Star Wars: Episode VIII ***Speculation & Spoilers***

[knapplc]

43 minutes ago, Mavric said:

But my issues isn't with that part of the story.  It's that Rey spent most of two movies and especially the better part of TLJ trying to find out about her parents.  And then that story is thrown away in one line.  If that's all they were going to do, start in the very first scene of TFA and have her say her parents were simple people and are now dead.  Then go from there.  No need for all that build up and then nothing.

 

I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that we had different directors with different visions for TFA vs. TLJ.  Abrams spends all this time in TFA making us think Rey's lineage is important, and spends other time building up the importance of the recovery of Luke's lightsaber.  Then Johnson comes in to do TLJ and they throw away all that buildup with Rey's lineage in one line from Kylo Ren, and Luke literally unceremoniously tosses away his lightsaber, which was the climactic, drama-filled scene at the end of TFA.

 

The theme of TLJ is "throw away the past."  It was a bad theme.  They had to have had better ideas.

[knapplc]

Speaking of Yoda, that whole scene at the tree was super weird.  That's the first time we see a Force ghost interact with the physical world around them, when Yoda raps on Luke's head with the Force ghost of his walking stick in his "MCFLY!!!" moment.  So they foreshadow Luke's "battle" with Kylo at the end with that.

 

But that scene is weirder, because Luke has resolved to destroy the tree and the books and marches all the way up there with his torch, only to be interrupted by Yoda, who kinda cautions him not to do it.  Luke hesitates, then roles flip and Yoda calls down Force lightning to burn the tree/books, and Luke tries to run into the burning tree to save them, only to be blown back by the fire.  Luke is, however, not only unharmed but not even singed. 

 

Then they chat about the meaninglessness of the books & the Jedi religion, but make a point to say how it's OK because Rey embodies all of it anyway.  So if it's so unimportant that they can burn it down, why is it important to note that the knowledge is safe within her? 

 

Yet another scene that seems like it either went through ten rewrites or was crafted by a disparate group of people with non-harmonious ideas.

[Enhance]

34 minutes ago, Mavric said:

OK.  That's a possibility.  So then what was the point of bringing back Yoda then?  To tell Luke something misleading at best and Luke was going to be (basically) out of the story in a few minutes anyway?  Seems more like  "Oh!  We could bring back Yoda as a Force Ghost.  How should we do that?" than really having it contribute to the story.

My understanding is that Luke had completely closed himself off from the Force. In doing so, he had closed himself off from seeing or speaking with Yoda (hence the remark about 'it's been a long time'). So, this was the first they had likely spoken to each other in years.

 

My other understanding in why they brought Yoda back was to help teach his former student a lesson in a moment of need. But, I think the only way you can appreciate Yoda's return in this moment is if you can appreciate the plot decisions leading up to it. In that context, Yoda's return makes sense. If you disagree with some of the preceding plot decisions then you may find this return superfluous.

[Mavric]

46 minutes ago, Enhance said:

My understanding is that Luke had completely closed himself off from the Force. In doing so, he had closed himself off from seeing or speaking with Yoda (hence the remark about 'it's been a long time'). So, this was the first they had likely spoken to each other in years.

 

My other understanding in why they brought Yoda back was to help teach his former student a lesson in a moment of need. But, I think the only way you can appreciate Yoda's return in this moment is if you can appreciate the plot decisions leading up to it. In that context, Yoda's return makes sense. If you disagree with some of the preceding plot decisions then you may find this return superfluous.

 

I guess I'm not sure which "plot decisions" leading up to that you might be referring to.  But my point is it doesn't lead to anything AFTER it happens.  The big argument was about destroying the books.  Luke was going to destroy them.  Yoda does "destroy" them.  But then they end up not destroyed after all.  So the whole conversation didn't really mean anything as far as the overall plot of the story goes.  And the only real reason for him to convince Luke of anything would be for Luke to finally come around and be the spark that everyone had been looking for for two movies.  Then one scene later he's gone.

 

No coherency.

[Enhance]

8 minutes ago, Mavric said:

I guess I'm not sure which "plot decisions" leading up to that you might be referring to.  But my point is it doesn't lead to anything AFTER it happens. The big argument was about destroying the books.  Luke was going to destroy them.  Yoda does "destroy" them.  But then they end up not destroyed after all.  So the whole conversation didn't really mean anything as far as the overall plot of the story goes.  And the only real reason for him to convince Luke of anything would be for Luke to finally come around and be the spark that everyone had been looking for for two movies.  Then one scene later he's gone.

 

No coherency.

I interpreted that scene as being a much larger conversation than being about stack of old Jedi texts, even though they do play a role. That may have been the 'physical' context of the scene, but I believe the real intent was to give Luke a push over the edge to help the Resistance and remember what he fights for. Hence 'we are what they grow beyond' and 'you did not remember your training.'

 

My line about 'plot decisions leading up to this' meant that if you disagreed with Luke's overall role and fall from grace in general then you're probably not going to find substantive value in this scene.

 

It should be noted too that I felt this scene was a tad superfluous and didn't have a completely coherent intent. 'No coherency' is hyperbolic in my opinion.

[Mavric]

3 minutes ago, Enhance said:

I interpreted that scene as being a much larger conversation than being about stack of old Jedi texts, even though they do play a role. That may have been the 'physical' context of the scene, but I believe the real intent was to give Luke a push over the edge to help the Resistance and remember what he fights for. Hence 'we are what they grow beyond' and 'you did not remember your training.'

 

Exactly.  That is exactly what it should have been.  But then he disappears one scene later without really doing anything but say goodbye to Leia and stall Ren to give them time to escape.  It should have been a major turning point.  Instead it was just an interesting side-note.

 

3 minutes ago, Enhance said:

It should be noted too that I felt this scene was a tad superfluous and didn't have a completely coherent intent. 'No coherency' is hyperbolic in my opinion.

 

It is only slightly coherent if you strain the parsing of Yoda's words to believe that he knew the texts were on the Falcon but just let Luke believe otherwise.  That's a possibility.  But it really doesn't make any sense why Yoda would go to all that just to basically deceive Luke.

[BigRedBuster]

Just saw this last night....very well done. 

[Enhance]

35 minutes ago, Mavric said:

It is only slightly coherent if you strain the parsing of Yoda's words to believe that he knew the texts were on the Falcon but just let Luke believe otherwise.  That's a possibility.  But it really doesn't make any sense why Yoda would go to all that just to basically deceive Luke.

Is it that much of a strain, though? I guess it wasn't for me (not trying to sound pompous there, btw). As I mentioned previously, I think Yoda knew she had taken the texts which is very believable given that he's a Force ghost.

 

As for misleading Luke, think of the flow of that scene. Luke approaches the tree, flame in hand. But, he hesitates at the last moment and I saw that as him deciding not to go through with it. Then, Yoda sets the tree on fire as a message to Luke to stop caring about some old books that really don't impact him. But, they still might help Rey on her journey to become a Jedi. Ultimately, for Luke, the books don't matter. Helping the Resistance does.

 

All that said, I do see your point of view. I think the whole thing with the books is sending mixed messages and the intent isn't wholly clear.

[knapplc]

This whole theme of cutting off the past seems like a bad idea for a new series whose whole foundation is the past. 

 

[Mavric]

12 minutes ago, Enhance said:

Is it that much of a strain, though? I guess it wasn't for me (not trying to sound pompous there, btw). As I mentioned previously, I think Yoda knew she had taken the texts which is very believable given that he's a Force ghost.

 

As for misleading Luke, think of the flow of that scene. Luke approaches the tree, flame in hand. But, he hesitates at the last moment and I saw that as him deciding not to go through with it. Then, Yoda sets the tree on fire as a message to Luke to stop caring about some old books that really don't impact him. But, they still might help Rey on her journey to become a Jedi. Ultimately, for Luke, the books don't matter. Helping the Resistance does.

 

All that said, I do see your point of view. I think the whole thing with the books is sending mixed messages and the intent isn't wholly clear.

 

The biggest question is "what does it change about the story if that scene is removed"?  If the answer is "really nothing" then it probably wasn't contributing much to the plot.

[Enhance]

16 minutes ago, Mavric said:

The biggest question is "what does it change about the story if that scene is removed"?  If the answer is "really nothing" then it probably wasn't contributing much to the plot.

I would argue removing that scene removes a fairly important moment of realization for Luke to pull his head out of his you know what. I just think the execution of said scene could've been better.

[knapplc]

19 minutes ago, Enhance said:

I would argue removing that scene removes a fairly important moment of realization for Luke to pull his head out of his you know what. I just think the execution of said scene could've been better.

 

Luke realized he had to help the Rebellion Resistance when R2 showed him the old message from Leia.  "Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope."

 

 

[Enhance]

5 minutes ago, knapplc said:

Luke realized he had to help the Rebellion Resistance when R2 showed him the old message from Leia.  "Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope."

Partially. He was obviously still conflicted about the Jedi throughout much of the rest of the movie, what he felt responsible for, etc.

[Landlord]

I did have a thought of the importance of Yoda's appearance when it seemed like Luke was already going to burn it all down anyways, so why was Yoda necessary?

 

I think if Luke did it, it would feed into the perceived weakness of his character - an impulsive act of angst and guilt and overreaction. But with Yoda showing up and doing it, it makes it seem like a more legitimate, proper, and wise decision. Luke going scorched earth on the history of the Jedi seems small-minded and reactionary out of his shame, but Yoda doing it speaks more to the mindset of, "The Jedi lost their way and the dogma of the order is what led to Vader/Palpatine, it's time to get back to the heart of what the Jedi were supposed to be."

 

The whole thing has a sort of vibe of the Protestant Reformation when the Catholic church got so lost in it's traditions.

 

 

Anyways, on a different note, I don't hold it against anyone for not enjoying TLJ or where we're at with the new trilogy as a whole. One thing that I think is true, though, is that despite the flaws of the newest movie, no other Star Wars film (at least from my relatively young experience with them) has generated so much deep discussion of the underlying themes, ideologies, and mythos of the Star Wars universe, and I think that's pretty cool.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Landlord

[Mavric]

26 minutes ago, Landlord said:

I did have a thought of the importance of Yoda's appearance when it seemed like Luke was already going to burn it all down anyways, so why was Yoda necessary?

 

I think if Luke did it, it would feed into the perceived weakness of his character - an impulsive act of angst and guilt and overreaction. But with Yoda showing up and doing it, it makes it seem like a more legitimate, proper, and wise decision. Luke going scorched earth on the history of the Jedi seems small-minded and reactionary out of his shame, but Yoda doing it speaks more to the mindset of, "The Jedi lost their way and the dogma of the order is what led to Vader/Palpatine, it's time to get back to the heart of what the Jedi were supposed to be."

 

The whole thing has a sort of vibe of the Protestant Reformation when the Catholic church got so lost in it's traditions.

 

Totally agree with this.  And that's what I THOUGHT they were doing with it.

 

Until the books showed up on the Falcon.  Then none of it made sense.