Healthcare Reform

[RedDenver]

5 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Sure, the US mortality is higher than the EU in drug related deaths which doesn’t really show how well a healthcare system operates.  All it’s shows is the US has more hard core drug users than the EU that kill themselves. 

But how much does that actually effect the mortality rates? And how much of the US drug deaths are related to prescription drugs that is an off-shoot of the healthcare system?

[commando]

6 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Sure, the US mortality is higher than the EU in drug related deaths which doesn’t really show how well a healthcare system operates.  All it’s shows is the US has more hard core drug users than the EU that kill themselves. 

i think a huge difference is the number of gun deaths in the united states rather than the drug use.

[commando]

Just now, RedDenver said:

But how much does that actually effect the mortality rates? And how much of the US drug deaths are related to prescription drugs that is an off-shoot of the healthcare system?

and this year the large number of people who refuse to vaccinate themselves against a pandemic for political reasons?

[BigRedBuster]

10 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Sure, the US mortality is higher than the EU in drug related deaths which doesn’t really show how well a healthcare system operates.  All it’s shows is the US has more hard core drug users than the EU that kill themselves. 

Actually, the stat you showed (not sure where you got it) doesn't show that.  You would need to know how many per million are hard core drug users to know that.

 

Let's say, for argument's sake, the US and the EU both have 200,000 per million hard core drug users, then it would appear that the EU health care is much better.

[Archy1221]

14 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

The fact is, our healthcare is outrageously expensive.

Agree here.  Definitely Complicated to figure out how to reduce the costs without reducing outcomes.  Something like 70-80% our healthcare dollars are spent on the final few years of our lives.  
 

We could drastically reduce our expenditures if we did more palliative care instead of maximizing end of life, but say that to someone’s kid, mom, or grandma who they want to keep alive for as long as possible until there are no more options available.  

[BigRedBuster]

Just now, Archy1221 said:

Agree here.  Definitely Complicated to figure out how to reduce the costs without reducing outcomes.  Something like 70-80% our healthcare dollars are spent on the final few years of our lives.  
 

We could drastically reduce our expenditures if we did more palliative care instead of maximizing end of life, but say that to someone’s kid, mom, or grandma who they want to keep alive for as long as possible until there are no more options available.  

COMPLETELY AGREE!!!

 

Right now, I'm dealing with two elderly parents and my elderly father-in-law.  This is going to sound cold, but it's the truth.  All three would have been better off dying about 5-10 years ago.  BUT...those last 5-10 years have been so friggen expensive.  And....it just keeps getting more expensive. They're not enjoying life.  We aren't enjoying time with them.  It sucks.

[Archy1221]

10 minutes ago, RedDenver said:

But how much does that actually effect the mortality rates?

I don’t know, but the researchers should have looked into it if they were making a good faith effort to compare apples to apples. (Maybe they did and just didn’t show it ) Along with the other things I listed and probably more that I didn’t think of.  

[Archy1221]

11 minutes ago, commando said:

i think a huge difference is the number of gun deaths in the united states rather than the drug use.

Agree here that gun deaths should be normalized when accounting for mortality rates with the sole purpose of evaluating healthcare systems.  
 

Less gun deaths would lead to higher mortality rate.  

[Archy1221]

5 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

Actually, the stat you showed (not sure where you got it) doesn't show that.  You would need to know how many per million are hard core drug users to know that.

 

Let's say, for argument's sake, the US and the EU both have 200,000 per million hard core drug users, then it would appear that the EU health care is much better.

You are right that we would need to know the number of drug users to find the drug overdose death rate amongst drug users to see which country is worse.  
 

however, the drug overdose death rate of US 210 per million and EU’s 20 per million is the number that affects mortality rate, not the number of drug users.  

I guess you could evaluate the overdose rate/overdose death rate that was admitted to ER  for each country to see how well each type of system has on survival rates. 

[Archy1221]

@RedDenver appreciate the discussion of this topic.  I am only discounting the study and it’s conclusions because of the lack of comparables in deaths that aren’t really related to how well a health system operates. 
 

I truly believe that if case study patient A enters a hospital or is being being treated out patient in the US, that patient will have as good or better outcomes than if the same comparable patient enters a hospital or treated outpatient in the UK, Germany, Italy, etc…

 

I think where we can agree is that we fall short of nutrition aspect of healthcare and possibly, drug rehab, though the prevalence of drug use and free will to enter leave rehab in the US may make that point moot.  
 

Access to preventative care has gotten better, can always improve, but the patient has to be an active participant in this process.  I hear all the time how people have insurance, but don’t go to there yearly check ups in their 20’s-50’s.   Next thing you know, they have stage 4 cancer, or on the table for angioplasty or a stent, or dead from an MI

[BigRedBuster]

17 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

truly believe that if case study patient A enters a hospital or is being being treated out patient in the US, that patient will have as good or better outcomes than if the same comparable patient enters a hospital or treated outpatient in the UK, Germany, Italy, etc…

What do you base this on?

[Archy1221]

21 minutes ago, BigRedBuster said:

What do you base this on?

Purely Anecdotal based on a conversations who have practice in EU countries and in the American system.  I have done no scientific study, nor could their be one unless someone did chart reviews I guess for comparable’s. 

[RedDenver]

59 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

@RedDenver appreciate the discussion of this topic.  I am only discounting the study and it’s conclusions because of the lack of comparables in deaths that aren’t really related to how well a health system operates. 
 

I truly believe that if case study patient A enters a hospital or is being being treated out patient in the US, that patient will have as good or better outcomes than if the same comparable patient enters a hospital or treated outpatient in the UK, Germany, Italy, etc…

So you're discounting the study because you want more fine grained details, but you're perfectly fine with your own personal belief in something without any supporting evidence, let alone the fine grained details you're asking for in the other case? I get being skeptical of the conclusions of the study but having the opposite conclusions based on little to nothing seems... hypocritical is too strong... maybe unbalanced? illogical? You get what I'm trying to say, I think.

[RedDenver]

1 hour ago, commando said:

and this year the large number of people who refuse to vaccinate themselves against a pandemic for political reasons?

It's a good point, but the data in the study I'm referencing was from before the pandemic.

[BigRedBuster]

4 minutes ago, Archy1221 said:

Purely Anecdotal based on a conversations who have practice in EU countries and in the American system.  I have done no scientific study, nor could their be one unless someone did chart reviews I guess for comparable’s. 

Understand. In large part, unfortunately, that’s all we have. 
 

It just reminded me of a political talking point I constantly heard when I was a Fox News/Rush junky. 
 

Everything is great in ‘merica. We would never want to do anything like those Euros.