The Repub Debate

[TGHusker]

 

 

Bril,

 

Were you in the process of contemplating a response to this question?

 

Thanks,

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

 

Hey, as I stated earlier, I think this is a fair question and criticism. I honestly think they have poor Congressoinal leadership and Boehner and McConnell must go. I think there are way too many career policians in Congress that no longer know how to compromise and get results.

 

time for term limits

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

Bril,

 

Were you in the process of contemplating a response to this question?

 

Thanks,

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

 

Hey, as I stated earlier, I think this is a fair question and criticism. I honestly think they have poor Congressoinal leadership and Boehner and McConnell must go. I think there are way too many career policians in Congress that no longer know how to compromise and get results.

 

 

 

I personally think it goes much deeper than that. I think the Republicans have backed themselves in a corner that they can't get out of without admitting they were wrong at some point in the game.

 

like I said, pretty much everyone realizes something needs to drastically change as far as health care. The status quo was so screwed up that it was a detriment to the economy and the people who tried to use the system.

 

So, in the 90s there were two programs proposed.

 

a) Single payer plan = Republicans basically demonized this as socialism and Hillary was taking over private industry....bla bla bla....

 

b) Individual mandate that people must purchase health care insurance and a market place would be put in place for individuals to access insurance policies and price them so they could be better consumers.

 

Well, they had already demonized (a). (B) was put in place and now they have demonized the left for putting this in place and claim it's the biggest socialistic take over of private industry in our lifetime...bla bla bla.....(Total BS BTW).

 

What other options do they have to change healthcare? It's the government that has to make the changes. The healthcare industry is not going to make the changes because they are making so much friggen money off of people being sick it's incredible. BUT, the Republicans have positioned themselves so that they think any government involvement is socialistic and destruction of our way of life.

 

Now....here is where the Republicans and conservatives in general have been so friggen stupid. Yes...STUPID. The ACA is in place and it's not going anywhere. No matter if they want to admit it or not, the Republicans at one time supported the main parts of the ACA.

 

So...instead of wasting everyone's stinking time and money trying to act all pompous ( and insulting our intelligence) and voting close to 50 times to repeal the ACA, why didn't they say...hey....the idea is not a bad idea because we supposed it at one time. BUT, it's a bad bill because of ABC. We think we could make it better by doing XYZ.

 

THAT would have gained them so much credibility in this issue that people from both sides would be actually taking them serious in this next election. But, instead they just plain look dumb and they deserve every bit of it.

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

 

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

 

Dude....step away from the Koolaid tap for a while.

 

As for my "transformation. I never suggested that conservatives are the only ones that have extremes. I'm obviously not a Democrat for a reason. I'm an independent. I used to sound just like you. I thought....well, that side is doing XYZ so we need to do it too. The ends justify the means. Two wrongs make a right.

 

I finally stepped back and said ENOUGH!!!! Why should I support a group that feeds me nothing but a bunch or propaganda and drink it up as fast as I can simply because the other side does it too?

 

Shouldn't we as voters be revolting against that instead of supporting it? Don't you actually want the truth instead of being fed a long line of BS?

 

So....we get to your statement of "Obama is the most partisan President....". Ummm....no. The partisanship is from both sides. Obama started his Presidency blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything under the sun. You are right about that. But, the Republicans have no moral high ground in this with their constant crap about him not being an American or him being Muslim or whatever the latest attack is that is so ridiculous that smart people should be able to see through it.

 

Americans have a major problem. Notice I said Americans. Not Conservatives or Liberals. I said Americans. With the media the way it is on TV, radio or on line, people no longer listen to opposing views with an open mind. They drink up whatever media agrees with them (no matter if it is actually true or not) and then go on the attack. When you sit back and watch from the outside looking in, it really is a scary situation that I personally feel is going to end badly.

 

So...hey.....I know exactly how you feel right now. I used to be there. The problem is that this country would be better off if more people would revolt against the media like they do against opposing politicians.

 

 

I don't think you are getting it by suggesting I'm drinking some Kool-aid or implying I get my news from Rush Limbaugh or someone like that. I have NEVER listened to more than 5 minutes of Rush as I just don't like someone telling me how to think. I've said repeatedly I don't like right-wing radio either, but I do have core center-right principles I have always held since forming my opinions in college. I actually get most of my news by reading the many items on realclearpolitics (both left and right righters) as well as just reading regular news stories.

 

So, to put you on the spot, since you are completely Independent, who are you leaning toward voting for in 2016 given the 20+ candidates in the race from both sides?

 

At this point I am not supporting anyone. I'm listening to both sides. Bernie Sanders bothers me on a lot of levels BUT, I like his desire to get money out of politics. I think that is extremely important and it is what ultimately causes one hell of a lot of problems in this country. To my knowledge, the Republicans have no desire to change anything on this issue. So, I have to ask myself am I willing to vote Democrat for the first time in my life in the Presidential election on this one issue and then go throw up at the thought of voting for everything else? No way in hell I could vote for Hillary. Is there a Republican that I can stomach.

 

As for the Republican candidates, I would like to learn more about Ben Carson. I like people who were successful NOT in politics and come to the table with good ideas. I only watched a little bit of the debate and he seemed very smart and reasonable in his answers that I saw. Donald Trump is an idiot and an embarrassment to the country and just needs to go away. The rest seem like career politicians that I'm not too excited about.

[TGHusker]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

 

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

 

Dude....step away from the Koolaid tap for a while.

 

As for my "transformation. I never suggested that conservatives are the only ones that have extremes. I'm obviously not a Democrat for a reason. I'm an independent. I used to sound just like you. I thought....well, that side is doing XYZ so we need to do it too. The ends justify the means. Two wrongs make a right.

 

I finally stepped back and said ENOUGH!!!! Why should I support a group that feeds me nothing but a bunch or propaganda and drink it up as fast as I can simply because the other side does it too?

 

Shouldn't we as voters be revolting against that instead of supporting it? Don't you actually want the truth instead of being fed a long line of BS?

 

So....we get to your statement of "Obama is the most partisan President....". Ummm....no. The partisanship is from both sides. Obama started his Presidency blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything under the sun. You are right about that. But, the Republicans have no moral high ground in this with their constant crap about him not being an American or him being Muslim or whatever the latest attack is that is so ridiculous that smart people should be able to see through it.

 

Americans have a major problem. Notice I said Americans. Not Conservatives or Liberals. I said Americans. With the media the way it is on TV, radio or on line, people no longer listen to opposing views with an open mind. They drink up whatever media agrees with them (no matter if it is actually true or not) and then go on the attack. When you sit back and watch from the outside looking in, it really is a scary situation that I personally feel is going to end badly.

 

So...hey.....I know exactly how you feel right now. I used to be there. The problem is that this country would be better off if more people would revolt against the media like they do against opposing politicians.

 

 

I don't think you are getting it by suggesting I'm drinking some Kool-aid or implying I get my news from Rush Limbaugh or someone like that. I have NEVER listened to more than 5 minutes of Rush as I just don't like someone telling me how to think. I've said repeatedly I don't like right-wing radio either, but I do have core center-right principles I have always held since forming my opinions in college. I actually get most of my news by reading the many items on realclearpolitics (both left and right righters) as well as just reading regular news stories.

 

So, to put you on the spot, since you are completely Independent, who are you leaning toward voting for in 2016 given the 20+ candidates in the race from both sides?

 

At this point I am not supporting anyone. I'm listening to both sides. Bernie Sanders bothers me on a lot of levels BUT, I like his desire to get money out of politics. I think that is extremely important and it is what ultimately causes one hell of a lot of problems in this country. To my knowledge, the Republicans have no desire to change anything on this issue. So, I have to ask myself am I willing to vote Democrat for the first time in my life in the Presidential election on this one issue and then go throw up at the thought of voting for everything else? No way in hell I could vote for Hillary. Is there a Republican that I can stomach.

 

As for the Republican candidates, I would like to learn more about Ben Carson. I like people who were successful NOT in politics and come to the table with good ideas. I only watched a little bit of the debate and he seemed very smart and reasonable in his answers that I saw. Donald Trump is an idiot and an embarrassment to the country and just needs to go away. The rest seem like career politicians that I'm not too excited about.

 

I think the repubs would support getting money out (or they should) if it included union dues, teacher unions, govt workers unions, etc - all of those left leaning organizations that have given for decades. So if we want to take Bernie at his word, he should be insisting (and maybe he is) that these left leaning organizations be limited as well as super pacs. Not sure how this all works out - only the self financing wealthy will be able to run or an individual has to drum up an awful lot of individual donors.

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

 

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

 

Dude....step away from the Koolaid tap for a while.

 

As for my "transformation. I never suggested that conservatives are the only ones that have extremes. I'm obviously not a Democrat for a reason. I'm an independent. I used to sound just like you. I thought....well, that side is doing XYZ so we need to do it too. The ends justify the means. Two wrongs make a right.

 

I finally stepped back and said ENOUGH!!!! Why should I support a group that feeds me nothing but a bunch or propaganda and drink it up as fast as I can simply because the other side does it too?

 

Shouldn't we as voters be revolting against that instead of supporting it? Don't you actually want the truth instead of being fed a long line of BS?

 

So....we get to your statement of "Obama is the most partisan President....". Ummm....no. The partisanship is from both sides. Obama started his Presidency blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything under the sun. You are right about that. But, the Republicans have no moral high ground in this with their constant crap about him not being an American or him being Muslim or whatever the latest attack is that is so ridiculous that smart people should be able to see through it.

 

Americans have a major problem. Notice I said Americans. Not Conservatives or Liberals. I said Americans. With the media the way it is on TV, radio or on line, people no longer listen to opposing views with an open mind. They drink up whatever media agrees with them (no matter if it is actually true or not) and then go on the attack. When you sit back and watch from the outside looking in, it really is a scary situation that I personally feel is going to end badly.

 

So...hey.....I know exactly how you feel right now. I used to be there. The problem is that this country would be better off if more people would revolt against the media like they do against opposing politicians.

 

 

I don't think you are getting it by suggesting I'm drinking some Kool-aid or implying I get my news from Rush Limbaugh or someone like that. I have NEVER listened to more than 5 minutes of Rush as I just don't like someone telling me how to think. I've said repeatedly I don't like right-wing radio either, but I do have core center-right principles I have always held since forming my opinions in college. I actually get most of my news by reading the many items on realclearpolitics (both left and right righters) as well as just reading regular news stories.

 

So, to put you on the spot, since you are completely Independent, who are you leaning toward voting for in 2016 given the 20+ candidates in the race from both sides?

 

At this point I am not supporting anyone. I'm listening to both sides. Bernie Sanders bothers me on a lot of levels BUT, I like his desire to get money out of politics. I think that is extremely important and it is what ultimately causes one hell of a lot of problems in this country. To my knowledge, the Republicans have no desire to change anything on this issue. So, I have to ask myself am I willing to vote Democrat for the first time in my life in the Presidential election on this one issue and then go throw up at the thought of voting for everything else? No way in hell I could vote for Hillary. Is there a Republican that I can stomach.

 

As for the Republican candidates, I would like to learn more about Ben Carson. I like people who were successful NOT in politics and come to the table with good ideas. I only watched a little bit of the debate and he seemed very smart and reasonable in his answers that I saw. Donald Trump is an idiot and an embarrassment to the country and just needs to go away. The rest seem like career politicians that I'm not too excited about.

 

I think the repubs would support getting money out (or they should) if it included union dues, teacher unions, govt workers unions, etc - all of those left leaning organizations that have given for decades. So if we want to take Bernie at his word, he should be insisting (and maybe he is) that these left leaning organizations be limited as well as super pacs. Not sure how this all works out - only the self financing wealthy will be able to run or an individual has to drum up an awful lot of individual donors.

 

You're very very correct on that. If big companies aren't allowed to donate then other organizations shouldn't be able to donate also. The Dems will never go for that.

 

There's one theory I have always been interested in for Presidential elections but I'm not sure how practical it is and how the logistics would work.

 

If you had government funded elections and say the candidates were all given 100 million dollars to run a campaign. If you go over that amount, you're out of money. You would be able to see how a candidate can be efficient with other people's money and work with a budget. You could see how well he organizes people to get things done. The candidate then wouldn't also be motivated to give favors for money.

 

But...like I said, it's one of those things that in theory sounds great but making it work would be another thing all together.

[HuskerNation1]

 

 

 

Bril,

 

Were you in the process of contemplating a response to this question?

 

Thanks,

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

 

Hey, as I stated earlier, I think this is a fair question and criticism. I honestly think they have poor Congressoinal leadership and Boehner and McConnell must go. I think there are way too many career policians in Congress that no longer know how to compromise and get results.

 

time for term limits

 

Hey, I agree with that. I live in the most corrupt state in the country where we've had many governors go to Prison (Illinois). Progressive policies here have made Illinois the most bankrupt state in the country, and yes, worse than California. For the first time in 12 years a Republican governor was elected, and is pushing term limits and fiscal cuts, but Michael Madigan the the Democratic legislature refuses to make any cuts, and refused to back term limits.

 

If we didn't do term limits, how about making a requirement for no consecutive terms for the House as a start. They are only elected every 2 years, and spend half of their time in office campaigning and raising money. If they didn't have to worry about getting re-elected right away, they could serve the full 2-year term, and make the right choices of this country that won't be thrown back at them immediately.

[HuskerNation1]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

 

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

 

Dude....step away from the Koolaid tap for a while.

 

As for my "transformation. I never suggested that conservatives are the only ones that have extremes. I'm obviously not a Democrat for a reason. I'm an independent. I used to sound just like you. I thought....well, that side is doing XYZ so we need to do it too. The ends justify the means. Two wrongs make a right.

 

I finally stepped back and said ENOUGH!!!! Why should I support a group that feeds me nothing but a bunch or propaganda and drink it up as fast as I can simply because the other side does it too?

 

Shouldn't we as voters be revolting against that instead of supporting it? Don't you actually want the truth instead of being fed a long line of BS?

 

So....we get to your statement of "Obama is the most partisan President....". Ummm....no. The partisanship is from both sides. Obama started his Presidency blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything under the sun. You are right about that. But, the Republicans have no moral high ground in this with their constant crap about him not being an American or him being Muslim or whatever the latest attack is that is so ridiculous that smart people should be able to see through it.

 

Americans have a major problem. Notice I said Americans. Not Conservatives or Liberals. I said Americans. With the media the way it is on TV, radio or on line, people no longer listen to opposing views with an open mind. They drink up whatever media agrees with them (no matter if it is actually true or not) and then go on the attack. When you sit back and watch from the outside looking in, it really is a scary situation that I personally feel is going to end badly.

 

So...hey.....I know exactly how you feel right now. I used to be there. The problem is that this country would be better off if more people would revolt against the media like they do against opposing politicians.

 

 

I don't think you are getting it by suggesting I'm drinking some Kool-aid or implying I get my news from Rush Limbaugh or someone like that. I have NEVER listened to more than 5 minutes of Rush as I just don't like someone telling me how to think. I've said repeatedly I don't like right-wing radio either, but I do have core center-right principles I have always held since forming my opinions in college. I actually get most of my news by reading the many items on realclearpolitics (both left and right righters) as well as just reading regular news stories.

 

So, to put you on the spot, since you are completely Independent, who are you leaning toward voting for in 2016 given the 20+ candidates in the race from both sides?

 

At this point I am not supporting anyone. I'm listening to both sides. Bernie Sanders bothers me on a lot of levels BUT, I like his desire to get money out of politics. I think that is extremely important and it is what ultimately causes one hell of a lot of problems in this country. To my knowledge, the Republicans have no desire to change anything on this issue. So, I have to ask myself am I willing to vote Democrat for the first time in my life in the Presidential election on this one issue and then go throw up at the thought of voting for everything else? No way in hell I could vote for Hillary. Is there a Republican that I can stomach.

 

As for the Republican candidates, I would like to learn more about Ben Carson. I like people who were successful NOT in politics and come to the table with good ideas. I only watched a little bit of the debate and he seemed very smart and reasonable in his answers that I saw. Donald Trump is an idiot and an embarrassment to the country and just needs to go away. The rest seem like career politicians that I'm not too excited about.

 

I think the repubs would support getting money out (or they should) if it included union dues, teacher unions, govt workers unions, etc - all of those left leaning organizations that have given for decades. So if we want to take Bernie at his word, he should be insisting (and maybe he is) that these left leaning organizations be limited as well as super pacs. Not sure how this all works out - only the self financing wealthy will be able to run or an individual has to drum up an awful lot of individual donors.

 

You're very very correct on that. If big companies aren't allowed to donate then other organizations shouldn't be able to donate also. The Dems will never go for that.

 

There's one theory I have always been interested in for Presidential elections but I'm not sure how practical it is and how the logistics would work.

 

If you had government funded elections and say the candidates were all given 100 million dollars to run a campaign. If you go over that amount, you're out of money. You would be able to see how a candidate can be efficient with other people's money and work with a budget. You could see how well he organizes people to get things done. The candidate then wouldn't also be motivated to give favors for money.

 

But...like I said, it's one of those things that in theory sounds great but making it work would be another thing all together.

 

 

I agree with you. If we truly want a fair playing field, then both money and political coverage must be fair for all candidates. On the money side, this would include all sorts of unions that give heavily to Dems. Also, while I know Fox and conservative radio leans to the right, most Americans get their news from the mainstream networks, or articles posted on yahoo and their website homepages, and those groups lean to the left. I'm not sure how you execute a fair media model, but if you truly want the most pure and fair election process, money and media have to be fixed.

[TGHusker]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

 

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

 

Dude....step away from the Koolaid tap for a while.

 

As for my "transformation. I never suggested that conservatives are the only ones that have extremes. I'm obviously not a Democrat for a reason. I'm an independent. I used to sound just like you. I thought....well, that side is doing XYZ so we need to do it too. The ends justify the means. Two wrongs make a right.

 

I finally stepped back and said ENOUGH!!!! Why should I support a group that feeds me nothing but a bunch or propaganda and drink it up as fast as I can simply because the other side does it too?

 

Shouldn't we as voters be revolting against that instead of supporting it? Don't you actually want the truth instead of being fed a long line of BS?

 

So....we get to your statement of "Obama is the most partisan President....". Ummm....no. The partisanship is from both sides. Obama started his Presidency blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything under the sun. You are right about that. But, the Republicans have no moral high ground in this with their constant crap about him not being an American or him being Muslim or whatever the latest attack is that is so ridiculous that smart people should be able to see through it.

 

Americans have a major problem. Notice I said Americans. Not Conservatives or Liberals. I said Americans. With the media the way it is on TV, radio or on line, people no longer listen to opposing views with an open mind. They drink up whatever media agrees with them (no matter if it is actually true or not) and then go on the attack. When you sit back and watch from the outside looking in, it really is a scary situation that I personally feel is going to end badly.

 

So...hey.....I know exactly how you feel right now. I used to be there. The problem is that this country would be better off if more people would revolt against the media like they do against opposing politicians.

 

 

I don't think you are getting it by suggesting I'm drinking some Kool-aid or implying I get my news from Rush Limbaugh or someone like that. I have NEVER listened to more than 5 minutes of Rush as I just don't like someone telling me how to think. I've said repeatedly I don't like right-wing radio either, but I do have core center-right principles I have always held since forming my opinions in college. I actually get most of my news by reading the many items on realclearpolitics (both left and right righters) as well as just reading regular news stories.

 

So, to put you on the spot, since you are completely Independent, who are you leaning toward voting for in 2016 given the 20+ candidates in the race from both sides?

 

At this point I am not supporting anyone. I'm listening to both sides. Bernie Sanders bothers me on a lot of levels BUT, I like his desire to get money out of politics. I think that is extremely important and it is what ultimately causes one hell of a lot of problems in this country. To my knowledge, the Republicans have no desire to change anything on this issue. So, I have to ask myself am I willing to vote Democrat for the first time in my life in the Presidential election on this one issue and then go throw up at the thought of voting for everything else? No way in hell I could vote for Hillary. Is there a Republican that I can stomach.

 

As for the Republican candidates, I would like to learn more about Ben Carson. I like people who were successful NOT in politics and come to the table with good ideas. I only watched a little bit of the debate and he seemed very smart and reasonable in his answers that I saw. Donald Trump is an idiot and an embarrassment to the country and just needs to go away. The rest seem like career politicians that I'm not too excited about.

 

I think the repubs would support getting money out (or they should) if it included union dues, teacher unions, govt workers unions, etc - all of those left leaning organizations that have given for decades. So if we want to take Bernie at his word, he should be insisting (and maybe he is) that these left leaning organizations be limited as well as super pacs. Not sure how this all works out - only the self financing wealthy will be able to run or an individual has to drum up an awful lot of individual donors.

 

You're very very correct on that. If big companies aren't allowed to donate then other organizations shouldn't be able to donate also. The Dems will never go for that.

 

There's one theory I have always been interested in for Presidential elections but I'm not sure how practical it is and how the logistics would work.

 

If you had government funded elections and say the candidates were all given 100 million dollars to run a campaign. If you go over that amount, you're out of money. You would be able to see how a candidate can be efficient with other people's money and work with a budget. You could see how well he organizes people to get things done. The candidate then wouldn't also be motivated to give favors for money.

 

But...like I said, it's one of those things that in theory sounds great but making it work would be another thing all together.

 

Yes - I've thought about that also - shows how budget minded they can be. But at what threshold of support to you give the money to the candidate - after they win the party nomination, what about 3rd party, or do we do the must have 10% of the poll support route?

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

 

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

 

Dude....step away from the Koolaid tap for a while.

 

As for my "transformation. I never suggested that conservatives are the only ones that have extremes. I'm obviously not a Democrat for a reason. I'm an independent. I used to sound just like you. I thought....well, that side is doing XYZ so we need to do it too. The ends justify the means. Two wrongs make a right.

 

I finally stepped back and said ENOUGH!!!! Why should I support a group that feeds me nothing but a bunch or propaganda and drink it up as fast as I can simply because the other side does it too?

 

Shouldn't we as voters be revolting against that instead of supporting it? Don't you actually want the truth instead of being fed a long line of BS?

 

So....we get to your statement of "Obama is the most partisan President....". Ummm....no. The partisanship is from both sides. Obama started his Presidency blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything under the sun. You are right about that. But, the Republicans have no moral high ground in this with their constant crap about him not being an American or him being Muslim or whatever the latest attack is that is so ridiculous that smart people should be able to see through it.

 

Americans have a major problem. Notice I said Americans. Not Conservatives or Liberals. I said Americans. With the media the way it is on TV, radio or on line, people no longer listen to opposing views with an open mind. They drink up whatever media agrees with them (no matter if it is actually true or not) and then go on the attack. When you sit back and watch from the outside looking in, it really is a scary situation that I personally feel is going to end badly.

 

So...hey.....I know exactly how you feel right now. I used to be there. The problem is that this country would be better off if more people would revolt against the media like they do against opposing politicians.

 

 

I don't think you are getting it by suggesting I'm drinking some Kool-aid or implying I get my news from Rush Limbaugh or someone like that. I have NEVER listened to more than 5 minutes of Rush as I just don't like someone telling me how to think. I've said repeatedly I don't like right-wing radio either, but I do have core center-right principles I have always held since forming my opinions in college. I actually get most of my news by reading the many items on realclearpolitics (both left and right righters) as well as just reading regular news stories.

 

So, to put you on the spot, since you are completely Independent, who are you leaning toward voting for in 2016 given the 20+ candidates in the race from both sides?

 

At this point I am not supporting anyone. I'm listening to both sides. Bernie Sanders bothers me on a lot of levels BUT, I like his desire to get money out of politics. I think that is extremely important and it is what ultimately causes one hell of a lot of problems in this country. To my knowledge, the Republicans have no desire to change anything on this issue. So, I have to ask myself am I willing to vote Democrat for the first time in my life in the Presidential election on this one issue and then go throw up at the thought of voting for everything else? No way in hell I could vote for Hillary. Is there a Republican that I can stomach.

 

As for the Republican candidates, I would like to learn more about Ben Carson. I like people who were successful NOT in politics and come to the table with good ideas. I only watched a little bit of the debate and he seemed very smart and reasonable in his answers that I saw. Donald Trump is an idiot and an embarrassment to the country and just needs to go away. The rest seem like career politicians that I'm not too excited about.

 

I think the repubs would support getting money out (or they should) if it included union dues, teacher unions, govt workers unions, etc - all of those left leaning organizations that have given for decades. So if we want to take Bernie at his word, he should be insisting (and maybe he is) that these left leaning organizations be limited as well as super pacs. Not sure how this all works out - only the self financing wealthy will be able to run or an individual has to drum up an awful lot of individual donors.

 

You're very very correct on that. If big companies aren't allowed to donate then other organizations shouldn't be able to donate also. The Dems will never go for that.

 

There's one theory I have always been interested in for Presidential elections but I'm not sure how practical it is and how the logistics would work.

 

If you had government funded elections and say the candidates were all given 100 million dollars to run a campaign. If you go over that amount, you're out of money. You would be able to see how a candidate can be efficient with other people's money and work with a budget. You could see how well he organizes people to get things done. The candidate then wouldn't also be motivated to give favors for money.

 

But...like I said, it's one of those things that in theory sounds great but making it work would be another thing all together.

 

 

I agree with you. If we truly want a fair playing field, then both money and political coverage must be fair for all candidates. On the money side, this would include all sorts of unions that give heavily to Dems. Also, while I know Fox and conservative radio leans to the right, most Americans get their news from the mainstream networks, or articles posted on yahoo and their website homepages, and those groups lean to the left. I'm not sure how you execute a fair media model, but if you truly want the most pure and fair election process, money and media have to be fixed.

 

Well, if media outlets were actually punished for false or misleading information, it would go a long ways. But, neither side in politics actually likes this because everyone is comfortable with their power in the media no matter what side you are on. Example...Conservatives are perfectly happy getting all their news from Fox News (even though they know it's slanted conservative ) Meanwhile, liberals are perfectly fine with that because they know liberals hate Foxnews and many times it makes conservatives actually look stupid. So, liberals have no motivation to push for punishment of Foxnews for giving out false or misleading information.

[HuskerNation1]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

 

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

 

Dude....step away from the Koolaid tap for a while.

 

As for my "transformation. I never suggested that conservatives are the only ones that have extremes. I'm obviously not a Democrat for a reason. I'm an independent. I used to sound just like you. I thought....well, that side is doing XYZ so we need to do it too. The ends justify the means. Two wrongs make a right.

 

I finally stepped back and said ENOUGH!!!! Why should I support a group that feeds me nothing but a bunch or propaganda and drink it up as fast as I can simply because the other side does it too?

 

Shouldn't we as voters be revolting against that instead of supporting it? Don't you actually want the truth instead of being fed a long line of BS?

 

So....we get to your statement of "Obama is the most partisan President....". Ummm....no. The partisanship is from both sides. Obama started his Presidency blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything under the sun. You are right about that. But, the Republicans have no moral high ground in this with their constant crap about him not being an American or him being Muslim or whatever the latest attack is that is so ridiculous that smart people should be able to see through it.

 

Americans have a major problem. Notice I said Americans. Not Conservatives or Liberals. I said Americans. With the media the way it is on TV, radio or on line, people no longer listen to opposing views with an open mind. They drink up whatever media agrees with them (no matter if it is actually true or not) and then go on the attack. When you sit back and watch from the outside looking in, it really is a scary situation that I personally feel is going to end badly.

 

So...hey.....I know exactly how you feel right now. I used to be there. The problem is that this country would be better off if more people would revolt against the media like they do against opposing politicians.

 

 

I don't think you are getting it by suggesting I'm drinking some Kool-aid or implying I get my news from Rush Limbaugh or someone like that. I have NEVER listened to more than 5 minutes of Rush as I just don't like someone telling me how to think. I've said repeatedly I don't like right-wing radio either, but I do have core center-right principles I have always held since forming my opinions in college. I actually get most of my news by reading the many items on realclearpolitics (both left and right righters) as well as just reading regular news stories.

 

So, to put you on the spot, since you are completely Independent, who are you leaning toward voting for in 2016 given the 20+ candidates in the race from both sides?

 

At this point I am not supporting anyone. I'm listening to both sides. Bernie Sanders bothers me on a lot of levels BUT, I like his desire to get money out of politics. I think that is extremely important and it is what ultimately causes one hell of a lot of problems in this country. To my knowledge, the Republicans have no desire to change anything on this issue. So, I have to ask myself am I willing to vote Democrat for the first time in my life in the Presidential election on this one issue and then go throw up at the thought of voting for everything else? No way in hell I could vote for Hillary. Is there a Republican that I can stomach.

 

As for the Republican candidates, I would like to learn more about Ben Carson. I like people who were successful NOT in politics and come to the table with good ideas. I only watched a little bit of the debate and he seemed very smart and reasonable in his answers that I saw. Donald Trump is an idiot and an embarrassment to the country and just needs to go away. The rest seem like career politicians that I'm not too excited about.

 

I think the repubs would support getting money out (or they should) if it included union dues, teacher unions, govt workers unions, etc - all of those left leaning organizations that have given for decades. So if we want to take Bernie at his word, he should be insisting (and maybe he is) that these left leaning organizations be limited as well as super pacs. Not sure how this all works out - only the self financing wealthy will be able to run or an individual has to drum up an awful lot of individual donors.

 

You're very very correct on that. If big companies aren't allowed to donate then other organizations shouldn't be able to donate also. The Dems will never go for that.

 

There's one theory I have always been interested in for Presidential elections but I'm not sure how practical it is and how the logistics would work.

 

If you had government funded elections and say the candidates were all given 100 million dollars to run a campaign. If you go over that amount, you're out of money. You would be able to see how a candidate can be efficient with other people's money and work with a budget. You could see how well he organizes people to get things done. The candidate then wouldn't also be motivated to give favors for money.

 

But...like I said, it's one of those things that in theory sounds great but making it work would be another thing all together.

 

 

I agree with you. If we truly want a fair playing field, then both money and political coverage must be fair for all candidates. On the money side, this would include all sorts of unions that give heavily to Dems. Also, while I know Fox and conservative radio leans to the right, most Americans get their news from the mainstream networks, or articles posted on yahoo and their website homepages, and those groups lean to the left. I'm not sure how you execute a fair media model, but if you truly want the most pure and fair election process, money and media have to be fixed.

 

Well, if media outlets were actually punished for false or misleading information, it would go a long ways. But, neither side in politics actually likes this because everyone is comfortable with their power in the media no matter what side you are on. Example...Conservatives are perfectly happy getting all their news from Fox News (even though they know it's slanted conservative ) Meanwhile, liberals are perfectly fine with that because they know liberals hate Foxnews and many times it makes conservatives actually look stupid. So, liberals have no motivation to push for punishment of Foxnews for giving out false or misleading information.

 

 

I don't know...Conservatives might go for this proposal if it meant they didn't have to deal with the mainstream media bias that permeates the major networks and most online sources like yahoo news. They might be happy that average non-partisan voters are finally getting fair coverage.

[BigRedBuster]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

 

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

 

Dude....step away from the Koolaid tap for a while.

 

As for my "transformation. I never suggested that conservatives are the only ones that have extremes. I'm obviously not a Democrat for a reason. I'm an independent. I used to sound just like you. I thought....well, that side is doing XYZ so we need to do it too. The ends justify the means. Two wrongs make a right.

 

I finally stepped back and said ENOUGH!!!! Why should I support a group that feeds me nothing but a bunch or propaganda and drink it up as fast as I can simply because the other side does it too?

 

Shouldn't we as voters be revolting against that instead of supporting it? Don't you actually want the truth instead of being fed a long line of BS?

 

So....we get to your statement of "Obama is the most partisan President....". Ummm....no. The partisanship is from both sides. Obama started his Presidency blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything under the sun. You are right about that. But, the Republicans have no moral high ground in this with their constant crap about him not being an American or him being Muslim or whatever the latest attack is that is so ridiculous that smart people should be able to see through it.

 

Americans have a major problem. Notice I said Americans. Not Conservatives or Liberals. I said Americans. With the media the way it is on TV, radio or on line, people no longer listen to opposing views with an open mind. They drink up whatever media agrees with them (no matter if it is actually true or not) and then go on the attack. When you sit back and watch from the outside looking in, it really is a scary situation that I personally feel is going to end badly.

 

So...hey.....I know exactly how you feel right now. I used to be there. The problem is that this country would be better off if more people would revolt against the media like they do against opposing politicians.

 

 

I don't think you are getting it by suggesting I'm drinking some Kool-aid or implying I get my news from Rush Limbaugh or someone like that. I have NEVER listened to more than 5 minutes of Rush as I just don't like someone telling me how to think. I've said repeatedly I don't like right-wing radio either, but I do have core center-right principles I have always held since forming my opinions in college. I actually get most of my news by reading the many items on realclearpolitics (both left and right righters) as well as just reading regular news stories.

 

So, to put you on the spot, since you are completely Independent, who are you leaning toward voting for in 2016 given the 20+ candidates in the race from both sides?

 

At this point I am not supporting anyone. I'm listening to both sides. Bernie Sanders bothers me on a lot of levels BUT, I like his desire to get money out of politics. I think that is extremely important and it is what ultimately causes one hell of a lot of problems in this country. To my knowledge, the Republicans have no desire to change anything on this issue. So, I have to ask myself am I willing to vote Democrat for the first time in my life in the Presidential election on this one issue and then go throw up at the thought of voting for everything else? No way in hell I could vote for Hillary. Is there a Republican that I can stomach.

 

As for the Republican candidates, I would like to learn more about Ben Carson. I like people who were successful NOT in politics and come to the table with good ideas. I only watched a little bit of the debate and he seemed very smart and reasonable in his answers that I saw. Donald Trump is an idiot and an embarrassment to the country and just needs to go away. The rest seem like career politicians that I'm not too excited about.

 

I think the repubs would support getting money out (or they should) if it included union dues, teacher unions, govt workers unions, etc - all of those left leaning organizations that have given for decades. So if we want to take Bernie at his word, he should be insisting (and maybe he is) that these left leaning organizations be limited as well as super pacs. Not sure how this all works out - only the self financing wealthy will be able to run or an individual has to drum up an awful lot of individual donors.

 

You're very very correct on that. If big companies aren't allowed to donate then other organizations shouldn't be able to donate also. The Dems will never go for that.

 

There's one theory I have always been interested in for Presidential elections but I'm not sure how practical it is and how the logistics would work.

 

If you had government funded elections and say the candidates were all given 100 million dollars to run a campaign. If you go over that amount, you're out of money. You would be able to see how a candidate can be efficient with other people's money and work with a budget. You could see how well he organizes people to get things done. The candidate then wouldn't also be motivated to give favors for money.

 

But...like I said, it's one of those things that in theory sounds great but making it work would be another thing all together.

 

 

I agree with you. If we truly want a fair playing field, then both money and political coverage must be fair for all candidates. On the money side, this would include all sorts of unions that give heavily to Dems. Also, while I know Fox and conservative radio leans to the right, most Americans get their news from the mainstream networks, or articles posted on yahoo and their website homepages, and those groups lean to the left. I'm not sure how you execute a fair media model, but if you truly want the most pure and fair election process, money and media have to be fixed.

 

Well, if media outlets were actually punished for false or misleading information, it would go a long ways. But, neither side in politics actually likes this because everyone is comfortable with their power in the media no matter what side you are on. Example...Conservatives are perfectly happy getting all their news from Fox News (even though they know it's slanted conservative ) Meanwhile, liberals are perfectly fine with that because they know liberals hate Foxnews and many times it makes conservatives actually look stupid. So, liberals have no motivation to push for punishment of Foxnews for giving out false or misleading information.

 

 

I don't know...Conservatives might go for this proposal if it meant they didn't have to deal with the mainstream media bias that permeates the major networks and most online sources like yahoo news. They might be happy that average non-partisan voters are finally getting fair coverage.

 

You do realize that a heck of a lot of that "main stream media bias" is a myth promoted by Foxnews?

[HuskerNation1]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

***SNIP***

I get my hackles up about something like the Iran Deal because this affects me and my country in a very profound and dangerous way. The crap that's coming out of GOP headquarters is motivated wholly by politics, not reason. They say they want a "better deal," but not one of these bozos bothers to say what that even means, just that it needs to be better. Better than us getting exactly what we want (Iran to not build a nuke and subject themselves to constant surveillance for fifteen years) while giving away nothing except sanction relief . . . on sanctions that we imposed and ultimately control, and whose sole purpose was to make Iran have these negotiations against their will (and they did). It's frustrating. And when you consider what the implications are if we fail to live up to the deal we agreed to, it's alarming. This is about our country, not a political party.

Oddly enough, the same tact taken on the Affordable Care Act. What a coincidence...

Wow, bringing in the ACA, the single worst piece of legislation ever passed that still is not popular to most Americans. Obama made multiple promises, including that it would help bring down health care costs, and would allow everyone to keep their doctors. Both promises have not been met.

 

Here is one of many studies showing health care costs rising across the board.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamacare-2015-higher-costs-higher-penalties/

 

Can you show me any studies that show health care costs have come down since the ACA implemented (and not the growth rate but actual costs)? This is what Obama promised.

 

Also, can you show me how the ACA is being paid for in a manner that is not increasing our national debt?

Nice attempt to defelect the point - that Republicans offer no viable alternatives in either example. And to reinforce X's point about the frustration he feels due to that lack of responsibility, note that according to the Congressional Budget Office, repealing the Affordable Care Act will increase the national debt. And that analysis was made AFTER the Republicans had selected Keith Hall as the new CBO director.

 

Hey, unlike you, I'm going to be up front and agree that the GOP has not offered a proposal with broad consensus that counters the ACA. Shame on them. With that said, they did not create the mess that the ACA is, including the false promises and the lack of financial accountability to ensure that the ACA is not contributing further to our national debt. The law should never have been put in place by Obama and the Dems to begin with. It was bad legislation that involved a completely non-transparent process that members on the left did not even know what they were voting in favor of. So the law itself, and the process to pass the law, are what makes this the worse domestic legislation I've ever seen in my lifetime.

 

Also, regarding another comment that this is a bill the GOP was in favor of, this has been a talking point on the left as an excuse to dismiss and accountability for the failures of the ACA. It was the early 1990s when HillaryCare was being discussed that a small number of Senators entertained a proposal that had some similarities to the ACA, but nothing like what actually happened. It was not an idea broadly supported by Conservatives nationwide. The experiment of Romneycare was a failure, and if such a program was not a success at the state level, why in heck would anyone want to nationalize it. As you are aware, Romneycare alone was a big reason Mitt Romney almost did not get the nomination, as Republicans were strongly against it. There were no other good candidates running in 2012 (unlike 2016 where there are many good candidates), and Romney was the best of a bad lot.

 

So in summary, the GOP needs to have a viable alternative now that the ACA is in place, but we would be much better off had Obama and the Dems not put the ACA in place to begin with.

Good job in falling for absolutely every party line argument the Republicans have put out since the 90s.

 

So, let me get this straight. To my knowledge, everyone pretty much agrees that something needs to be done with healthcare. It is way too expensive and too many people don't have access to services like they should. (if you don't agree with this, then we need to be having a way different discussion).

 

In the 90s, Hillary started pushing for a single payer plan that would take insurance companies completely out of the equation. The Republicans at the time raised hell claiming the socialist Hillary is taking over private industry and that is just plain unconstitutional and she is evil. They, in turn, come out with their own plan. That plan includes private health insurance companies and sets up markets for people to go and buy health insurance. Republicans also didn't like the idea that some people just chose not to buy health insurance and instead, when they got sick, they couldn't pay and they ended up just getting services for free or they end up in horrible financial shape with all the bills. They also didn't like the rising cost of health care. (all valid concerns in my mind)

 

A few Senators wrote the proposal but it was put out as the main opposing idea by the Republican establishment and it was also marketed as pro private industry since health insurance companies were still involved and people could choose what insurance company they wanted to use.

 

Well....Both Hillarycare and the Republican proposals failed.

 

Fast forward to now. Obama basically takes the main tenants of the Republican proposal and pushes them through to actually pass a health care bill. What does the Republican establishment do? They put on one of the most ridiculous and disgusting campaigns I have ever seen against a President claiming he is everything from simply needing to be impeached to a Muslim who was planted here when he was a child to rise up and destroy American civilization.

 

Now, let me explain since you are fairly new here. I once was a staunch Republican conservative. I consumed so much crap conservative media that I thought anything but a Republican was just flat out wrong for America. I watched everything on Foxnews. I even was one of the first listeners when Rush came on the radio.

 

This issue has been one of the main issues that has driven me from the Republican party. Very early on in the Obamacare debate something just didn't feel right to me. So, I decided to sit back and as much as possible view the debate from the outside. I quit the Republican party and registered as an Independent. What I found was an amazingly refreshing view point. The problem was, I found the conservative side of this debate and politics in general at this time in our country to be absolutely disgusting. It is an all out war against anything but a Republican and the end justifies the means.

 

I still remain pretty conservative in my views. But, The GOP flat out on the wrong path of leadership and this issue is a prime example of this. I disagree with Obama on many things and I think this bill could be improved. But, the painting of Obama as the antiChrist by conservatives on Foxnews, conservative radio and in social media just needs to stop. It prevents a real debate on issues and it prevents the Republicans from actually having a seat at the table of finding solutions.

 

Ever stop and think about WHY the Republicans have never proposed anything else? If not, I would like you to do so and give me your ideas as to why.

 

 

PS....and, I might add....the Tea Party is the worst thing that has ever happened to the conservative side of politics in this country. They just need to go away and drink tea somewhere else.

 

This argument was tried over and over by the Dems...when they realized what a colossal failure the ACA was and still is, they tried claiming that it really wasn't their plan, and it was the GOP's plan. That is called politics, and it's why so many voters are upset with both parties. Referring back to an idea a handful of Senators proposed 18-20 years earlier and then trying to assign blame to the GOP for a failed policy is ridiculous.

 

As for your "transformation" to an Independent, suggesting that Conservatives are the only ones that have extreme elements in their party is also absurd. From 2005-2008 all we heard from Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, and other leading voices on the left (as well as the majority leftist media outlets) was how bad Bush 43 was, and they presented him as Satan.

 

Also, Obama is the most partisan President of our times, and polls have backed that up to show the Partisan divide on his approval. For 7 years now, he has taken shots at Conservatives and Fox News any chance he can get, and last week in his defense of the Iran deal, he equated Republicans to Iranian terrorists. Do you approve of this from your President? Do you approve of all the name calling and hateful rhetoric that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other Dem leaders voiced toward Bush 43?

 

I do agree that fringe elements in both parties are bad for this country, and that includes "Occupy Wall Street" and "Black Lives Matter" on the left. And unlike these latter two groups, Tea Party protests have been peaceful overall.

Dude....step away from the Koolaid tap for a while.

 

As for my "transformation. I never suggested that conservatives are the only ones that have extremes. I'm obviously not a Democrat for a reason. I'm an independent. I used to sound just like you. I thought....well, that side is doing XYZ so we need to do it too. The ends justify the means. Two wrongs make a right.

 

I finally stepped back and said ENOUGH!!!! Why should I support a group that feeds me nothing but a bunch or propaganda and drink it up as fast as I can simply because the other side does it too?

 

Shouldn't we as voters be revolting against that instead of supporting it? Don't you actually want the truth instead of being fed a long line of BS?

 

So....we get to your statement of "Obama is the most partisan President....". Ummm....no. The partisanship is from both sides. Obama started his Presidency blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything under the sun. You are right about that. But, the Republicans have no moral high ground in this with their constant crap about him not being an American or him being Muslim or whatever the latest attack is that is so ridiculous that smart people should be able to see through it.

 

Americans have a major problem. Notice I said Americans. Not Conservatives or Liberals. I said Americans. With the media the way it is on TV, radio or on line, people no longer listen to opposing views with an open mind. They drink up whatever media agrees with them (no matter if it is actually true or not) and then go on the attack. When you sit back and watch from the outside looking in, it really is a scary situation that I personally feel is going to end badly.

 

So...hey.....I know exactly how you feel right now. I used to be there. The problem is that this country would be better off if more people would revolt against the media like they do against opposing politicians.

 

I don't think you are getting it by suggesting I'm drinking some Kool-aid or implying I get my news from Rush Limbaugh or someone like that. I have NEVER listened to more than 5 minutes of Rush as I just don't like someone telling me how to think. I've said repeatedly I don't like right-wing radio either, but I do have core center-right principles I have always held since forming my opinions in college. I actually get most of my news by reading the many items on realclearpolitics (both left and right righters) as well as just reading regular news stories.

 

So, to put you on the spot, since you are completely Independent, who are you leaning toward voting for in 2016 given the 20+ candidates in the race from both sides?

At this point I am not supporting anyone. I'm listening to both sides. Bernie Sanders bothers me on a lot of levels BUT, I like his desire to get money out of politics. I think that is extremely important and it is what ultimately causes one hell of a lot of problems in this country. To my knowledge, the Republicans have no desire to change anything on this issue. So, I have to ask myself am I willing to vote Democrat for the first time in my life in the Presidential election on this one issue and then go throw up at the thought of voting for everything else? No way in hell I could vote for Hillary. Is there a Republican that I can stomach.

 

As for the Republican candidates, I would like to learn more about Ben Carson. I like people who were successful NOT in politics and come to the table with good ideas. I only watched a little bit of the debate and he seemed very smart and reasonable in his answers that I saw. Donald Trump is an idiot and an embarrassment to the country and just needs to go away. The rest seem like career politicians that I'm not too excited about.

I think the repubs would support getting money out (or they should) if it included union dues, teacher unions, govt workers unions, etc - all of those left leaning organizations that have given for decades. So if we want to take Bernie at his word, he should be insisting (and maybe he is) that these left leaning organizations be limited as well as super pacs. Not sure how this all works out - only the self financing wealthy will be able to run or an individual has to drum up an awful lot of individual donors.

You're very very correct on that. If big companies aren't allowed to donate then other organizations shouldn't be able to donate also. The Dems will never go for that.

 

There's one theory I have always been interested in for Presidential elections but I'm not sure how practical it is and how the logistics would work.

 

If you had government funded elections and say the candidates were all given 100 million dollars to run a campaign. If you go over that amount, you're out of money. You would be able to see how a candidate can be efficient with other people's money and work with a budget. You could see how well he organizes people to get things done. The candidate then wouldn't also be motivated to give favors for money.

 

But...like I said, it's one of those things that in theory sounds great but making it work would be another thing all together.

 

I agree with you. If we truly want a fair playing field, then both money and political coverage must be fair for all candidates. On the money side, this would include all sorts of unions that give heavily to Dems. Also, while I know Fox and conservative radio leans to the right, most Americans get their news from the mainstream networks, or articles posted on yahoo and their website homepages, and those groups lean to the left. I'm not sure how you execute a fair media model, but if you truly want the most pure and fair election process, money and media have to be fixed.

Well, if media outlets were actually punished for false or misleading information, it would go a long ways. But, neither side in politics actually likes this because everyone is comfortable with their power in the media no matter what side you are on. Example...Conservatives are perfectly happy getting all their news from Fox News (even though they know it's slanted conservative ) Meanwhile, liberals are perfectly fine with that because they know liberals hate Foxnews and many times it makes conservatives actually look stupid. So, liberals have no motivation to push for punishment of Foxnews for giving out false or misleading information.

 

I don't know...Conservatives might go for this proposal if it meant they didn't have to deal with the mainstream media bias that permeates the major networks and most online sources like yahoo news. They might be happy that average non-partisan voters are finally getting fair coverage.

You do realize that a heck of a lot of that "main stream media bias" is a myth promoted by Foxnews?

 

Lol...just as the left and Obama uses Fox News to bash and claim is treating liberal ideas unfair. If you truly believe the MSM is not biased the least bit to the left, you are living in a fantasy world.

[BigRedBuster]

I said " a heck of a lot" for a reason.

 

Are there reporters or certain stories that are slanted left, sure.

 

Foxnews has the taken that and exploded it into this huge conspiracy theory. Oh....btw.....guess who profits from you thinking they are the only "fair and balanced" place to get news?

[zoogs]

Carly Fiorina, such accomplishment. So fair and balanced. Why can't we give equal consideration to truth and nonsense?

[cornographic]

Carly Fiorina, such accomplishment. So fair and balanced. Why can't we give equal consideration to truth and nonsense?

She be damn fine for a 50 something. I'd vote for her based on looks alone, 'ceptin' that she's a 'Publikin.