Dems Rebuild

[RedDenver]

2 minutes ago, zoogs said:

We are being absolved, by ourselves.

 

Perhaps you don't see this as a permission slip for your fellow American to not vote Democrat in order to get Republicans out of office, across the board. But from a messaging standpoint in particular, that's exactly what it is. 

 

I think that's why this is so frustrating for me. I see all this talk, and it is widespread, as our own failure and an important contributor to our tepid failure to remove the GOP (which, structurally, is hard enough as is). There is always this debate between "the current Democratic Party" and "the best version of the Democratic Party". There's also a really urgent fight on the ground and perhaps I'm just that rabid a leftist relative to you guys (I really don't think so), but in this endeavor tepidness absolutely will not do. They shouldn't be, but our political choices are so clear right now; an inability to keep that front and center (e.g. "Doug Jones is such an uninspiring candidate who isn't good for the black community", among other things) endangers every race.

The bold is one of the weirdest takes I've seen. You're letting your bias for the Dems cloud the issues. Nobody needs a permission slip to NOT vote for a party. If the Dems want my vote or anyone else's, they need to earn it. It's not simply enough for them to not be Republican and therefore they get those votes by default.

 

YOU see the political choices as being either Republican or Democrat and nothing else, or perhaps you see not voting for the Democrat the same as voting for the Republican. I don't. I want options neither party is offering, and I intend to use my vote and my voice to enable those changes.

[zoogs]

By the way, parties are not overlords who come up with ideas for us to consume. We can't look to them for good output material, the way we might evaluate a musician or a film director. Ideas are demanded and percolate up from the priorities of the base. The Republican "messaging" isn't the coherent, effective beast it is because of the savvy and genius of their leadership, it's because they have this white nationalist, down-with-the-babykillers base to which they can effectively appeal.

 

Want better? Be better. Demand it of yourself and those around you. Or we're all getting exactly what we deserve. It's a democracy, folks. That's the deal. And "the other side doesn't have good ideas against the Republicans right now" is not being "better", it's being blind.

 

The political choices are either Republican or Democrat and nothing else. We will lose our democracy by failing to stop the Republicans. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by zoogs

[RedDenver]

5 minutes ago, zoogs said:

By the way, parties are not overlords who come up with ideas for us to consume. We can't look to them for good output material, the way we might evaluate a musician or a film director. Ideas are demanded and percolate up from the priorities of the base. The Republican "messaging" isn't the coherent, effective beast it is because of the savvy and genius of their leadership, it's because they have this white nationalist, down-with-the-babykillers base to which they can effectively appeal.

 

Want better? Be better. Demand it of yourself and those around you. Or we're all getting exactly what we deserve. It's a democracy, folks. That's the deal. And "the other side doesn't have good ideas against the Republicans right now" is not being "better", it's being blind.

I think voting for the Dems because they're not the Republicans results in the Dems knowing they have your vote no matter what, so there's no reason for them to even care what you want. Not demanding more from the candidates who want your vote, and not being willing to withhold that vote, is being blind.

Edited December 14, 2017 by RedDenver

[Guy Chamberlin]

31 minutes ago, zoogs said:

40 minutes ago, zoogs said:

We are being absolved, by ourselves.

 

Perhaps you don't see this as a permission slip for your fellow American to not vote Democrat in order to get Republicans out of office, across the board. But from a messaging standpoint in particular, that's exactly what it is. 

 

 

 

If I'm reading you correctly, you're concerned that any conflict within the Democratic Party is a threat to getting Republicans out of office. That's certainly valid. 

 

But that would be the same Democratic party that lost the House and Senate, and then lost to the worst candidate in U.S. history by running a candidate who was liked even less.

 

Your other posts suggests we can all be better and demand better.  But this is part of it. It's an excellent time to shake up and inspire the Democratic party, and that includes calling Nancy Pelosi out on her hypocrisy and recoiling at the thought of Hillary running for President again. 

 

Democratic leadership has defaulted to the lazy GOP playbook: be appalled by everything the President does and use it for fundraising.

 

Yeah, we can do better. That's not a permission slip to not vote. It's a permission slip to demand better. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Guy Chamberlin

[zoogs]

No, that's not correct. I am not arguing against conflict. Diversity of viewpoint is one of the many merit's of the Democratic coalition. I'm arguing against the specific, awful, repeatedly regurgitated take that "there are no good ideas". 

 

An illustration of how I see this. We are in a house of ten people, and a decision on breakfast is coming down.

- You are saying the filthily mainstream pepperoni pizza option is unacceptable, and that we must go with the quinoa salad.

- I am saying yes, I empathize with you and I understand that quinoa salad sounds amazing, and that if we had pepperoni pizza every day for the rest of our lives, we'd be in a really unhealthy place. But the other option people in the room are weighing is being shot in the face by a shotgun, and I am saying it is unacceptable to stay out of this debate.

 

More accurately, the option wasn't pepperoni pizza to begin with, it was quinoa salad anyway and I wasn't about to lose sight of that because the coffee wasn't fair trade. 

 

I think if we fail to learn from history we will always repeat it, tragically. We're in a place right now where some of the most reasonable people in the room, the people who from their viewpoints I would think should be on the same damn side, would stay on the sidelines if we redid the 2016 presidential election tomorrow, lest they be thought of as a Democratic shill voting for an "unlikable" candidate. And that is a tragedy.

 

It's a tragedy that people who can so clearly tell right from wrong on fundamental things like the tax bill, environmental policy, net neutrality, healthcare, CHIP, banning Muslims, LGBTQ rights, women's rights...do not, when the pedal hits the metal, actually care about these things as much as they care about whatever else it is they consider more important -- and have no interest in being called out or held accountable over it. And more than policy preferences, we are talking about white supremacy-sympathizing, temperamentally unfit loons in power who will take a sledgehammer to American democracy itself and all her institutions and instruments if they can get away with it. And the real, urgent, nearly lost, dammit! fight to stop that will get written off as "that's a platform that's just against things, not for things."

 

Every one of us plays a role in choosing what to take a stand on and what to focus on. Alabama is an illustrative example. The conservatives who stood on the sidelines, who shamed each other and themselves into not turning out in the face of who Moore was -- they were all complicit in his defeat, and we have them to thank for that. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by zoogs

[Landlord]

the f#*k, zoogs?

 

I think you are hilariously reading into all of this. I don't think I'm alone in my perspective which is that A) I will absolutely stand on whatever is the diametrically opposite side of the evil and heinous s#!t the GOP is trying to pull, while B) simultaneously BEING BETTER and DEMANDING MORE from the opposite side. It's so unlike you to paint everything in such a binary way and it's frankly... confusing as hell to me.

 

Everyone on here talking about how the democrats need better messaging or young blood or whatever are saying so precisely because we want that side (not Democrats, so much as decency and rational thought, which in our two party reality are joined at the hip) to win! You are vehemently trying to shout down self-reflection right now - what's up with that?

 

 

59 minutes ago, zoogs said:

The Republican "messaging" isn't the coherent, effective beast it is because of the savvy and genius of their leadership...

 

Sorry, but yes it is. Their leadership believes, "We can convince people of a reality through a consistent narrative of fear, persecution and patronization from the 'other', and that will solidify our base." That is true. They are right. The Democratic leadership believes, "We can win over the populace with facts, science, and rational discussion." That is, unfortunately, not true. If it was, we wouldn't be where we are today. 

 

 

59 minutes ago, zoogs said:

Want better? Be better. Demand it of yourself and those around you.

 

 

Like...what do you think everyone is doing in this thread? 

[zoogs]

We cannot be this confused as to not understand what "the Democratic Party is not good for us" and "an abstention is not the same thing as voting for Republicans" means.

 

If you want the Democratic Party to win, vote like it.

 

If you want to claim you are all about "self-reflection" and "bettering the Democratic Party", expect to be held to account on these scores.

 

If you want to talk this much about "better messaging" for the Left, maybe don't make a life mission out of promulgating the "Both Parties..." narrative. I get the appeal of rote cynicism. It's a s#!t narrative, and we can agree to disagree on it.

Edited December 14, 2017 by zoogs

[Landlord]

2 minutes ago, zoogs said:

If you want the Democratic Party to win, vote like it.

 

 

"...and also demand that their substance and messaging gives everyone else a good reason to vote like it too"

 

right? or no?

[zoogs]

Yeah, my point is really if "everyone else" cannot get on board resisting fascism, preserving the ACA, net neutrality, defending against the Republican stacking of the federal judiciary, and a number of the other things I named above, we do not exist in the same galaxy of perspectives.

 

I think it's important for people to value these things. I am interested in holding people who claim to value these things, to account on that.

 

I don't think I am arguing against people who have different views about what the Left's future should look like. I am arguing against people who contributed to a climate that looked at Trump vs Clinton and shrugged; who would contribute equally to a Trump victory against her if we did it over again tomorrow, and who would do the same in 2020 if the candidate were some boring, compromised figure like Biden or Booker or HRC again. 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Dude, millions of people vote for candidates they're not thrilled with in order to defeat candidates they genuinely oppose.  It's no secret this happens every election. But 2016 was pretty special that way.

 

As we've already pointed out, you can and should fight for a better option before taking the compromised position. 

 

That's how you get the people who shrugged at Trump vs. Clinton on your side. 

[Guy Chamberlin]

45 minutes ago, zoogs said:

 

 

If you want the Democratic Party to win, vote like it.

 

 

Yes, by finding and championing new leaders, even if it means opposing the Party machinery that --- let's face it  --- hasn't been so great at winning.

[RedDenver]

2 hours ago, zoogs said:

Yeah, my point is really if "everyone else" cannot get on board resisting fascism, preserving the ACA, net neutrality, defending against the Republican stacking of the federal judiciary, and a number of the other things I named above, we do not exist in the same galaxy of perspectives.

 

I think it's important for people to value these things. I am interested in holding people who claim to value these things, to account on that.

 

I don't think I am arguing against people who have different views about what the Left's future should look like. I am arguing against people who contributed to a climate that looked at Trump vs Clinton and shrugged; who would contribute equally to a Trump victory against her if we did it over again tomorrow, and who would do the same in 2020 if the candidate were some boring, compromised figure like Biden or Booker or HRC again. 

 

Please no

[Big Red 40]

Having great ideals is all fine and dandy,  but without people in power to push your agenda,  they don’t mean a damn thing . Progressives and Democrats share many of the same views, basically the opposite of the GOP . While we squabble between Bernie bros, old school dems etc the GOP presents a unified front willing to do anything it takes to win and they do . The left needs to unite or we’ll all lose again . 

[RedDenver]

28 minutes ago, Big Red 40 said:

Having great ideals is all fine and dandy,  but without people in power to push your agenda,  they don’t mean a damn thing . Progressives and Democrats share many of the same views, basically the opposite of the GOP . While we squabble between Bernie bros, old school dems etc the GOP presents a unified front willing to do anything it takes to win and they do . The left needs to unite or we’ll all lose again . 

The GOP does not present a unified front. The entire last year proves that they squabble at least as much as the Left.

 

And I'm tired of hearing about how we need to unite. If uniting is really that important, then let go of your position and unite behind the other side. I'm guessing that neither the Democrats nor the Progressives are willing to do that.

[BigRedBuster]

4 hours ago, zoogs said:

Yeah, my point is really if "everyone else" cannot get on board resisting fascism, preserving the ACA, net neutrality, defending against the Republican stacking of the federal judiciary, and a number of the other things I named above, we do not exist in the same galaxy of perspectives.

 

 

Yeah....even though we both agree the Republican Party is one big pile of zebra dung right now on many issues, during normal political times, we probably are at least on different planets.