Trump and his love for Andrew Jackson

[Landlord]

 

 

Probably shouldn't idolize men who were incredible racists.

 

People will likely say the same thing about you and materialism someday.

Also, because I didn't respond to this earlier, I think it's critical to point out that this is an unfair analogy in my opinion. Modern day materialism is incomparable to racism and/or white nationalism.

 

 

 

According to what metric? The white slave owner, I'm sure, genuinely thought that he was doing good for the negroes by having them as slaves, because they were too dumb or because otherwise they'd just be enslaved way worse in Afirca, and at least it wasn't as bad as the barbaric practices of the Roman Empire or the witch trials or whatever Obviously that's horrendous to think about, but it was a cultural blind spot. Entire civilizations and societies do not adopt practices that they have an awareness of being evil.

 

If there's something after we all die, if there's a state of enlightenment or whatever, I'm fully expecting that we all will be humbled beyond comprehension at how much we got wrong. Modern day materialism may not be as bad, but it also may be. It produces slave labor and sweat shops and brutal factory farming and department store behemoths that kill local businesses and perpetuate a cycle of poverty and who knows what else?

[zoogs]

How far do we take this? Hitler was just in crazy times.

[TGHusker]

How far do we take this? Hitler was just in crazy times.

 

A Culture can be deceived in mass. Just because the culture defines a thing as good doesn't mean it is. Natural law says otherwise. We can be deceived into thinking wrong is right when we override our individual and national conscience. Not just a Hitler but a whole population that allowed a Hitler to rise to power, ignoring his abuse of power because of the benefit he brought to them personally and collectively. "So he miss treats the Jews", they say "we at least now have jobs, food on the table and prestige as a nation". Normally it takes a huge event to wake a culture out of this kind of deception. For us it was the civil war for Germany - D Day was just the beginning of the 'awakening' - collimating in making the German citizens clean out the death camps and the trials of the Nazi war criminals.

[zoogs]

I just wonder why we're having focusing so much on the meta discussion here and not talking about Andrew Jackson specifically. It's obviously not true that every figure from the past should be immune to criticism.

 

Why are the modern-day critics of Jackson being unfair to him? Why shouldn't history hold him in low esteem while comparatively being kinder to other slaveowners like Thomas Jefferson or other "pretty racist even for their times" men like Lyndon Johnson?

[Making Chimichangas]

 

 

 

Probably shouldn't idolize men who were incredible racists.

 

Probably should read up on the topic before we label people as incredible racists.

Hyperbole though it may be, he was a white nationalist, slave owner and was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Native Americans.

 

 

 

And he also lived in a cultural context where those things were not considered to be as heinous or evil as they are today. Had you lived then, you would not have been terribly different.

 

 

Have the standards of basic human decency, and treating people with a basic courtesy and respect, really changed that drastically over time?

 

Seems to me that regardless of the time period someone lived in, if they had any basic respect or courtesy for other people, they wouldn't behave in such a heinous way.

 

Put it this way: even back in Andrew Jackson's day, and before, there were people who were anti-slavery. That's not to say they wanted blacks to be equal, but that's another conversation entirely. Point is: even when slavery was legal, a few decent people spoke out because they knew it was wrong. Likewise, Andrew Jackson knew what he did was wrong and so time period he lived in is pretty much a lame excuse.

[Landlord]

Have the standards of basic human decency, and treating people with a basic courtesy and respect, really changed that drastically over time?

 

Seems to me that regardless of the time period someone lived in, if they had any basic respect or courtesy for other people, they wouldn't behave in such a heinous way.

 

Put it this way: even back in Andrew Jackson's day, and before, there were people who were anti-slavery. That's not to say they wanted blacks to be equal, but that's another conversation entirely. Point is: even when slavery was legal, a few decent people spoke out because they knew it was wrong. Likewise, Andrew Jackson knew what he did was wrong and so time period he lived in is pretty much a lame excuse.

 

 

Take any issue and you'll find at minimum a vocal minority against it. Wage gap, white nationalism, sweat shops, prostitution/sex trafficking, corporate farming, pornography, fracking, so on and so forth ad infinitum.

 

Do you really think that 100 years from now people won't look back on our generation with disgust at how we didn't stop doing x, y, or z? We've made progress as a species, but progress doesn't only go in a positive direction, and this thing that is easy to fall into where people of the past were morally bankrupt savages and we are decent, enlightened folk is called chronological snobbery.

[knapplc]

We're defending Andrew Jackson as a slave owner now? What the hell?

[Landlord]

Not really defending Andrew Jackson as much as warning against only looking at the sins of the past as being in the past. It's a lot more beneficial for me and for everyone for me to ponder, "Man, I wonder if I'm similar to Andrew Jackson and I just can't see it" than to just stop and finish at, "Andrew Jackson was a monster."

 

 

I got caught on a side tangent rabbit trail. Carry on with much more important topics of discussion, if they exist

[Making Chimichangas]

 

Have the standards of basic human decency, and treating people with a basic courtesy and respect, really changed that drastically over time?

 

Seems to me that regardless of the time period someone lived in, if they had any basic respect or courtesy for other people, they wouldn't behave in such a heinous way.

 

Put it this way: even back in Andrew Jackson's day, and before, there were people who were anti-slavery. That's not to say they wanted blacks to be equal, but that's another conversation entirely. Point is: even when slavery was legal, a few decent people spoke out because they knew it was wrong. Likewise, Andrew Jackson knew what he did was wrong and so time period he lived in is pretty much a lame excuse.

 

 

Take any issue and you'll find at minimum a vocal minority against it. Wage gap, white nationalism, sweat shops, prostitution/sex trafficking, corporate farming, pornography, fracking, so on and so forth ad infinitum.

 

Do you really think that 100 years from now people won't look back on our generation with disgust at how we didn't stop doing x, y, or z? We've made progress as a species, but progress doesn't only go in a positive direction, and this thing that is easy to fall into where people of the past were morally bankrupt savages and we are decent, enlightened folk is called chronological snobbery.

 

I understand the "You can't put today's morals and what is considered wrong on people who lived in a past era/time frame" argument. I still think it's bunk, but we could go back and forth on this all day and not come to any agreement.

 

That being said...

 

So what excuse do the white nationalists, nazis, westboro baptists, and all the other bigoted, hateful, crazies have today? They presumably live in the same time frame and reality we do, and yet they still hold onto to beliefs that would fit better in 1717, rather than 2017.

[zoogs]

I see where you're coming from. To go back to the Hitler example, it's far more useful to think of him as a human and not as a uniquely evil monster whose association with our species we can all wash our hands of now. I.e., it can all happen here and again.

 

That said there's a difference between this sort of "usefulness" in interpretation to not allowing for any judgments to be formed at all. If we can't come to view things as serious, legacy-tarnishing flaws (or worse) because of materialism, then we permit everything.

[Landlord]

So what excuse do the white nationalists, nazis, westboro baptists, and all the other bigoted, hateful, crazies have today? They presumably live in the same time frame and reality we do, and yet they still hold onto to beliefs that would fit better in 1717, rather than 2017.

 

 

There is no excuse for them. There is also no excuse for Andrew Jackson. There is also no excuse for you, in the ways that you work against your fellow men that you probably can not see. There are only individual people, with individual stories and upbringings and cultures that influenced a big part of who they became, and explanations that help us to see and learn.

[Enhance]

 

 

 

Probably shouldn't idolize men who were incredible racists.

 

People will likely say the same thing about you and materialism someday.

Also, because I didn't respond to this earlier, I think it's critical to point out that this is an unfair analogy in my opinion. Modern day materialism is incomparable to racism and/or white nationalism.

 

 

 

According to what metric? The white slave owner, I'm sure, genuinely thought that he was doing good for the negroes by having them as slaves, because they were too dumb or because otherwise they'd just be enslaved way worse in Afirca, and at least it wasn't as bad as the barbaric practices of the Roman Empire or the witch trials or whatever Obviously that's horrendous to think about, but it was a cultural blind spot. Entire civilizations and societies do not adopt practices that they have an awareness of being evil.

 

If there's something after we all die, if there's a state of enlightenment or whatever, I'm fully expecting that we all will be humbled beyond comprehension at how much we got wrong. Modern day materialism may not be as bad, but it also may be. It produces slave labor and sweat shops and brutal factory farming and department store behemoths that kill local businesses and perpetuate a cycle of poverty and who knows what else?

 

No, the white slave owner was genuinely making a boat load of cash at the expense of other human beings. Some may have warped themselves into believing they were working for the greater good, but that's not why they did it. That's why Jim Crow type laws existed well into the late 20th century and some would argue the remnants of those laws still exist in some places.

 

Regardless, existing in the U.S. in 2017 doesn't automatically make you a materialist, just as existing in 1817 didn't automatically make you a white nationalist slave owner. We're talking about one man and one man's decisions and that goes back to my point.

 

I'd wager a lot of black Americans don't think very highly of someone like Andrew Jackson and I furthermore doubt they'd take your excuse of 'he was just doing what was right at the time.'

[Enhance]

Why are the modern-day critics of Jackson being unfair to him? Why shouldn't history hold him in low esteem while comparatively being kinder to other slaveowners like Thomas Jefferson or other "pretty racist even for their times" men like Lyndon Johnson?

The answer is fairly clear to me: American history has been largely dominated and controlled by whites. I don't think that's anything earth-shattering.

 

Evaluating historical figures should be taken in stride and that's all I'm arguing. Jackson did a lot of positive things for this country but also did some pretty terrible things. As such, I don't think it necessarily makes sense to honor him. I equally don't think it's fair to just lambast the man.

 

It's better to just let it be and move on - evaluate the historical significance and take what lessons we can.

[TGHusker]

http://www.cnsnews.com/video/trump-andrew-jackson-fought-defend-forgotten-men-and-women-arrogant-elite-sound-familiar

 

Timely Video - Trump to lay a reef on the grave of Andrew Jackson this week.

Quote:

Trump: Andrew Jackson Fought to Defend Forgotten Men and Women from Arrogant Elite. Sound Familiar?

[ZRod]

Except how is Trump doing that???