Star Wars: Episode VIII ***Speculation & Spoilers***

[whateveritis1224]

Thinking on it even more, I think these movies would have been better off being set 100 years after ROTJ.  Don't involve any of Luke, Leia, or Han.  You can keep the general beats, a Skywalker turning to the darkside and being the 2nd to a different empire.  A scavenger nobody, a stormtrooper who changes sides after experiencing the realities of the First Order.  You can have the resistance pushing back on the dormant but rising First Order.  You can have everything with TFA, but instead of the map to Luke, its the map to the First Jedi Temple.  The entire Jedi Order had been wiped out by Ren when he changed sides so Jedi are now just a myth.  So when Rey says that Luke was just a legend, it holds more weight because there's been a longer time and you don't have to learn that legends can disappoint.  You have Rey trying to learn how to be a Jedi with no teacher so Ren's stating of the fact that she needs a teacher makes even more sense because she has no one to assist her.  Main reason though will be to step out of the shadows of Luke, Leia, and Han so you can avoid the disappointment of having them show up and be less than stellar characters (though the acting has been fine throughout the 2 movies, really nobody terrible yet).

[Moiraine]

6 hours ago, knapplc said:

Another good review.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not watching that, 'cause Ben Shapiro is a butthole.

[Moiraine]

1 hour ago, whateveritis1224 said:

Thinking on it even more, I think these movies would have been better off being set 100 years after ROTJ.  Don't involve any of Luke, Leia, or Han.

I'm sure they'll be doing movies like that after this. Not necessarily in the future but about different stories in the SW universe. I want them to have it during the KOTOR time period and maybe even include some of those characters but I'm doubting that'll happen.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Moiraine

[JJ Husker]

3 hours ago, Landlord said:

The Force Awakens has a 93% on Rotten Tomatoes. Many (the majority?) superfans like to claim it's bad.

 

The Last Jedi has has a 91% on Rotten Tomatoes. Many (the majority?) superfans like to claim it's bad. 

 

Either the professionals are just suckers for anything Star Wars/Disney, or the fans bring too much expectation to the films. Or it's a good product of the craft of filmmaking, but isn't enjoyable enough as entertainment? Or something. 

 

Or, more accurately based on all that has been discussed here, it’s a poor product of the craft of filmmaking but is enjoyable enough as entertainment. Typically the professional critics praise technically well made movies that everyday Joes don’t want to see. Not sure what’s going on with TLJ but I can say pretty confidently that none of the Star Wars movies pass the usual litmus test of the pros. And good rotten tomato ratings usually mean it’s enjoyable viewing for the typical person and critics will tear it up.

[Landlord]

1 hour ago, Comfortably Numb said:

...it’s a poor product of the craft of filmmaking but is enjoyable enough as entertainment.

 

 

I'm not saying anything is objectively true or untrue, but the numbers don't support this claim. Critics are paid professionals (some obviously more qualified than others) to judge a craft's excellence, while audiences seek entertainment. Let's look at every other SW movie:

 

A New Hope - 93% RT // 96% Audience Score

Empire Strikes Back - 94% RT // 97% Audience Score

Return of the Jedi - 80% RT // 94% Audience Score

 

Phantom Menace - 55% RT // 59% Audience Score

Attack of the Clones - 66% RT // 57% Audience Score

Revenge of the Sith - 79% RT // 65% Audience Score

 

Does anyone really disagree with any of these, at least in relation to each other? My only minor potential argument would be that Ep II is worse than I, but both are quite poor. ANH I think is perhaps over ranked in hindsight, but very properly ranked considering it was so revolutionary. So the aggregates have been pretty much dead on up until VII and even more VIII. So, what gives? The simplest explanation, imo, is that the context of how these movies came out and how massive the IP is was inevitably going to make them divisive no matter what they did or where they went. 

 

That's not to say that The Last Jedi is flawless or even magnificent, even though I think it's quite good, but it is to say that I don't think Spielberg, Nolan, Kubrick, Scorsese, Hitchock, Tarantino, or any other magnificent all-time director could make a new/present time Star Wars movie that would be universally adored by the fanbase.

[Mavric]

6 hours ago, Landlord said:

The Force Awakens has a 93% on Rotten Tomatoes. Many (the majority?) superfans like to claim it's bad.

 

The Last Jedi has has a 91% on Rotten Tomatoes. Many (the majority?) superfans like to claim it's bad. 

 

Either the professionals are just suckers for anything Star Wars/Disney, or the fans bring too much expectation to the films. Or it's a good product of the craft of filmmaking, but isn't enjoyable enough as entertainment? Or something. 

 

 

Apparently TLJ has a lowere audience rating than TPM.  So there’s that.

 

I would say that they are simply focusing on different things. There are a lot of good things about it.  Pretty good acting all the way around.  Great special effects.  I didn’t pay a lot of attention to the score but it seemed up to usual Star Wars lofty standards.  Those are probably the things the “experts” look at the most.  They (probably, generally) don’t really care that the Luke on screen doesn’t really resemble the Luke they’ve know from other films.  They don’t really care that this is the second straight film to borrow EXTENSIVELY from a previous Star Wars film.  They don’t really care that the film insists on wasting large chunks of run time watching an unknown character ride an unknown beast through a casino and a field of corn when we could be finding out more about Snoke, Rey, Kylo or other characters that we’re trying to learn more about.

 

[JJ Husker]

2 hours ago, Landlord said:

 

 

....Let's look at every other SW movie:

 

A New Hope - 93% RT // 96% Audience Score

Empire Strikes Back - 94% RT // 97% Audience Score

Return of the Jedi - 80% RT // 94% Audience Score

 

Phantom Menace - 55% RT // 59% Audience Score

Attack of the Clones - 66% RT // 57% Audience Score

Revenge of the Sith - 79% RT // 65% Audience Score

 

Does anyone really disagree with any of these, at least in relation to each other? My only minor potential argument would be that Ep II is worse than I, but both are quite poor. ANH I think is perhaps over ranked in hindsight, but very properly ranked considering it was so revolutionary. So the aggregates have been pretty much dead on up until VII and even more VIII. So, what gives? The simplest explanation, imo, is that the context of how these movies came out and how massive the IP is was inevitably going to make them divisive no matter what they did or where they went. 

 

 

Wow, I really had no idea that the prequels were so lowly ranked compared to the original trilogy. I guess it aligns with my feelings on them (except I liked TPM). I’ve always kind of figured that Star Wars was in a category of its own but that may not be true. It just seems that typically the big blockbuster type movies have higher audience scores and lower critic ranks and, for the most part, I usually agree with the audience and not the critics when it comes to enjoying a movie even though I understand why some more boring films are much better made.

 

I pretty much have loved all the Star Wars movies but I sure have never thought they were stellar examples of the craft. Some of it is just the nature of the beast that is SW. The space opera genre probably shouldn’t have a top notch feel in some of these areas. I’ve always felt the dialogue, acting, writing, etc. was pretty cheesy and weak even while some aspects may have been well done but that is some of the appeal imo.  The only time I actually realize they are not particularly well made movies is when I really consider it in discussions like this one. Like I said, I really enjoyed TLJ but like all other SW movies I wouldn’t say it was exemplary of the craft of movie making and my main points of contention really deal with my expectations, preferences and things I simply feel could’ve been done better. In my mind, Star Wars has to be considered in a class by itself because it was so revolutionary and that can cause some pretty disparate approaches to critiquing it.

[Saunders]

Sam and Chris from the OWH Pick Six Podcast talked about the movie at the tail end of the latest episode (right around the 52 minute mark).

 

http://www.omaha.com/sports/podcasts/pick-six/pick-six-podcast-tanner-lee-and-nebraska-s-quarterback-future/article_6684aebe-ecbd-11e7-adc9-570dc7d834b2.html

 

Although I'm 10 years older than he was grew up watching the OT, Chris pretty much summed up my feelings of TLJ. Sam's description of Rey being Harry Potter + Hermoine is a perfect analogy, as was his comments about Rose.

[Enhance]

On 12/29/2017 at 11:19 PM, Mavric said:

Apparently TLJ has a lowere audience rating than TPM.  So there’s that.

 

I would say that they are simply focusing on different things. There are a lot of good things about it.  Pretty good acting all the way around.  Great special effects.  I didn’t pay a lot of attention to the score but it seemed up to usual Star Wars lofty standards.  Those are probably the things the “experts” look at the most.  They (probably, generally) don’t really care that the Luke on screen doesn’t really resemble the Luke they’ve know from other films.  They don’t really care that this is the second straight film to borrow EXTENSIVELY from a previous Star Wars film.  They don’t really care that the film insists on wasting large chunks of run time watching an unknown character ride an unknown beast through a casino and a field of corn when we could be finding out more about Snoke, Rey, Kylo or other characters that we’re trying to learn more about.

This suggests that most professional critics are negligent to the history of Star Wars, are not fans of the series, didn't grow up as fans and simply don't care or are oblivious to these concerns. My opinion would characterize this as disingenuous, though I also have nothing to back this up concretely. I believe they're attempting to criticize plot and structure as much as they are special effects and acting. If they don't get it, they're going to say something. Some professional critics have, in fact.

 

Although I wasn't a huge fan of the movie, I'm mostly convinced the severe drop in user score (and mostly positive professional reception) for this film is due to a large portion of the fan base having a problem with the story direction and how it didn't align with their expectations. The only other explanation is that critics just don't care about some of the things you mentioned and I have a hard time believing that.

 

Of course, I gave the movie a 2.5 (or 2) star on Rotten Tomatoes so I'm contributing to that negative fan score as much as anyone .

[zoogs]

Loved this analysis of Kylo Ren: https://www.themarysue.com/why-kylo-ren-is-the-perfect-villain-for-the-age-of-the-alt-right/

"ridiculous -- but also monstrous"
"not seduced, but actively courting [the dark side]"
"scared and desperate" -- "genuinely failed by the men...he was supposed to emulate"
"TFO: an ideology that tells him his rage and pain are the valid and just reactions to a sick world that needs to be burned clean"
"Allied himself to an old and established evil, but he thinks he's invented something new and powerful"
"Perhaps the most damning and crucial part of Kylo's characterization is that the good guys really, really want to believe in Kylo..."
(to this last: I don't think they shouldn't. I think Kylo has a choice. But he has chosen to make himself iredeemable. That probably could never have been any other way. But the good guys couldn't have done anything other than to try and believe in him. This is different bit different from the flawed, fawning portrayals of alt-right agitators including the current POTUS in popular media, but it's also uncomfortably similar.)

This last quote is from another author, Laurie Penny, and it's not about the movie but just as well could be: ..."hurting other people deliberately, in order to up-cycle their uncomfortable emotions, reselling the pain they can't bear to look at as a noble political crusade."

Additionally, here's a YT review of Kylo from someone who doesn't share my overall love for the film but *does* explain many of the same things about why Kylo is such a fascinating, effective villain:

 

 

Things that I loved in my second viewing:
-"I want to put a fist through this whole lousy, beautiful place." Rose Tico is my inspiration.
-Kylo, after crossing the Rubicon, the final word of his pitch to Rey is a desperate, begging "...please?"
-Finn and Rose pitching their plan to Poe. Finn talks over Rose, saying the same things. She has to fight her way through and he finally relents and lets her speak.
-Escaping on the fathiers, Finn holds onto Rose and not the other way around. 
-Finn thinks he's doing the right thing because he just wants to save Rey. I just want Rey to be safe, too. But Rose doesn't care, even if it's the Rey and the Finn: "You're selfish, and a traitor".
-Paige's sacrifice is so heart-rending. It underscores both the spirit of the rebels as well as Poe's stunningly irresponsible leadership at the start of the film. His disaster of a plan is going up in flames and there's a *lot* of blame in his voice as he screams "why aren't your bay doors open?" at someone doing her best to give her life for his defiant plan.
-"Godspeed, rebels."
-Hux was about to murder Kylo before he came to! I love this dynamic. Kylo brings him to heel, but Hux knows him too well to truly respect him. 
-Hux, incidentally, is probably the most competent person The First Order ever had, Snoke included. If Kylo had simply delegated the fight on the ground to Hux, the rebels would have been snuffed out. His humiliations aren't just comedic relief. They capture him as a capable guy just trying to navigate his way through a tough professional environment. Ofc, his profession is evil. The machinery of the First Order's empire creates an environment where this is what you become if you try to vault to the top with it. Hux had talents and ambition; if only they'd been directed elsewhere from a young age...
-"Blast that piece of junk, OUT OF THE SKY!"
-"Why did the Resistance send you? Who are you? Where are you from" The standard, self-assured hero: "Because I'm the best they have. I've kicked ass all my life in the desert sands of Jakku, because yeah, I lived the hard knocks life. I stole the Falcon from the jerk I was sold to, operated it better than Han frickin' Solo, and beat down Kylo Ren the first time I ever fought with a lightsaber. Because I'm a goddamn prodigy in the Force and you are gonna train me." Rey, because of course this is how she's been conditioned to minimize herself: "I'm from nowhere" and "I...something inside of me has always been there?...and now I'm frightened."
-Kylo turns his saber in his hand as he rotates Rey's next to Snoke. 
-Kylo getting his s#!tty, fizzing saber stuck inside one of the Praetorian guards, leading him to the precarious situation Rey has to bail him out of. Ha!
-Holdo's crew knows what she is doing (obviously -- they weren't readying the transports with "are we going to cloak these?" and "do we have a destination" unknown). When Poe barges in and demands answers, he sees them fueling the transports. He doesn't give Holdo a chance to speak before losing all of his s#!t, kicking things on the bridge and screaming that she is a traitor. Poe's lesson is a profound one, and it's for the audience as much as for him: don't assume that women don't know what the hell they're doing. And also, realize that dealing with that is so much a part of the every day for even the most accomplished of women. Holdo: "Yeah, I know your type." She's...as effective and graceful with handling this as could be expected, I think, but it's still something that is taxing. 

 

This part of the movie was inadvertently spoiled for me, so I had to think through this a little on the second viewing. (I saw a tweet that said, "TLJ shows that women are better leaders"). But Holdo was legitimately portrayed as a bit of a villain to our daring, dashing flyboy hero -- who had spawned his own rescue op, the kind that usually succeeds at the last minute. It doesn't, and we have this crushing shot of Poe realizing its failure just before Leia blasts down the door and sets him in his place. Poe is going to be crowned a leader, and it was so important that his journey of learning played out this way. He had flaws -- namely, an inability to take this girly-looking unfamiliar female commander seriously -- but he learned from her and Leia. Who incidentally turn out to be far better masters and mentors than Snoke, or Luke. A completely sympathetic portrayal of Holdo from the start wouldn't have done.

 

(Luke may be forgiven for having the weight of the galaxy upon him and having to bear that alone. Wonderful read on that: https://www.zacbertschy.com/blog/2017/12/29/my-hero-luke-skywalker)

 

Things I want to see in Episode IX:
-Kylo Ren introduced Emperor-style (i.e, that Empire scene) with the Vader theme. He's well and truly achieved everything he wants now. He's still ridiculous, and incompetent, and fragile inside -- but he has all the trappings and the prestige he ever wanted. Does it satisfy him? Not really.
-Rey keeps developing and ascending, while Kylo stays the same. This is his humiliation. He thinks he's making it to the top, but it's so far from the truth.
-I want to see Rey get a green lightsaber. I think it suits her (being in the mold of Yoda or Qui-Gonn, or Luke) and the color change is an effective way to convey her advance. It also puts her in Luke's category, not Anakin's.
-I also wouldn't mind yellow. That'd be pretty cool!
-Poe/Finn. Make this happen, guys, c'mon! 
-Don't make Rey's arc culminate in a love story. There are good ways to go about that, though, I guess. I think I'd just be happier if it didn't. A male and female lead exchanging a "hi" or a "hug" creates the expectation of romance, and it'd be great to subvert that with a message of "friendship is just as meaningful".
-A lot more Rose Tico.

 

I don't feel as strongly about these things (sans Rose Tico) as I did with my wants for Episode VIII. Rian Johnson did a really phenomenal job -- I'm a little sad he's not staying for the last one. But I'm so relieved it's not Colin Treverrow. I like JJ, but I also wish they'd take this opportunity to hand it off to a different voice. There's such a deficit of women, people of color, and their intersection in directorship of major films. One day!
 

[huKSer]

39 minutes ago, zoogs said:

Loved this analysis of Kylo Ren: https://www.themarysue.com/why-kylo-ren-is-the-perfect-villain-for-the-age-of-the-alt-right/

"ridiculous -- but also monstrous"
"not seduced, but actively courting [the dark side]"
"scared and desperate" -- "genuinely failed by the men...he was supposed to emulate"
"TFO: an ideology that tells him his rage and pain are the valid and just reactions to a sick world that needs to be burned clean"
"Allied himself to an old and established evil, but he thinks he's invented something new and powerful"
"Perhaps the most damning and crucial part of Kylo's characterization is that the good guys really, really want to believe in Kylo..."
(to this last: I don't think they shouldn't. I think Kylo has a choice. But he has chosen to make himself iredeemable. That probably could never have been any other way. But the good guys couldn't have done anything other than to try and believe in him. This is different bit different from the flawed, fawning portrayals of alt-right agitators including the current POTUS in popular media, but it's also uncomfortably similar.)

This last quote is from another author, Laurie Penny, and it's not about the movie but just as well could be: ..."hurting other people deliberately, in order to up-cycle their uncomfortable emotions, reselling the pain they can't bear to look at as a noble political crusade."

Additionally, here's a YT review of Kylo from someone who doesn't share my overall love for the film but *does* explain many of the same things about why Kylo is such a fascinating, effective villain:

 

 

Things that I loved in my second viewing:
-"I want to put a fist through this whole lousy, beautiful place." Rose Tico is my inspiration.
-Kylo, after crossing the Rubicon, the final word of his pitch to Rey is a desperate, begging "...please?"
-Finn and Rose pitching their plan to Poe. Finn talks over Rose, saying the same things. She has to fight her way through and he finally relents and lets her speak.
-Escaping on the fathiers, Finn holds onto Rose and not the other way around. 
-Finn thinks he's doing the right thing because he just wants to save Rey. I just want Rey to be safe, too. But Rose doesn't care, even if it's the Rey and the Finn: "You're selfish, and a traitor".
-Paige's sacrifice is so heart-rending. It underscores both the spirit of the rebels as well as Poe's stunningly irresponsible leadership at the start of the film. His disaster of a plan is going up in flames and there's a *lot* of blame in his voice as he screams "why aren't your bay doors open?" at someone doing her best to give her life for his defiant plan.
-"Godspeed, rebels."
-Hux was about to murder Kylo before he came to! I love this dynamic. Kylo brings him to heel, but Hux knows him too well to truly respect him. 
-Hux, incidentally, is probably the most competent person The First Order ever had, Snoke included. If Kylo had simply delegated the fight on the ground to Hux, the rebels would have been snuffed out. His humiliations aren't just comedic relief. They capture him as a capable guy just trying to navigate his way through a tough professional environment. Ofc, his profession is evil. The machinery of the First Order's empire creates an environment where this is what you become if you try to vault to the top with it. Hux had talents and ambition; if only they'd been directed elsewhere from a young age...
-"Blast that piece of junk, OUT OF THE SKY!"
-"Why did the Resistance send you? Who are you? Where are you from" The standard, self-assured hero: "Because I'm the best they have. I've kicked ass all my life in the desert sands of Jakku, because yeah, I lived the hard knocks life. I stole the Falcon from the jerk I was sold to, operated it better than Han frickin' Solo, and beat down Kylo Ren the first time I ever fought with a lightsaber. Because I'm a goddamn prodigy in the Force and you are gonna train me." Rey, because of course this is how she's been conditioned to minimize herself: "I'm from nowhere" and "I...something inside of me has always been there?...and now I'm frightened."
-Kylo turns his saber in his hand as he rotates Rey's next to Snoke. 
-Kylo getting his s#!tty, fizzing saber stuck inside one of the Praetorian guards, leading him to the precarious situation Rey has to bail him out of. Ha!
-Holdo's crew knows what she is doing (obviously -- they weren't readying the transports with "are we going to cloak these?" and "do we have a destination" unknown). When Poe barges in and demands answers, he sees them fueling the transports. He doesn't give Holdo a chance to speak before losing all of his s#!t, kicking things on the bridge and screaming that she is a traitor. Poe's lesson is a profound one, and it's for the audience as much as for him: don't assume that women don't know what the hell they're doing. And also, realize that dealing with that is so much a part of the every day for even the most accomplished of women. Holdo: "Yeah, I know your type." She's...as effective and graceful with handling this as could be expected, I think, but it's still something that is taxing. 

 

This part of the movie was inadvertently spoiled for me, so I had to think through this a little on the second viewing. (I saw a tweet that said, "TLJ shows that women are better leaders"). But Holdo was legitimately portrayed as a bit of a villain to our daring, dashing flyboy hero -- who had spawned his own rescue op, the kind that usually succeeds at the last minute. It doesn't, and we have this crushing shot of Poe realizing its failure just before Leia blasts down the door and sets him in his place. Poe is going to be crowned a leader, and it was so important that his journey of learning played out this way. He had flaws -- namely, an inability to take this girly-looking unfamiliar female commander seriously -- but he learned from her and Leia. Who incidentally turn out to be far better masters and mentors than Snoke, or Luke. A completely sympathetic portrayal of Holdo from the start wouldn't have done.

 

(Luke may be forgiven for having the weight of the galaxy upon him and having to bear that alone. Wonderful read on that: https://www.zacbertschy.com/blog/2017/12/29/my-hero-luke-skywalker)

 

Things I want to see in Episode IX:
-Kylo Ren introduced Emperor-style (i.e, that Empire scene) with the Vader theme. He's well and truly achieved everything he wants now. He's still ridiculous, and incompetent, and fragile inside -- but he has all the trappings and the prestige he ever wanted. Does it satisfy him? Not really.
-Rey keeps developing and ascending, while Kylo stays the same. This is his humiliation. He thinks he's making it to the top, but it's so far from the truth.
-I want to see Rey get a green lightsaber. I think it suits her (being in the mold of Yoda or Qui-Gonn, or Luke) and the color change is an effective way to convey her advance. It also puts her in Luke's category, not Anakin's.
-I also wouldn't mind yellow. That'd be pretty cool!
-Poe/Finn. Make this happen, guys, c'mon! 
-Don't make Rey's arc culminate in a love story. There are good ways to go about that, though, I guess. I think I'd just be happier if it didn't. A male and female lead exchanging a "hi" or a "hug" creates the expectation of romance, and it'd be great to subvert that with a message of "friendship is just as meaningful".
-A lot more Rose Tico.

 

I don't feel as strongly about these things (sans Rose Tico) as I did with my wants for Episode VIII. Rian Johnson did a really phenomenal job -- I'm a little sad he's not staying for the last one. But I'm so relieved it's not Colin Treverrow. I like JJ, but I also wish they'd take this opportunity to hand it off to a different voice. There's such a deficit of women, people of color, and their intersection in directorship of major films. One day!
 

 

Was this co-authored by 84 Husker Law?

[Making Chimichangas]

4 hours ago, zoogs said:

Loved this analysis of Kylo Ren: https://www.themarysue.com/why-kylo-ren-is-the-perfect-villain-for-the-age-of-the-alt-right/

"ridiculous -- but also monstrous"
"not seduced, but actively courting [the dark side]"
"scared and desperate" -- "genuinely failed by the men...he was supposed to emulate"
"TFO: an ideology that tells him his rage and pain are the valid and just reactions to a sick world that needs to be burned clean"
"Allied himself to an old and established evil, but he thinks he's invented something new and powerful"
"Perhaps the most damning and crucial part of Kylo's characterization is that the good guys really, really want to believe in Kylo..."
(to this last: I don't think they shouldn't. I think Kylo has a choice. But he has chosen to make himself iredeemable. That probably could never have been any other way. But the good guys couldn't have done anything other than to try and believe in him. This is different bit different from the flawed, fawning portrayals of alt-right agitators including the current POTUS in popular media, but it's also uncomfortably similar.)

This last quote is from another author, Laurie Penny, and it's not about the movie but just as well could be: ..."hurting other people deliberately, in order to up-cycle their uncomfortable emotions, reselling the pain they can't bear to look at as a noble political crusade."

Additionally, here's a YT review of Kylo from someone who doesn't share my overall love for the film but *does* explain many of the same things about why Kylo is such a fascinating, effective villain:

 

 

Things that I loved in my second viewing:
-"I want to put a fist through this whole lousy, beautiful place." Rose Tico is my inspiration.
-Kylo, after crossing the Rubicon, the final word of his pitch to Rey is a desperate, begging "...please?"
-Finn and Rose pitching their plan to Poe. Finn talks over Rose, saying the same things. She has to fight her way through and he finally relents and lets her speak.
-Escaping on the fathiers, Finn holds onto Rose and not the other way around. 
-Finn thinks he's doing the right thing because he just wants to save Rey. I just want Rey to be safe, too. But Rose doesn't care, even if it's the Rey and the Finn: "You're selfish, and a traitor".
-Paige's sacrifice is so heart-rending. It underscores both the spirit of the rebels as well as Poe's stunningly irresponsible leadership at the start of the film. His disaster of a plan is going up in flames and there's a *lot* of blame in his voice as he screams "why aren't your bay doors open?" at someone doing her best to give her life for his defiant plan.
-"Godspeed, rebels."
-Hux was about to murder Kylo before he came to! I love this dynamic. Kylo brings him to heel, but Hux knows him too well to truly respect him. 
-Hux, incidentally, is probably the most competent person The First Order ever had, Snoke included. If Kylo had simply delegated the fight on the ground to Hux, the rebels would have been snuffed out. His humiliations aren't just comedic relief. They capture him as a capable guy just trying to navigate his way through a tough professional environment. Ofc, his profession is evil. The machinery of the First Order's empire creates an environment where this is what you become if you try to vault to the top with it. Hux had talents and ambition; if only they'd been directed elsewhere from a young age...
-"Blast that piece of junk, OUT OF THE SKY!"
-"Why did the Resistance send you? Who are you? Where are you from" The standard, self-assured hero: "Because I'm the best they have. I've kicked ass all my life in the desert sands of Jakku, because yeah, I lived the hard knocks life. I stole the Falcon from the jerk I was sold to, operated it better than Han frickin' Solo, and beat down Kylo Ren the first time I ever fought with a lightsaber. Because I'm a goddamn prodigy in the Force and you are gonna train me." Rey, because of course this is how she's been conditioned to minimize herself: "I'm from nowhere" and "I...something inside of me has always been there?...and now I'm frightened."
-Kylo turns his saber in his hand as he rotates Rey's next to Snoke. 
-Kylo getting his s#!tty, fizzing saber stuck inside one of the Praetorian guards, leading him to the precarious situation Rey has to bail him out of. Ha!
-Holdo's crew knows what she is doing (obviously -- they weren't readying the transports with "are we going to cloak these?" and "do we have a destination" unknown). When Poe barges in and demands answers, he sees them fueling the transports. He doesn't give Holdo a chance to speak before losing all of his s#!t, kicking things on the bridge and screaming that she is a traitor. Poe's lesson is a profound one, and it's for the audience as much as for him: don't assume that women don't know what the hell they're doing. And also, realize that dealing with that is so much a part of the every day for even the most accomplished of women. Holdo: "Yeah, I know your type." She's...as effective and graceful with handling this as could be expected, I think, but it's still something that is taxing. 

 

This part of the movie was inadvertently spoiled for me, so I had to think through this a little on the second viewing. (I saw a tweet that said, "TLJ shows that women are better leaders"). But Holdo was legitimately portrayed as a bit of a villain to our daring, dashing flyboy hero -- who had spawned his own rescue op, the kind that usually succeeds at the last minute. It doesn't, and we have this crushing shot of Poe realizing its failure just before Leia blasts down the door and sets him in his place. Poe is going to be crowned a leader, and it was so important that his journey of learning played out this way. He had flaws -- namely, an inability to take this girly-looking unfamiliar female commander seriously -- but he learned from her and Leia. Who incidentally turn out to be far better masters and mentors than Snoke, or Luke. A completely sympathetic portrayal of Holdo from the start wouldn't have done.

 

(Luke may be forgiven for having the weight of the galaxy upon him and having to bear that alone. Wonderful read on that: https://www.zacbertschy.com/blog/2017/12/29/my-hero-luke-skywalker)

 

Things I want to see in Episode IX:
-Kylo Ren introduced Emperor-style (i.e, that Empire scene) with the Vader theme. He's well and truly achieved everything he wants now. He's still ridiculous, and incompetent, and fragile inside -- but he has all the trappings and the prestige he ever wanted. Does it satisfy him? Not really.
-Rey keeps developing and ascending, while Kylo stays the same. This is his humiliation. He thinks he's making it to the top, but it's so far from the truth.
-I want to see Rey get a green lightsaber. I think it suits her (being in the mold of Yoda or Qui-Gonn, or Luke) and the color change is an effective way to convey her advance. It also puts her in Luke's category, not Anakin's.
-I also wouldn't mind yellow. That'd be pretty cool!
-Poe/Finn. Make this happen, guys, c'mon! 
-Don't make Rey's arc culminate in a love story. There are good ways to go about that, though, I guess. I think I'd just be happier if it didn't. A male and female lead exchanging a "hi" or a "hug" creates the expectation of romance, and it'd be great to subvert that with a message of "friendship is just as meaningful".
-A lot more Rose Tico.

 

I don't feel as strongly about these things (sans Rose Tico) as I did with my wants for Episode VIII. Rian Johnson did a really phenomenal job -- I'm a little sad he's not staying for the last one. But I'm so relieved it's not Colin Treverrow. I like JJ, but I also wish they'd take this opportunity to hand it off to a different voice. There's such a deficit of women, people of color, and their intersection in directorship of major films. One day!
 

 

I'd +1 this ^^^ a hundred times if I could.

 

I have seen The Last Jedi Three times now, and it gets better each time I see it. 

 

One of the things, as Zoogs mentioned, was Poe's development by the end of this film.  In the beginning of this film he disobeyed a direct order and continued the assault on the Dreadnaught which resulted in far more catastrophic losses than were necessary.  Yes the Resistance scored a win taking down that Dreadnaught, but the lost the overall battle.  At the end of the film, Poe is the one who realizes what Luke Skywalker is doing and dissuades Finn from rushing out to help Luke, essentially learning from his previous mistake and not letting his pride err his judgment.

 

And Finn talking over Rose...That scene was, in essence, some of the sharpest political commentary within the film as a whole because it gets directly to the heart of sexism without saying a word.  

 

Luke Skywalker, only after having spoken with Yoda, realizes that failure is only bad if you learn nothing from it.  I've read a lot of opinions from people who complain that TLJ "...killed the Luke Skywalker I know and love..."  To me, this is the very essence of immaturity and not truly understanding why the film took this direction.  It's partly because the intent was to hand off Star Wars to the newest generation of kids, but to also demonstrate what can happen to someone who has such great success and then monumental failure.  As Luke points out, being the hero, saving the galaxy, redeeming Darth Vader, only to see the Empire rise again and see most of his students killed by one of their classmates.  The guilt he felt for not seeing what Ben Solo was becoming, or denying it until it was too late.  This scene is also important because it reinforces the idea that pride and hubris can make one blind to their own imperfections and faults. 

 

And Benecio Del Toro's character, DJ (I think?  I'm terrible with names in real life and this extends to remembering characters names in films) was the most "human" character of all.  Will help you if the price is right, but will also turn rat to save his own skin in the blink of an eye.  He's the ultimate cynic.  Someone who sees through the propaganda and doesn't "join up", instead preferring to side with whatever, and whomever, will benefit him the most.  It's the ultimate nihilistic approach.

 

Vice Admiral Hodo...In retrospect, Laura Dern played that character beautifully.  As stated above and earler, I love the fact that there were hints and or suggestions that she might be a traitor.  The Laura did a marvelous job at showing the complexities and nuance of this character.  And in the end, jumping to lightspeed and essentially splitting Snoke's ship in half was a scene so unexpected and out of nowhere that even on the 3rd viewing it still amazes me.  It's so amazing because, in retrospect, there is no conceivable way she could pilot that cruiser, and man those guns to make a fight.

 

And finally a thought about Rey...Near the end of the movie when she closed the ramp to the Falcon...I'm not sure if that was meant to mean she was cutting the Force link with Kylo or if it was meant to show that she now knew what her place was and it was time to get there.  It might have been both.  It was a subtle action, but incredibly powerful, and a logical step for her character to make.

 

As far as Episode IX...(I've said this earlier within this thread)...the ONLY expectation I have for Episode IX is to see the most epic Force/Lightsaber/Battle of Wills between Kylo and Rey that has ever been put on screen.  The Last Jedi really, REALLY built up the idea that Rey and Kylo both have such extreme raw power that it even scared a Jedi as powerful as Luke Skywalker.  To waste that, and not put something onscreen which fleshes out that idea, would be a terrible disservice to the fans and franchise.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Making Chimichangas

[Making Chimichangas]

@zoogs, Do you think Patty Jenkins (Wonder Woman) or Kathryn Bigelow (The Hurt Locker) could do a Star wars film?  Especially one that going to need to deliver in Episode IX what VII and VIII have spent two films setting up?

[Making Chimichangas]

So...

 

Apparently #KyloRenChallenge is a thing: 

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/celebrity/john-mayer-goes-shirtless-for-supernumberkylorenchallenge-inspired-by-adam-drivers-viral-star-wars-scene/ar-BBHzQDQ?li=AA2qN5v&ocid=spartandhp

 

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Making Chimichangas

[zoogs]

Dude, Kylo Ren looks freakin weird shirtless. I was not okay with that scene! Haha. I do love the parodies that came out of it though. Something about the angle and his waist-high pants...it's so interesting that in every other shot he manages to look like he has a slim and not totally hulked out figure. Turns out he wasn't joking when he went undercover on Starkiller Base, Kylo is shredded.

 

@Making Chimichangastbh, I don't know. I haven't seen Wonder Woman...and I wasn't interested to begin with, so I can't give that movie a fair shake. I read a review that made it seem like what I expected, and not in a good way (too much of Wonder Woman's protagonist stature was centered around her appearance; kickass fight scenes with bystander dudes observing, "I don't know whether to be frightened or turned on." Come on...) I enjoyed Hurt Locker but don't think I have seen anything else by her. And of course, I don't mean to say a woman director is a requirement, but it's a serious opportunity. There are just little things that don't come out without a different perspective, and JJ has already helmed one film in this series. I specifically was thinking that a woman of color director would be awesome. I want to see her take on this very diverse cast, with both John Boyega and Kelly Marie Tran among the leads. 

 

One thing I want to say about Rian, though. I read this wonderful interview of Kelly where she talks about how the genesis of the Rose character was Rian wanting someone his ten-year old self could relate to. That kind of blows me away, that this director takes this approach but doesn't automatically end up with a young, white male character. That's a default, which of course also isn't to say it's wrong -- but it does hopefully convey why this difference was so meaningful. It was just plain weird to see East Asian characters feature so prominently in this movie  (Paige, too -- she was the dramatic climax of the opening act). Star Wars is set in a galaxy far, far away, populated by alien creatures of all sorts and mostly white people plus Lando and Mace.

 

Hollywood in general is like this. It's especially weird to see an Asian person play a normal, leading character on the big screen(Kelly talks about her awareness of this in a lot of her interviews; she is absolutely delightful and I love her). Not a kung fu master, not a sex symbol/love accessory, not some geeky guy who of course gets the "there must be some sort of thermal oscillator" line (lookin' at you, TFA...). I sincerely hope Rose's performance and lines such as "I want to put a fist through this whole lousy, beautiful place" resonate, and a part of this is just so that the most culturally prevalent line uttered by a Vietnamese woman on the American film screen is not "sucky sucky? Me love you long time." 

--

DJ's character is very interesting. I learned after watching some YouTube videos that his name is a callback to his slogan ("Don't Join!"). On the one hand, I feel the movie serves him up in order to repudiate his philosophy. Watching a Benicio del Toro interview, though, I understand that we're meant to have some pity for this guy, too. Yes, he isn't a rebel and on some level his choice of no choice is condemnable given the stakes. On the other, this guy was in a jail cell in some trashy city. He signed up with the promise of escape. He's not a real part of the rebellion and he really tried to help -- but they got caught. He screwed them. But why would he die for their cause? There's more to process here, and it's very interesting.