Which Scandal is the worse for the President & Country

[Ziggy]

oh oh I know your obtuse.....angle

[knapplc]

oh oh I know your obtuse.....angle

 

How do you know his obtuse... angle? College friends?

[Saunders]

It's not that gunwalking is "no big deal." It's that after a while you become numb to the hysterical "this is worse than Watergate!!!!!11!!!1!!!!!" spew.

 

The boy who cried wolf, so to speak - whether there were wolves or not. Because that boy is only crying wolf when wolves he doesn't like are attacking the sheep. If they're his wolves... crickets.

Oh, I agree. I just find it amusing. It's all part of the political game. If it happened under Bush, the dems would be screaming. Since it happened under Obama, the republicans are (were) screaming. It was a dismal failure, and was a poor idea. Meanwhile, Eric Holder is still employed...

[knapplc]

It's not that gunwalking is "no big deal." It's that after a while you become numb to the hysterical "this is worse than Watergate!!!!!11!!!1!!!!!" spew.

 

The boy who cried wolf, so to speak - whether there were wolves or not. Because that boy is only crying wolf when wolves he doesn't like are attacking the sheep. If they're his wolves... crickets.

Oh, I agree. I just find it amusing. It's all part of the political game. If it happened under Bush, the dems would be screaming. Since it happened under Obama, the republicans are (were) screaming. It was a dismal failure, and was a poor idea. Meanwhile, Eric Holder is still employed...

 

Exactly. The partisanship is horrendous. Everyone is kinda generally dissatisfied with congress or "those politicians in Washington," but we're at a vastly worse place today than anything I've seen in my four decades.

[TGHusker]

Good opinion piece by Peggy Noonan on the IRS scandal. </p>

 

http://online.wsj.co...s%3Darticle</p>

 

A portion copied here:

"But the most important IRS story came not from the hearings but from Mike Huckabee's program on Fox News Channel. He interviewed and told the story of Catherine Engelbrecht—a nice woman, a citizen, an American. She and her husband live in Richmond, Texas. They have a small manufacturing business. In the past few years she became interested in public policy and founded two groups, King Street Patriots, and True the Vote.

In July 2010 she sent applications to the IRS for tax-exempt status. What followed was not the harassment, intrusiveness and delay we're now used to hearing of. The US government came down on her with full force.

 

In December 2010 the FBI came to ask about a person who'd attended a King Street Patriots function. In January 2011 the FBI had more questions. The same month the IRS audited her business tax returns. In May 2011 the FBI called again for a general inquiry about King Street Patriots. In June 2011 Engelbrecht's personal tax returns were audited and the FBI called again. In October 2011 a round of questions on True the Vote. In November 2011 another call from the FBI. The next month, more questions from the FBI. In February 2012 a third round of IRS questions on True the Vote. In February 2012 a first round of questions on King Street Patriots. The same month the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms did an unscheduled audit of her business. (It had a license to make firearms but didn't make them.) In July 2012 the Occupational Safety and Health Administration did an unscheduled audit. In November 2012 more IRS questions on True the Vote. In March 2013, more questions. In April 2013 a second ATF audit.

All this because she requested tax-exempt status for a local conservative group and for one that registers voters and tries to get dead people off the rolls. Her attorney, Cleta Mitchell, who provided the timeline above, told me: "These people, they are just regular Americans. They try to get dead people off the voter rolls, you would think that they are serial killers.&

This week Ms. Engelbrecht, who still hasn't received her exemptions, sued the IRS.

With all the talk and the hearings and the news reports, it is important to keep the essentials of this story in mind.

First, only conservative groups were targeted in this scandal by the IRS. Liberal or progressive groups were not targeted. The IRS leaked conservative groups' confidential applications and donor lists to liberal groups, never the other way around

This was a political operation. If it had not been, then the statistics tell us left-wing groups would have been harassed and abused, and seen their applications leaked to the press. There would be a left-wing equivalent to Catherine Engelbrecht

And all of this apparently took place in the years leading up to the 2012 election. Meaning that before that election, groups that were anti-Obamacare, or pro-life, or pro-Second Amendment or constitutionalist, or had words like 'tea party' or 'patriot' in their name—groups that is that would support Republicans, not Democrats—were suppressed, thwarted, kept from raising money and therefore kept from fully operating

That is some kind of coincidence. That is some kind of strangely political, strangely partisan, and strangely ideological & ;poor customer service. "

Peggy quotes Jay Leno:

"And we know Jay Leno, grown interestingly fearless, said of the new IRS commissioner, "They're called 'acting commissioner' because you have to act like the scandal doesn't involve the White House."

 

TG speaking now:

If the tables were turned and liberal organizations and citizens were targeted how loud would the out cry be?? My guess - much louder. The fact of the matter the slippery slope begins when we allow liberal or conservative administrations to use govt power unjustly to single out groups or individuals opposed to their policies. I think GWB went to far with the Patriot Act. It reminds me of this famous quote (And NO I am not comparing this admin or the GWB admin wt Hitler - so don't go there). The principle is that if any American's rights or freedoms are stepped on then all Americans have had their rights and freedoms stepped on. </p>

 

 

 

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

 

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

 

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. <

 

I don't follow Ayn Rand but this quote is applicable:

The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities. - Ayn Rand"

[carlfense]

Apparently, having the ATF give a couple thousand guns to Mexican drug lords is no big deal.

Say what?

 

I'd say that would be quite a big deal. Link?

[Saunders]

Apparently, having the ATF give a couple thousand guns to Mexican drug lords is no big deal.

Say what?

 

I'd say that would be quite a big deal. Link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

 

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/atf-fast-furious-sg,0,3828090.storygallery

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/10/01/here-are-5-things-you-didnt-know-about-operation-fast-and-furious/

 

And when pressed about it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/20/obama-executive-privilege-fast-and-furious_n_1611962.html

[carlfense]

Apparently, having the ATF give a couple thousand guns to Mexican drug lords is no big deal.

Say what?

 

I'd say that would be quite a big deal. Link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

 

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/atf-fast-furious-sg,0,3828090.storygallery

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/10/01/here-are-5-things-you-didnt-know-about-operation-fast-and-furious/

 

And when pressed about it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/20/obama-executive-privilege-fast-and-furious_n_1611962.html

So where is the part about the ATF giving a couple thousand guns to Mexican drug lords? Or are you just grossly misrepresenting the topic?

[Ziggy]

oh oh I know your obtuse.....angle

 

How do you know his obtuse... angle? College friends?

 

 

Dont ask dont tell..... crap, that doesnt apply anymore. Well I saw it on the internet once, so its gotta be true.

[knapplc]

If the tables were turned and liberal organizations and citizens were targeted how loud would the out cry be?? My guess - much louder.

 

How much louder would you like the outcry to be? Everyone here, every news organization, every pundit, everyone everywhere except the most jaded liberal whackjobs are decrying this and demanding answers. What more needs to be said?

[Saunders]

Apparently, having the ATF give a couple thousand guns to Mexican drug lords is no big deal.

Say what?

 

I'd say that would be quite a big deal. Link?

http://en.wikipedia....walking_scandal

 

http://www.latimes.c...90.storygallery

 

http://www.theblaze....st-and-furious/

 

And when pressed about it: http://www.huffingto..._n_1611962.html

So where is the part about the ATF giving a couple thousand guns to Mexican drug lords? Or are you just grossly misrepresenting the topic?

 

During Operation Fast and Furious, by far the largest "gunwalking" probe, the ATF monitored the sale of about 2,000^[1]:203[15] firearms, of which only 710 were recovered as of February 2012.^[1]:203 A number of straw purchasers have been arrested and indicted; however, as of October 2011, none of the targeted high-level cartel figures have been arrested.^[6]

Guns tracked by the ATF have been found at crime scenes on both sides of the Mexico–United States border, and the scene where United States Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was killed. The "gunwalking" operations became public in the aftermath of Terry's murder.^[2] Dissenting ATF agents came forward to Congress in response.^[16][17] According to Humberto Benítez Treviño, former Mexican Attorney General and chair of the justice committee in the Chamber of Deputies, related firearms have been found at numerous crime scenes in Mexico where at least 150 Mexican civilians were maimed and killed.^[18] Revelations of "gunwalking" led to controversy in both countries, and diplomatic relations were damaged.^[2]

 

Does that work for you? Should I change "gave them" to "allowed them to traffic a bunch of guns in a controversial operation that was covered up by the administration?"

Or is that too harsh?

[carlfense]

Does that work for you? Should I change "gave them" to "allowed them to traffic a bunch of guns in a controversial operation that was covered up by the administration?"

Or is that too harsh?

It's really your decision. You can misrepresent your story and risk the focus shifting to your factual inaccuracies or you could accurately represent your story.

 

I generally prefer the latter. If you would rather write hyperbole and falsehoods that's on you.

[Saunders]

Does that work for you? Should I change "gave them" to "allowed them to traffic a bunch of guns in a controversial operation that was covered up by the administration?"

Or is that too harsh?

It's really your decision. You can misrepresent your story and risk the focus shifting to your factual inaccuracies or you could accurately represent your story.

 

I generally prefer the latter. If you would rather write hyperbole and falsehoods that's on you.

Nothing I said was wrong. I simply sumarized.

 

ATF allowed straw purchases to buy guns for cartels. Fact.

Some members of the ATF did not approve of the gunwalking. Fact. Fact.

The ATF normally didn't allow guns to travel so far. Fact.

The guns they let go were turning up in violent crimes. Fact.

A US Border agent was killed by one of these guns. Fact.

They've only recovered 1/3. Fact.

Congress investigated, Administration stonewalled, and invoked executive privilege to hide what happened. Fact. Fact.

 

Please tell me exactly what was incorect and cite sources.

[TGHusker]

If the tables were turned and liberal organizations and citizens were targeted how loud would the out cry be?? My guess - much louder.

 

How much louder would you like the outcry to be? Everyone here, every news organization, every pundit, everyone everywhere except the most jaded liberal whackjobs are decrying this and demanding answers. What more needs to be said?

Maybe so, maybe not all;

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2013/05/11/wow-cbs-news-president-and-wh-official-tied-to-benghazi-scandal-are-brothers-n1593081

[knapplc]

If the tables were turned and liberal organizations and citizens were targeted how loud would the out cry be?? My guess - much louder.

 

How much louder would you like the outcry to be? Everyone here, every news organization, every pundit, everyone everywhere except the most jaded liberal whackjobs are decrying this and demanding answers. What more needs to be said?

Maybe so, maybe not all;

http://townhall.com/...others-n1593081

 

What's your takeaway from this piece?