Immigration Pause

[Moiraine]

 

Why do you have status quo as allowing all who want to enter the US enter? That's not the status quo and I don't think it ever has been. I would vote for the actual status quo but that option is not available.

I changed it to be more in the spirit of what I was trying to say - I think this will match what you mentioned

 

 

ty

[BigRedBuster]

[Moiraine]

I would wager Muslims of Arab descent get a lot more flack about their religion than Muslims who are Black.

[84HuskerLaw]

 

 

800,000 refugees/immigrants since 9/11.

 

 

4 have been charged with terrorism.

 

 

it's fine.

Where do you get such a number? That's 14 years.

 

 

 

That is how many non-native people that have been charged with terrorism in the united states.

 

Frankly, there have been 12 arrested in the Minneapolis area alone during the Obama years for terrorism charges so I know it is hundreds or thousands and NOT 4.

[Landlord]

 

 

 

800,000 refugees/immigrants since 9/11.

 

 

4 have been charged with terrorism.

 

 

it's fine.

Where do you get such a number? That's 14 years.

 

 

 

That is how many non-native people that have been charged with terrorism in the united states.

 

Frankly, there have been 12 arrested in the Minneapolis area alone during the Obama years for terrorism charges so I know it is hundreds or thousands and NOT 4.

 

 

 

 

Link please, even though arrested != charged.

[Creighton Duke]

I would wager Muslims of Arab descent get a lot more flack about their religion than Muslims who are Black.

Hmmm...I don't know. It is always difficult to gauge such things when you decide to engage in games pitting one historically underrepresented group against another (truth be told, I don't like to play such games so what do I know?!) However, for the sake of comparison, the Southern Poverty Law Center does list two, count 'em TWO historically Black Muslim groups on its watch list. It doesn't appear as though any historically Arab Muslim groups make the list. Make of it what you will.

[Moiraine]

 

I would wager Muslims of Arab descent get a lot more flack about their religion than Muslims who are Black.

Hmmm...I don't know. It is always difficult to gauge such things when you decide to engage in games pitting one historically underrepresented group against another (truth be told, I don't like to play such games so what do I know?!) However, for the sake of comparison, the Southern Poverty Law Center does list two, count 'em TWO historically Black Muslim groups on its watch list. It doesn't appear as though any historically Arab Muslim groups make the list. Make of it what you will.

 

I just feel like most don't associate Black people with being Muslim. But the assumption is usually if a person's Arab they are Muslim.

[cornographic]

 

Trump, Cruz, and many of the Repubs(and some Dems) keep claiming that the vetting system is broken, etc, whereas anyone who actually works in the system says the vetting system for refugees is extremely extensive.

 

 

 

Are you insinuating that people, including politicians, make things up because their audience doesn't know the facts, and there's little repercussion? I suppose next you're going to say that it's some sort of scare tactic to fan fears and prejudices.

 

Lol, we're on the same page, Bro... The other thing is the issue of "incryption", the de-coding, that is, which the politicians--like Fiona--also say "needs fixed", even though the FBI head has held a number of Senate hearings in past recent months stating that they and the NSA have been addressing this issue, like, you know, since they started following terrorists online. Fiona "knows better" of course, she knows everything about high tech, since, you know, she has zero experience as a computer engineer.

[cornographic]

 

 

I would wager Muslims of Arab descent get a lot more flack about their religion than Muslims who are Black.

Hmmm...I don't know. It is always difficult to gauge such things when you decide to engage in games pitting one historically underrepresented group against another (truth be told, I don't like to play such games so what do I know?!) However, for the sake of comparison, the Southern Poverty Law Center does list two, count 'em TWO historically Black Muslim groups on its watch list. It doesn't appear as though any historically Arab Muslim groups make the list. Make of it what you will.

 

I just feel like most don't associate Black people with being Muslim. But the assumption is usually if a person's Arab they are Muslim.

 

Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world with Africa 2nd, last time I checked. Anyway, Trumpf's idea of trying to ban or pause ALL Muslim travel/immigration into the country is another one of his idiotic ideas--like his stupid Wall and Deportation Force--that would never work and will never happen.

[cornographic]

 

 

 

They need to find an effective way to vet anyone seeking access to this country. Until they find a way to do so, things like the tragedy in San Bernadino will keep occurring. You can't just say one cross section of people can't come in because of what happened, partially because this is what the country was founded on.

 

They need to completely revamp the way immigration is run...

 

This isn't just aimed at you but based on things I read all over here on FB, people keep talking like they aren't screened at all. I have no idea where that idea comes from. How is the current process not effective when this was the biggest terrorist attack in the US in the past 14 years? There will ALWAYS be crazy people who manage to kill people. Most of the time it isn't done by immigrants.

 

Trump, Cruz, and many of the Repubs(and some Dems) keep claiming that the vetting system is broken, etc, whereas anyone who actually works in the system says the vetting system for refugees is extremely extensive.

 

I posted the link in one of my posts above to show what the White House says is the vetting process. Seems pretty thorough. I would imagine the candidates that are saying that it is broken are just pandering to people too lazy to look it up themselves.

 

Absolutely true, just like the Repubs are saying that Obama and the National Defense Dpt "aren't doing anything" about ISIS, when, in fact, they are doing about everything that is humaly possible to do vs ISIS asymetric warefare, which can never be completely defeated, especially when the US et al goes around the world bombing everybody into oblivion. Repubs are doing what they do best, though, which is to pander to the fears of their Mur'can base, beat their war drums, yada yada: that's what they do best. I REALLY would like to see a complete list of $ from defense contractors to the various politicians.

[cornographic]

At what point do other countries stop letting Americans in because of all the gun crimes that happen here?

Nice, touche'!

[cornographic]

 

 

 

 

 

 

800,000 refugees/immigrants since 9/11.

 

 

4 have been charged with terrorism.

 

 

it's fine.

Where do you get such a number? That's 14 years. Terrorism all over the world. Likely thousands of attacks by refugees and immigrants all over. Why would you say $? Are you talking those convicted of carrying out attacks in the USA? We know they are terror attacks all over. Paris attacks were refugees for example. The two who were killed in San Bernadino CA one week ago were 'refugee/immigrant' and child of immigrant! I am sorry but the Unites States poplution is 'estimated' as we don't really even know due to illegal immigration at alarming rates over the past 7 years! Estimated at around 330 MILLION! That is about 90 million more than have jobs in this economy! We need 20 million good, upper middle income jobs immediately and another 2 million yearly.

One reason we have so much illegal immigration is because the bottom feeders in our economy would rather live on the social welfare handouts than take entry level jobs.

Do you have statistics to back that up or is it just a gut feeling based on stories you've heard about individuals? I have a feeling (but no stats) that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that pay less than minimum wage.

 

Some anecdotal evidence: I was on food stamps for a year while getting my undergrad degree in Math and Education and working 25 hours per week cashiering and tutoring. I wanted to work, and I worked, and still needed help so I took it. I wasn't a "bottom feeder" who wanted to live off of handouts. I find it highly unlikely that more than a handful of people on social programs actually want to be reliant on them, but again, I don't have statistics.

 

Either way, there's no reason we should cut social welfare "handouts" as you call them and spend as much $ as we do on corporate subsidies. Almost every state, maybe every state, requires that you work or volunteer if you want to receive food stamps. I don't know the details on other types of welfare.

Sorry, no stats other than personal experience over the years working with various people. It sounds like your situation is the exception more than the rule. I mean, what percentage of people receiving food stamps are college students? I'm guessing it's a fairly small percentage.

And I think people abusing the system area exception. I think the people who abuse the system are just more memorable because they're doing something horrible.

 

 

Fair enough. But why is it that there are so many minimum wage jobs available for the taking, and yet a lot of folks would rather get a free handout than work for a small wage? I can understand if someone is going to college and working part time. But what about the vast majority of people who aren't seeking to improve their skill set?

 

I think I was more compassionate years ago when I was just reading about these situations, before I had actually met some of these people and tried to work with them. Over the years I've gradually become convinced that, in many cases, free handouts aren't the way to go. It incentivizes the wrong behavior. But I guess that's just my opinion. :shrug:

 

As an aside, in the capitalist system, there is always a surplus work force, that is, the system can never provide full employment no matter how qualified people may or may not be. Everybody trained as an engineer, for e.g., will not necessarily attain a job as an engineer. Only ~10% of med school applicants will get in....etc etc, applying to all fields. So, the idea that jobs exist for ALL who have the skill sets for those jobs, is, essentially, a myth. There will always be unemployment--those out of the economic system. So, if you don't want zillions more homeless people starving out in the street, or on your lawn, it is Just and humane that--through democratic struggle--the System, albeit reluctantly, provides some safety nets for the so-called "dead beats".

 

Also, I know many legal and illegal immigrants of many ethnicities and every one of them basically works their ass off...the ones I know, anyway.

[NUance]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

800,000 refugees/immigrants since 9/11.

 

 

4 have been charged with terrorism.

 

 

it's fine.

Where do you get such a number? That's 14 years. Terrorism all over the world. Likely thousands of attacks by refugees and immigrants all over. Why would you say $? Are you talking those convicted of carrying out attacks in the USA? We know they are terror attacks all over. Paris attacks were refugees for example. The two who were killed in San Bernadino CA one week ago were 'refugee/immigrant' and child of immigrant! I am sorry but the Unites States poplution is 'estimated' as we don't really even know due to illegal immigration at alarming rates over the past 7 years! Estimated at around 330 MILLION! That is about 90 million more than have jobs in this economy! We need 20 million good, upper middle income jobs immediately and another 2 million yearly.

One reason we have so much illegal immigration is because the bottom feeders in our economy would rather live on the social welfare handouts than take entry level jobs.

Do you have statistics to back that up or is it just a gut feeling based on stories you've heard about individuals? I have a feeling (but no stats) that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that pay less than minimum wage.

 

Some anecdotal evidence: I was on food stamps for a year while getting my undergrad degree in Math and Education and working 25 hours per week cashiering and tutoring. I wanted to work, and I worked, and still needed help so I took it. I wasn't a "bottom feeder" who wanted to live off of handouts. I find it highly unlikely that more than a handful of people on social programs actually want to be reliant on them, but again, I don't have statistics.

 

Either way, there's no reason we should cut social welfare "handouts" as you call them and spend as much $ as we do on corporate subsidies. Almost every state, maybe every state, requires that you work or volunteer if you want to receive food stamps. I don't know the details on other types of welfare.

Sorry, no stats other than personal experience over the years working with various people. It sounds like your situation is the exception more than the rule. I mean, what percentage of people receiving food stamps are college students? I'm guessing it's a fairly small percentage.

And I think people abusing the system area exception. I think the people who abuse the system are just more memorable because they're doing something horrible.

 

 

Fair enough. But why is it that there are so many minimum wage jobs available for the taking, and yet a lot of folks would rather get a free handout than work for a small wage? I can understand if someone is going to college and working part time. But what about the vast majority of people who aren't seeking to improve their skill set?

 

I think I was more compassionate years ago when I was just reading about these situations, before I had actually met some of these people and tried to work with them. Over the years I've gradually become convinced that, in many cases, free handouts aren't the way to go. It incentivizes the wrong behavior. But I guess that's just my opinion. :shrug:

 

As an aside, in the capitalist system, there is always a surplus work force, that is, the system can never provide full employment no matter how qualified people may or may not be. Everybody trained as an engineer, for e.g., will not necessarily attain a job as an engineer. Only ~10% of med school applicants will get in....etc etc, applying to all fields. So, the idea that jobs exist for ALL who have the skill sets for those jobs, is, essentially, a myth. There will always be unemployment--those out of the economic system. So, if you don't want zillions more homeless people starving out in the street, or on your lawn, it is Just and humane that--through democratic struggle--the System, albeit reluctantly, provides some safety nets for the so-called "dead beats".

 

Also, I know many legal and illegal immigrants of many ethnicities and every one of them basically works their ass off...the ones I know, anyway.

 

 

Wait, isn't my point sort of the opposite? There are tons of entry level jobs. And it's hard for employers to find workers willing to take those jobs. Yet we have millions of people with entry level skills who choose not to work.

 

Just to be clear, I do NOT favor ending all of our governmental safety net social programs. But I do think that any sort of social assistance should be earned. We should have training programs and work programs in place. Various assistance programs—welfare, foodstamps, low income housing, etc.—should be readily available to those in need with the stipulation that recipients either enroll in training programs or work programs to "earn" the benefits they receive. Of course I realize these programs could not come close to paying for themselves. But I suspect such programs featuring job training or work experience might actually help people get back on their feet faster. Or incentivize them to do so. /JMHO

[cornographic]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

800,000 refugees/immigrants since 9/11.

 

 

4 have been charged with terrorism.

 

 

it's fine.

Where do you get such a number? That's 14 years. Terrorism all over the world. Likely thousands of attacks by refugees and immigrants all over. Why would you say $? Are you talking those convicted of carrying out attacks in the USA? We know they are terror attacks all over. Paris attacks were refugees for example. The two who were killed in San Bernadino CA one week ago were 'refugee/immigrant' and child of immigrant! I am sorry but the Unites States poplution is 'estimated' as we don't really even know due to illegal immigration at alarming rates over the past 7 years! Estimated at around 330 MILLION! That is about 90 million more than have jobs in this economy! We need 20 million good, upper middle income jobs immediately and another 2 million yearly.

One reason we have so much illegal immigration is because the bottom feeders in our economy would rather live on the social welfare handouts than take entry level jobs.

Do you have statistics to back that up or is it just a gut feeling based on stories you've heard about individuals? I have a feeling (but no stats) that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that pay less than minimum wage.

 

Some anecdotal evidence: I was on food stamps for a year while getting my undergrad degree in Math and Education and working 25 hours per week cashiering and tutoring. I wanted to work, and I worked, and still needed help so I took it. I wasn't a "bottom feeder" who wanted to live off of handouts. I find it highly unlikely that more than a handful of people on social programs actually want to be reliant on them, but again, I don't have statistics.

 

Either way, there's no reason we should cut social welfare "handouts" as you call them and spend as much $ as we do on corporate subsidies. Almost every state, maybe every state, requires that you work or volunteer if you want to receive food stamps. I don't know the details on other types of welfare.

Sorry, no stats other than personal experience over the years working with various people. It sounds like your situation is the exception more than the rule. I mean, what percentage of people receiving food stamps are college students? I'm guessing it's a fairly small percentage.

And I think people abusing the system area exception. I think the people who abuse the system are just more memorable because they're doing something horrible.

 

 

Fair enough. But why is it that there are so many minimum wage jobs available for the taking, and yet a lot of folks would rather get a free handout than work for a small wage? I can understand if someone is going to college and working part time. But what about the vast majority of people who aren't seeking to improve their skill set?

 

I think I was more compassionate years ago when I was just reading about these situations, before I had actually met some of these people and tried to work with them. Over the years I've gradually become convinced that, in many cases, free handouts aren't the way to go. It incentivizes the wrong behavior. But I guess that's just my opinion. :shrug:

 

As an aside, in the capitalist system, there is always a surplus work force, that is, the system can never provide full employment no matter how qualified people may or may not be. Everybody trained as an engineer, for e.g., will not necessarily attain a job as an engineer. Only ~10% of med school applicants will get in....etc etc, applying to all fields. So, the idea that jobs exist for ALL who have the skill sets for those jobs, is, essentially, a myth. There will always be unemployment--those out of the economic system. So, if you don't want zillions more homeless people starving out in the street, or on your lawn, it is Just and humane that--through democratic struggle--the System, albeit reluctantly, provides some safety nets for the so-called "dead beats".

 

Also, I know many legal and illegal immigrants of many ethnicities and every one of them basically works their ass off...the ones I know, anyway.

 

 

Wait, isn't my point sort of the opposite? There are tons of entry level jobs. And it's hard for employers to find workers willing to take those jobs. Yet we have millions of people with entry level skills who choose not to work.

 

Just to be clear, I do NOT favor ending all of our governmental safety net social programs. But I do think that any sort of social assistance should be earned. We should have training programs and work programs in place. Various assistance programs—welfare, foodstamps, low income housing, etc.—should be readily available to those in need with the stipulation that recipients either enroll in training programs or work programs to "earn" the benefits they receive. Of course I realize these programs could not come close to paying for themselves. But I suspect such programs featuring job training or work experience might actually help people get back on their feet faster. Or incentivize them to do so. /JMHO

 

 

I'd like to see some evidence as to the bolded. Normally, the system accepts ~5% unemployment as = full employment, which, in the USA means roughly 15 mil people minimum are unemployed. That's conservative. All I'm saying the capitalistic system has never provided enough jobs for the entire population, whether those jobs be skilled or "unskilled", and there are certainly not enough non entry level jobs available for those who are qualified to "move up the ladder". There are plenty of adults who are having to support themselves and family on entry level jobs.

 

As to safety nets, I know at least some states that have a job search program as part of the deal and there are also various training programs available, though I'm not sure if they are mandatorily linked.