop them and for others they let them slide. Didn't Jordan himself say that there were more talented players after losing a game of 1 on 1 onetime?

[In the Deed the Glory]

It's "Tommie". And, no. People are myth-builders. Not even Jordan quites lives up to his legend.

 

Wow. That is a pretty amazing statement. What do you back that one up with?

 

Jordan did get away with a lot of palming, carry the ball, traveling and favorable calls. For some players they changed the games rules to stop them and for others they let them slide. Didn't Jordan himself say that there were more talented players after losing a game of 1 on 1 onetime?

 

I have no idea about the 1 on 1 comment, I know Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, and Kareem all say Michael Jordan is the best player of all time. And they say it isn't close...

 

Wow, favorable calls. At that time in the NBA it was not illegal to hand-check. You could actually, as a defender, push the opposing player whichever way you wanted with a hand on his hip. That seems pretty favorable for a defender. The opposing teams would purposely be much more physical, bordering on violent, to Jordan when he went into the paint because they couldn't stop him so they tried to intimidate him. The Pistons made this famous with The Jordan Rules.

 

He was the best perimeter defender in the league, probably in history. He continually guarded the other teams best player so Scottie could roam and play "free safety".

 

In one season he was the scoring champion at over 37 ppg, All-Star game MVP, NBA MVP, and Defensive Player of the Year. That has never been done before, and not been done since.

 

I think he lives up to his Legend just fine.

 

That being said, this isn't a thread about Jordan. Back on topic.

[AllNRed]

Any coach will take Will to Win over Better Statistics.

 

In the '94 Orange Bowl, Brook Berringer was handed the ball inside the Miami 10 and immediately threw a very stupid interception. Frazier came off the bench and simply willed the Huskers to win that game.

 

If Alex Henery had been on the '93 Huskers, he would have made that 40 yard field goal and everyone would remember how blatantly Tommie Frazier outplayed Heisman Trophy winner Charlie Ward.

 

Frazier never had great stats but everybody from ESPN to the Heisman Voters* to the Hall of Fame saw through it and gave Tommie his due as an all-time great. Tommie Frazier has never been underappreciated. Just as he's never been over-rated. Of all the pointless sports arguments (see our very own Ron Dayne vs. Mike Rozier thread) this is one that's already been put to bed.

 

* I know this is a sore spot for some, but given Tommie's supporting cast and non-traditional Heisman stats, there was no shame coming in second.

 

-Not any, as a matter of fact most coaches prefer their players to have some ability to put up stats. Will should be something that is in the entire team. A player can have all the will in the world but without the ability, he WILL fail more times than not.

 

-Frazier did more than WILL the team past Miami. I'm sure Berringer had the WILL to win when he threw the INT.....and i believe Frazier had early struggles in the game also, which is why he was replaced by Berringer in the game.

 

-Frazier didn't OUTPLAY Charlie Ward. That was a very even match up of two of the best dual threat QBs at that time. I know I was hoping for the match up since the beginning of that season. Would have liked a different result in the game though...

 

-Any conversation about past players/games is pointless if you look at it in that light, because it's one person's perception vs another's, but nothing changes, but generate good conversations amongst the fans. If you feel this and the Dayne/Rozier are pointless, why do you participate in the conversation.......

 

-The last line we can agree on. As well as the fact that Frazier was never under appreciated or overrated.

[AllNRed]

It's "Tommie". And, no. People are myth-builders. Not even Jordan quites lives up to his legend.

 

Wow. That is a pretty amazing statement. What do you back that one up with?

 

Jordan did get away with a lot of palming, carry the ball, traveling and favorable calls. For some players they changed the games rules to stop them and for others they let them slide. Didn't Jordan himself say that there were more talented players after losing a game of 1 on 1 onetime?

 

What....Jordan doesn't do anything different with the ball than Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, or any other superstar. Obviously there are calls made in their favor, because they are franchise/superstars in the league, but his talent and accomplishments speak for itself. I would love to see a link about the 1 on 1 comment. Not sure where you saw that he considered someone be better or equal to him. When they made comparisons while he was in the league, it drove him to show how much better than that player he was, see Clyde Drexler/Magic Johnson.......... Even today, someone mentions Lebron James duplicating something MJ did or surpassing, and he goes on record that he could enter the league today if wanted and still dominate.....(I find that hard to believe at age 50, but you can see where is mindset is/was at)

[Guy Chamberlin]

Brooke Berringer was a wonderful young man who died tragically young. He was instrumental in helping Nebraska win the 1994 National Championship (minus that interception) but he could not have started on any team in the country, and it's doubtful the NFL was in his future. We were lucky to have him as our backup QB, but his death shouldn't elevate him to something he wasn't. He was good enough being the man he was.

I'm not trying to turn this into an argument on Brook Berringer the man.

 

I just dont see how credit cant be givin to a player for making a great play. Brook made the right decision at the time by trying to throw it away. He just executed it a little poorly. But mainly he didnt get enough on the ball because he was on the run. Yes, he missed the read right away, but still the defender made a great play. It's not like he threw it directly to a corner sittin on an out or slant.

 

Yeah, I don't get that, either. Collinsworth said Little made a "Dwight Clark-like" play, but instead of praising the opponent and allowing our player the grace of forgiveness on a play he could have made just an nth-degree better, we gotta be sure to correct the misconception that Brook did anything other than screw up. It's weird.

 

Don't know what clip you were watching, but Collinsworth dissected the play and called it a bad decision by Berringer. Which is how every Nebraska fan who watched the game at the time remembers it. It's weird to call it anything else. And while I'm sure Tom Osborne forgave Brook, I notice he didn't put him back in the game. He put a less than 100% Tommie Frazier into the game, and Frazier led us from behind to win the National Championship. In a thread titled "Is Tommy (sic) as good as he has been made out to be" the observation was made to praise a Husker player and point out that not just any quartback could have been plugged into the Nebraska system and gotten the same result.

[Guy Chamberlin]

That INT by Little was a great athletic play. Berringer was throwing that ball where it would be a TD or incomplete. Little made a hell of a play and got the ball, and all you can do is tip your cap to him and move on.

 

Collinsworth and I agree, it was a bad decision. Berringer had plenty of time to read the play, and clearly didn't throw the ball where it would be incomplete, as Little had plenty of room in front and behind. It's pretty easy to throw the ball out of the end zone. Athletic play by Little, sure. But since the ball was nowhere near a Husker receiver it should have gone way out of the end zone. I remember it well, because in 1994 we believed Nebraska was snakebit in big games, and the gift TD turned gift interception just killed me.

 

It's never the other guy that happens to make a great play. It's always our guys that suck ass isnt it?

 

No, chief. All you have to do is go back a few posts. "Our Guy" Tommie Frazier made great plays, left Warren Sapp literally sucking wind, led us to that awesome fourth quarter. Berringer threw a bad interception, as most neutral parties were able to observe. Not sure how giving Tommie Frazier credit for being a better quarterback qualifies as knee-jerk Husker bashing.

 

Great interception.

 

Bad decision.

 

Let's move on.

I suppose it's Suh's fault for forcing Colt McCoy to throw the ball away with a fraction of a second left as opposed to lettin it run out.

 

Not sure what point you're trying to make, but McCoy very nearly screwed up on that play. Suh gets credit for the rush, but McCoy had time and space to ditch the ball, and almost lost the game by lobbing it too lazily, apparently thinking the clock stopped when the ball crossed the out-of-bounds plane rather than when it landed. He was :01 or two degrees of arc away from being an all-time goat.

[Count 'Bility]

Ok. I'll take Chris Collinsworth's expert evaluation over my opinion. Thanks for the perspective.

[Count 'Bility]

You wanna know where the mistake was made. It was Osborne's fault for callin a damn PA bootleg to the short side to begin with when he had 4 downs to power it in from the 4. It was TO's grinding desire to prove that he wasnt a boring conservative old fogey that everyone thought he was. Osborne screwed it up, and he shenanigans almost cost us another title playing musical qb and all.

[knapplc]

Yeah, I don't get that, either. Collinsworth said Little made a "Dwight Clark-like" play, but instead of praising the opponent and allowing our player the grace of forgiveness on a play he could have made just an nth-degree better, we gotta be sure to correct the misconception that Brook did anything other than screw up. It's weird.

 

Don't know what clip you were watching,

 

This one:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=988Rsnno2Ik&feature=player_detailpage#t=7848s

 

 

Edit - it won't let me link directly to the spot. Check out Collinsworth's analysis at 2:10:45.

[Guy Chamberlin]

Yeah, I don't get that, either. Collinsworth said Little made a "Dwight Clark-like" play, but instead of praising the opponent and allowing our player the grace of forgiveness on a play he could have made just an nth-degree better, we gotta be sure to correct the misconception that Brook did anything other than screw up. It's weird.

 

Don't know what clip you were watching,

 

This one:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=988Rsnno2Ik&feature=player_detailpage#t=7848s

 

 

Edit - it won't let me link directly to the spot. Check out Collinsworth's analysis at 2:10:45.

 

Guess I was thinking of the analyisis offered a few seconds before that:

 

"Dangerous! Berringer threw it up for grabs!

 

"It looked like the play had a chance, but Berringer made the decision to hang onto it and just absolutely blew it. That's one of those plays that as a quarterback you have to make the play immediately or throw the ball away. A blown play by Brook Berringer."

[knapplc]

I chose to pay attention to his full analysis.

[Guy Chamberlin]

I chose to pay attention to his full analysis.

 

Or ignore half of it.

 

Tomato, tomahto.

 

 

 

This isn't what I had in mind when I suggested moving on.