Why Are You an Atheist or a Believer?

[knapplc]

 

 

 

But yeah. A real head scratcher.

 

What I can't see is how adding the assumption of an all powerful being no one can detect or communicate with makes this puzzle any simpler. We're just adding an even more complex mystery to the one we already have, and this one comes with the baggage of being both unprovable and unfalsifiable.

I'm taking the development of earth up to this point in time as a given. Regardless of whether God created it, or earth's creation resulted from random happenstance. It happened. And that's not what I'm concerned with. What I'm talking about is the odds of the earth maintaining stability from this point forward. It it was random happenstance that resulted in everything up to this point, then it seems overwhelmingly likely that the complex systems of the earth will fail and life on earth will end. For every earth that continues merrily humming along, there must be a million other earths that flame out in a series of explosive, disease ridden disasters every day. For every earth where the outbreak of AIDs is contained, there must be thousands of earths where AIDs goes airborne and snuffs out all human life in a few short months. Think of the consequence for mankind if the earth somehow heated up by 10 degrees Celsius over the next decade, and stayed that way for a few hundred years. Or got colder by 10 degrees. How is it that every day, we are one of the lucky ones? Why is it that the design of all the incredibly complex systems on earth are so robust that we don't simply break down some day and fall by the wayside?

 

Going forward, when you consider all of the possible things that could go wrong with the complexity of earth's many systems, I don't see how you could avoid thinking that a higher power may have somehow been involved in creation.

 

I'm not quite sure how to take this, considering the warnings upon warnings upon warnings we're getting from climatologists about impending climatological disasters we keep hearing about on a weekly basis. If we don't do something to stop our production of greenhouse gases, we could make this planet unlivable.

 

And...at this point, I get back to the question I have in my mind and have discussed on here many times, if there is no God or deeper meaning in life than just a bunch of random chemical reactions, why even warm people about climatological disasters? That massive chemical reaction that ultimately would destroy the Earth would really have no more meaning than what happens with yeast when I bake bread. All it is is a continuation of an extremely long chemical process.

 

 

Because life without a deity isn't fatalistic. I love my family, I want to live to see grandchildren someday, I want to see what happens next, I'm curious... none of those things are dependent on a deity.

 

This line of thinking says that, without god/an afterlife, this life isn't worth living. That's why I came up with the Prom/After Prom analogy. This life (the Prom) is worth living in its own right. Whether outrageous fortune deals us slings & arrows or not.

[BigRedBuster]

I'm frustrated in that I can't find a post I read a while ago.

 

Somewhere on here, someone wrote a post basically claiming that the only thing Christianity and the Bible are is an attempt of a few people to control the masses.

 

At first when I read it, I didn't think anything of it. However, I have been pondering it ever since.

 

The question I have to whomever wrote that, what do you mean? How does the Bible in it's very basic sense a form of mass population control to do what a few people want them to do?

 

Now, I am not talking about modern day Christianity and conservative zealots that thump the bible and claim everything is wicked and horrible. I'm talking about the very basic teachings of Christ. His teachings were very simple. To follow his example. What was his example? To serve others especially the less fortunate ones. To not judge because we as humans are not the ultimate judge. To love and care for one another and live peacefully.

 

A perfect example of this is when he washed his disciples' feet. What that taught them was that they are to serve others and make the world a better place for others.

 

A modern day perfect example of this is Mother Theresa. What an amazing woman that is probably (at least well known to the world) the best example in modern day of what Christ was teaching us.

 

Now, if you were going to sit down right now and write a book and the sole purpose of this book is to control the masses to get them to do what you want them to do....wouldn't the story line be very very different?

[BigRedBuster]

 

And...at this point, I get back to the question I have in my mind and have discussed on here many times, if there is no God or deeper meaning in life than just a bunch of random chemical reactions, why even warm people about climatological disasters? That massive chemical reaction that ultimately would destroy the Earth would really have no more meaning than what happens with yeast when I bake bread. All it is is a continuation of an extremely long chemical process.

 

 

 

Because life without a deity isn't fatalistic. I love my family, I want to live to see grandchildren someday, I want to see what happens next, I'm curious... none of those things are dependent on a deity.

 

This line of thinking says that, without god/an afterlife, this life isn't worth living. That's why I came up with the Prom/After Prom analogy. This life (the Prom) is worth living in its own right. Whether outrageous fortune deals us slings & arrows or not.

 

I don't view it as that it would "not be worth living". I would view it as..."hey, I'm having fun while I'm here. Might as well keep going. But, if Lincoln all of a sudden explodes and everyone dies....that event is really meaningless.

 

To me, if there is no God, life would be more like Dr. Spock than Captain Kirk. The logical way of living would be emotionally blank. Spock wanted to keep living. But, the emotions of life were meaningless to him.

[zoogs]

And...at this point, I get back to the question I have in my mind and have discussed on here many times, if there is no God or deeper meaning in life than just a bunch of random chemical reactions, why even warm people about climatological disasters? That massive chemical reaction that ultimately would destroy the Earth would really have no more meaning than what happens with yeast when I bake bread. All it is is a continuation of an extremely long chemical process.

I think that's an interesting question, BRB, and maybe we're broaching existentialism here, which is a very interesting area of philosophy, from Kierkegaard to Satre and so on. What's the point, ultimately? Someday it seems likely that humanity won't be around and there will be nobody and nothing left to remember us. In the meantime we still have this domain and the capacity to enrich (or desolate) the experience for ourselves, and others.

[ZRod]

Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Mark 13:13

 

and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22

 

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. - Matthew 24:9

 

"But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated because of my name. - Luke 21:16-17They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. - John 15:21

 

People hate Jesus, people hate Christianity and for what? Not because of suicide extremists like Islam has...but because Christianity teaches that people will have to have accountability toward God, and that scares the crap out of some of you. Thats why walls have been built up in your minds to reject any potential proof of faith. I can't change your minds, but I suggest reading about biblical prophecy. If you truly want evidence just look at prophecy in the Bible. I hope that you do research biblical prophecy, because if you don't...you have become very closed off to the idea of God.

For the record, the ending of the Bible in revelation perfectly correlates with the Islamic end of times but only as polar opposites. Christianity's Anti-Christ is the exact same person as the Islamic Imam Mahdi (Sp?)

Who is building up walls and is truly scared? The ones open to ideas outside their comfort zone, or the one who follows strict law for fear of eternal damnation?

 

Just because you don't follow a religion doesn't mean you lack accountability or that life is meaningless to you.

[zoogs]

Somewhere on here, someone wrote a post basically claiming that the only thing Christianity and the Bible are is an attempt of a few people to control the masses.

 

At first when I read it, I didn't think anything of it. However, I have been pondering it ever since.

 

The question I have to whomever wrote that, what do you mean? How does the Bible in it's very basic sense a form of mass population control to do what a few people want them to do?

Well, movements hold sway over people. Whenever you talk about a doctrine, or a calling, or a teaching, you're talking about influencing people to behave in a certain way.

 

The very nature of a religion such as this is to try to instill a deep and permanent hold on as large a population as possible. The benefits are clear; common ethics, unity, as well as survival against outside foes with a foreign set of beliefs.

 

The basic teachings you name are indeed very simple.

 

To follow his example. What was his example? To serve others especially the less fortunate ones. To not judge because we as humans are not the ultimate judge. To love and care for one another and live peacefully.

They are also not very extraordinary, nor unique or innovative. That's perfectly fine by me. But then it gets innovative. He is the sinless son of God, and the primary teaching is to follow. Actually, did he even teach that people should be Christians? Or did that spring up around him as a human social instrument? (Speaking of this sort of, Life of Brian. So good.)

 

Follow good examples. Don't follow bad examples. Have some basic, core values (such as compassion, empathy, or the principle of reciprocity). This is not to be Christian or to be religious so much as it is to be human, and I think every functioning society in our history has imposed these expectations one way or another.

 

Religion though, certainly is one way. But it comes with some extra stuff (my chief beef being the evident result of groups of people who see themselves as so distinct and foreign to one another). If it is a human creation, it's subject to the flaws of its human creators -- yet asks its followers to reject that possibility amidst their leap of faith.

 

Now, if you were going to sit down right now and write a book and the sole purpose of this book is to control the masses to get them to do what you want them to do....wouldn't the story line be very very different?

I think human history is filled with people trying to move other people to do certain things. Plenty of other things have been written (and to great effect). Few to date have been as compelling or have had as much staying power. But that does not make it divine, nor the best possible tool we could develop for ourselves.

[Whistlebritches]

Now, if you were going to sit down right now and write a book and the sole purpose of this book is to control the masses to get them to do what you want them to do....wouldn't the story line be very very different?

That's basically what Scientology is if I'm not mistaken.

[Redux]

 

Verbatim, if there is a set path for all of us and our destiny is predetermined, then we are all following it as we should.

Those who have faith were meant to, and those who question that faith were meant to as well. Does that mean that before birth non believers were born simply to fill space only to be cast into hell upon death.

That alone is reason enough to question religion.

 

This thing about predestination comes from places in the bible that say your name is written in the book of life (or not) before you were born. How can that not be predestination? I've grappled with this question. But it’s really not a question of predestination. I’d say it’s more of a question about what omniscience means. Forget about the book of life for a moment. What if we actually DO have freedom of choice—that is, we can decide our own fate? I think that’s the way it is. I can choose to goof around on Huskerboard all afternoon. Or I can choose to take my deer rifle and climb up a clock tower. The choice is mine. The book of life merely records, ahead of time, what fate we choose for ourselves. It’s like when you were a kid and you held your hand behind your back and asked some person to guess how many fingers you were holding up. If you did this twenty times, and the person guessed correctly twenty times, it wouldn’t mean that you lacked the choice of which fingers to hold up. It would simply mean that somehow the person knew ahead of time what fingers you were going to hold up, regardless of what you chose. Maybe that person could tell the future. Or maybe the person just knew a lot about you and your propensity to select a certain number of fingers to hold up next. So if God has your name written in his book of life, it’s because he’s omniscient and knows what you are going to choose. Or perhaps he lives in a realm outside of our linear time, and he can see in our future, present and past. In any case, I don't think his book of life means that he controls what you do. I think we have freedom of choice inasmuch as we can control our own actions and beliefs. /JMHO

 

 

 

Does that mean that before birth non believers were born simply to fill space only to be cast into hell upon death.

 

Would you prefer that he only created an earth and filled it with people who did exactly as he wanted?

Essentially we are getting into a chicken or the egg argument here. If all life is predetermined then God knows the outcome. If God knows the outcome it is because he set it in course. If we have choices but god knows what we choose ahead of time why create us at all? By creating life God chooses our outcome from the get go right? He creates us, we act accordingly to his will, he dislikes our actions yet created us anyway. Quite the confounding idea is it not?

[Scratchtown]

 

 

Verbatim, if there is a set path for all of us and our destiny is predetermined, then we are all following it as we should.

Those who have faith were meant to, and those who question that faith were meant to as well. Does that mean that before birth non believers were born simply to fill space only to be cast into hell upon death.

That alone is reason enough to question religion.

This thing about predestination comes from places in the bible that say your name is written in the book of life (or not) before you were born. How can that not be predestination? I've grappled with this question. But it’s really not a question of predestination. I’d say it’s more of a question about what omniscience means. Forget about the book of life for a moment. What if we actually DO have freedom of choice—that is, we can decide our own fate? I think that’s the way it is. I can choose to goof around on Huskerboard all afternoon. Or I can choose to take my deer rifle and climb up a clock tower. The choice is mine. The book of life merely records, ahead of time, what fate we choose for ourselves. It’s like when you were a kid and you held your hand behind your back and asked some person to guess how many fingers you were holding up. If you did this twenty times, and the person guessed correctly twenty times, it wouldn’t mean that you lacked the choice of which fingers to hold up. It would simply mean that somehow the person knew ahead of time what fingers you were going to hold up, regardless of what you chose. Maybe that person could tell the future. Or maybe the person just knew a lot about you and your propensity to select a certain number of fingers to hold up next. So if God has your name written in his book of life, it’s because he’s omniscient and knows what you are going to choose. Or perhaps he lives in a realm outside of our linear time, and he can see in our future, present and past. In any case, I don't think his book of life means that he controls what you do. I think we have freedom of choice inasmuch as we can control our own actions and beliefs. /JMHO

 

 

 

Does that mean that before birth non believers were born simply to fill space only to be cast into hell upon death.

 

Would you prefer that he only created an earth and filled it with people who did exactly as he wanted?

Essentially we are getting into a chicken or the egg argument here. If all life is predetermined then God knows the outcome. If God knows the outcome it is because he set it in course. If we have choices but god knows what we choose ahead of time why create us at all? By creating life God chooses our outcome from the get go right? He creates us, we act accordingly to his will, he dislikes our actions yet created us anyway. Quite the confounding idea is it not?

 

As a believer I have often asked myself the question "Why did God create human life and angels in the first place?"

 

Was God bored? Or are we playing a game? Nothing will change my mind about God = Jesus = Holy Spirit and that I take the Bible as God's divine word. However, not being able to comprehend the question of "why?" on either side of the fence is quite disturbing. I mean who wouldn't want to know definitively one way or the other?

[NUance]

 

 

Verbatim, if there is a set path for all of us and our destiny is predetermined, then we are all following it as we should.

Those who have faith were meant to, and those who question that faith were meant to as well. Does that mean that before birth non believers were born simply to fill space only to be cast into hell upon death.

That alone is reason enough to question religion.

This thing about predestination comes from places in the bible that say your name is written in the book of life (or not) before you were born. How can that not be predestination? I've grappled with this question. But it’s really not a question of predestination. I’d say it’s more of a question about what omniscience means. Forget about the book of life for a moment. What if we actually DO have freedom of choice—that is, we can decide our own fate? I think that’s the way it is. I can choose to goof around on Huskerboard all afternoon. Or I can choose to take my deer rifle and climb up a clock tower. The choice is mine. The book of life merely records, ahead of time, what fate we choose for ourselves. It’s like when you were a kid and you held your hand behind your back and asked some person to guess how many fingers you were holding up. If you did this twenty times, and the person guessed correctly twenty times, it wouldn’t mean that you lacked the choice of which fingers to hold up. It would simply mean that somehow the person knew ahead of time what fingers you were going to hold up, regardless of what you chose. Maybe that person could tell the future. Or maybe the person just knew a lot about you and your propensity to select a certain number of fingers to hold up next. So if God has your name written in his book of life, it’s because he’s omniscient and knows what you are going to choose. Or perhaps he lives in a realm outside of our linear time, and he can see in our future, present and past. In any case, I don't think his book of life means that he controls what you do. I think we have freedom of choice inasmuch as we can control our own actions and beliefs. /JMHO

 

 

 

Does that mean that before birth non believers were born simply to fill space only to be cast into hell upon death.

 

Would you prefer that he only created an earth and filled it with people who did exactly as he wanted?

Essentially we are getting into a chicken or the egg argument here. If all life is predetermined then God knows the outcome. If God knows the outcome it is because he set it in course. If we have choices but god knows what we choose ahead of time why create us at all? By creating life God chooses our outcome from the get go right? He creates us, we act accordingly to his will, he dislikes our actions yet created us anyway. Quite the confounding idea is it not?

 

 

Yeah, it's a chicken and the egg thing alright. And THAT is why I grapple with this question. I don't want to give you the impression that I have the answer for it. My post above is just where I'm at right now in thinking about this. And it's a work in progress.

[Redux]

Completely understandable posts from both of you. That question is probably what drew me away. Why are we here if we are capable and or meant for such evil? If there is a grand plan, why make so many suffer to see it through if God is all powerful? Why not skip the plagues of mankind and get to it? Obviously we cannot know.

 

I just feel that the day and age we live in it is time for Christianity to get an overhaul. Faith can be a good thing but a lot of the old views are outdated.

[TGHusker]

 

For me, it's not a matter of faith in any sort of belief as to how we got here, because I don't hold any specific belief. At this point, I'm content to simply say, "I don't know".

That's where I'm at. I engage in this discussion not because I'm trying to sway opinion one way or the other, but because I find the topic fascinating, as much from this side of the aisle as the other. I don't know the answers, but I can throw out probabilities from what we do know. I'm more interested in Truth than anything. If that turns out to be the Christian god, groovy. If it turns out to be no god, groovy. If it turns out to be Zen Buddhism... meh. Less groovy, but OK.

 

Good post Knapp. - I like the "less groovy' part

[BigRedBuster]

 

Somewhere on here, someone wrote a post basically claiming that the only thing Christianity and the Bible are is an attempt of a few people to control the masses.

 

At first when I read it, I didn't think anything of it. However, I have been pondering it ever since.

 

The question I have to whomever wrote that, what do you mean? How does the Bible in it's very basic sense a form of mass population control to do what a few people want them to do?

Well, movements hold sway over people. Whenever you talk about a doctrine, or a calling, or a teaching, you're talking about influencing people to behave in a certain way.

 

The very nature of a religion such as this is to try to instill a deep and permanent hold on as large a population as possible. The benefits are clear; common ethics, unity, as well as survival against outside foes with a foreign set of beliefs.

 

The basic teachings you name are indeed very simple.

 

To follow his example. What was his example? To serve others especially the less fortunate ones. To not judge because we as humans are not the ultimate judge. To love and care for one another and live peacefully.

They are also not very extraordinary, nor unique or innovative. That's perfectly fine by me. But then it gets innovative. He is the sinless son of God, and the primary teaching is to follow. Actually, did he even teach that people should be Christians? Or did that spring up around him as a human social instrument? (Speaking of this sort of, Life of Brian. So good.)

 

Follow good examples. Don't follow bad examples. Have some basic, core values (such as compassion, empathy, or the principle of reciprocity). This is not to be Christian or to be religious so much as it is to be human, and I think every functioning society in our history has imposed these expectations one way or another.

 

Religion though, certainly is one way. But it comes with some extra stuff (my chief beef being the evident result of groups of people who see themselves as so distinct and foreign to one another). If it is a human creation, it's subject to the flaws of its human creators -- yet asks its followers to reject that possibility amidst their leap of faith.

 

Now, if you were going to sit down right now and write a book and the sole purpose of this book is to control the masses to get them to do what you want them to do....wouldn't the story line be very very different?

I think human history is filled with people trying to move other people to do certain things. Plenty of other things have been written (and to great effect). Few to date have been as compelling or have had as much staying power. But that does not make it divine, nor the best possible tool we could develop for ourselves.

 

 

 

In my opinion, much of what you wrote is about what humans have done with Christianity. I'm specifically talking about the Bible and what it tells us about how we should live. The post I was referring to was implying that it was written by a bunch of people to do nothing but control the masses and make them do what they wanted.

 

I'm baffled by that. Yes, you can say having compassion and empathy is just "being human" but then why do so many people not have that?

 

If the Bible is this horrible document that is nothing more than an attempt to control us, I fail to see the harm in humans following what it teaches and I fail to see why a truly compassionate person would have a problem with someone else following what the Bible tells us to do.

[Redux]

I think the intentions of the Bible are good. It is just in need of an update.

[BigRedBuster]

I think the intentions of the Bible are good. It is just in need of an update.

I think the intentions of the Bible are good. Most Christians just need to start living the way it teaches instead of using it as a crutch for all of their stupid and ridiculous views of the world.