The 2024 Presidential Election- The LONG General Election

[Born N Bled Red]

7 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

 

I would have to see these campaign ads that celebrate success stories of welfare queens. Whose ads do this? National ads or local? That seems utterly bizarre - but I'll admit I haven't had cable in years and don't watch commercials. 

   --- National - rural local races generally don't run ads, if they even have a democratic challenger at all. 

 

The weird thing is that being angry at the success of minorities isn't seen as a form of racism. It's an us/them mentality. How is that not racism?

   ---- The anger isn't driven by their race. You can be envious of someone of a different color for reasons other than their color. The us/them is urban/rural and the idea, they got help, I didn't. 

 

And if these sentiments are the talk of the town, and around the country (per your testament), why don't these angry rural voters take their concerns to the people they actually vote for? Republicans can get rural broadband done. Why blame Democrats? 

 ---- Like I said, Republicans don't have to accomplish anything economically. They have the social issues (abortion, guns, immigration) and they have the added bonus of angering people who are seen as taunting rural voters.

 

To me, that's all (false) messaging that Democrats can't possibly overcome. It's a caricature, and rural voters have wholly bought into it. 

 ---- It can be overcome- the Democrats just have to want to prioritize it and then follow through. 

 

 

I would have to see these campaign ads that celebrate success stories of welfare queens. Whose ads do this? National ads or local? That seems utterly bizarre - but I'll admit I haven't had cable in years and don't watch commercials. 

   --- National - rural local races generally don't run ads, if they even have a democratic challenger at all. 

 

The weird thing is that being angry at the success of minorities isn't seen as a form of racism. It's an us/them mentality. How is that not racism?

   ---- The anger isn't driven by their race. You can be envious of someone of a different color for reasons other than their color. The us/them is urban/rural and the idea, they got help, I didn't. 

 

And if these sentiments are the talk of the town, and around the country (per your testament), why don't these angry rural voters take their concerns to the people they actually vote for? Republicans can get rural broadband done. Why blame Democrats? 

 ---- Like I said, Republicans don't have to accomplish anything economically. They have the social issues (abortion, guns, immigration) and they have the added bonus of angering people who are seen as taunting rural voters.

 

To me, that's all (false) messaging that Democrats can't possibly overcome. It's a caricature, and rural voters have wholly bought into it. 

 ---- It can be overcome- the Democrats just have to want to prioritize it and then follow through. 

[knapplc]

3 minutes ago, Born N Bled Red said:

 

 

I would have to see these campaign ads that celebrate success stories of welfare queens. Whose ads do this? National ads or local? That seems utterly bizarre - but I'll admit I haven't had cable in years and don't watch commercials. 

   --- National - rural local races generally don't run ads, if they even have a democratic challenger at all. 

 

The weird thing is that being angry at the success of minorities isn't seen as a form of racism. It's an us/them mentality. How is that not racism?

   ---- The anger isn't driven by their race. You can be envious of someone of a different color for reasons other than their color. The us/them is urban/rural and the idea, they got help, I didn't. 

 

And if these sentiments are the talk of the town, and around the country (per your testament), why don't these angry rural voters take their concerns to the people they actually vote for? Republicans can get rural broadband done. Why blame Democrats? 

 ---- Like I said, Republicans don't have to accomplish anything economically. They have the social issues (abortion, guns, immigration) and they have the added bonus of angering people who are seen as taunting rural voters.

 

To me, that's all (false) messaging that Democrats can't possibly overcome. It's a caricature, and rural voters have wholly bought into it. 

 ---- It can be overcome- the Democrats just have to want to prioritize it and then follow through. 

 

Whose national ads celebrate this? I have to see this. Please link one or two or a dozen.

 

It is race-driven. I see it every single day. Every day.

 

If Republicans don't have to do anything, and rural voters are pre-disposed to believe that they are being "taunted" by others' success, you've already disproven the notion that Democrats can do anything to overcome this. 

 

Literally the only thing these voters are responding to from their party leadership is emotion. So to combat that, Democrats have to stop being Democrats and become Republicans. And that's not going to happen, nor should it, nor should anyone expect it.

 

That's the problem here - your expectations are completely unrealistic. None of this is going to happen.

[Born N Bled Red]

8 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

It has to be a two-way street. There can't possibly be local representation if rural voters won't support someone, no matter what they do or say, if there's a D beside their name.

 

This is the huge disconnect in this conversation. It seems you want the Democrats to fix everything. They simply can't, mostly because rural voters won't even let them have a chance. 

 

That's why you've got to start local. People still vote for people they know. The conservative side has many organizations that do this. Farm Bureau is huge in rural areas for growing conservative minded leaders and getting them into roles of prominence. Democrats have no such mechanism. 

[Born N Bled Red]

2 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Whose national ads celebrate this? I have to see this. Please link one or two or a dozen.

 

It is race-driven. I see it every single day. Every day.

 

If Republicans don't have to do anything, and rural voters are pre-disposed to believe that they are being "taunted" by others' success, you've already disproven the notion that Democrats can do anything to overcome this. 

 

Literally the only thing these voters are responding to from their party leadership is emotion. So to combat that, Democrats have to stop being Democrats and become Republicans. And that's not going to happen, nor should it, nor should anyone expect it.

 

That's the problem here - your expectations are completely unrealistic. None of this is going to happen.

 

Man, if you're telling me, you've never seen an ad for a candidate that has an anecdote, quote, or personal message from someone who had personally benefitted from a social program and support XYZ candidate, because without them, I would have never gotten my college diploma/ graduated high school, etc. I'm going to flag that as pure .

 

 

Like I said. Even the most racist of people I knew 20 years ago now have family that have married minorities, have worked alongside minorities have friends that are minorities, etc. You might be accepting it as racism on its face, but dig a littler deeper. It boils down to economic stability and the idea that someone is getting a benefit that they did not, not their race. I'm not saying there is no such thing as a racist. I'm saying that for the vast majority of rural people, who vote red its not because they are racist and democrats aren't.

 

Nope, democrats have to offer better solutions to bigger problems. - Democrats don't do that for rural Americans now. 

[knapplc]

6 minutes ago, Born N Bled Red said:

Man, if you're telling me, you've never seen an ad for a candidate that has an anecdote, quote, or personal message from someone who had personally benefitted from a social program and support XYZ candidate, because without them, I would have never gotten my college diploma/ graduated high school, etc. I'm going to flag that as pure .

 

Whoa. You're talking as if this is a known thing. I asked for examples, and you're not providing any. 

 

I haven't had cable in going on ten years. I haven't watched a campaign ad in... at least that long. You have no idea my antipathy for advertisements. 

 

I'm asking you to show me an ad that people take offense to. If it's that common it shouldn't be hard.

 

7 minutes ago, Born N Bled Red said:

Like I said. Even the most racist of people I knew 20 years ago now have family that have married minorities, have worked alongside minorities have friends that are minorities, etc. You might be accepting it as racism on its face, but dig a littler deeper. It boils down to economic stability and the idea that someone is getting a benefit that they did not, not their race. I'm not saying there is no such thing as a racist. I'm saying that for the vast majority of rural people, who vote red its not because they are racist and democrats aren't.

 

 

You're telling me the experience I have, every day, is wrong. We're just going to have to agree to disagree. Marrying a minority doesn't stop someone from harboring racism. I have family experience with that. 

 

14 minutes ago, Born N Bled Red said:

Nope, democrats have to offer better solutions to bigger problems. - Democrats don't do that for rural Americans now. 

 

They have. Obamacare is a fantastic example that would benefit every American. So is Single Payer. So is ending reliance on fossil fuels. What you're pretending, and what is patently untrue, is that rural voters will soberly judge these proposals and give Dems a fair chance. They don't. 

 

It's really interesting that every single thing you're proposing is from the Dems to the rural voters. There's no responsibility from anyone else. 

 

 

 

 

[Lorewarn]

1 hour ago, Born N Bled Red said:

Actual policies that need to be enacted- 

 

Rural affordable housing initiatives need to be expanded- this includes construction and rehabilitation loans. 

The government needs to step in and provide rural broadband internet and open rural economies to e-commerce. 

 

One thing I haven't mentioned is that a greater number of rural individuals identify as entrepreneurs/ self employed. There need to be greater tax benefits for rural entrepreneurs (small business) and affordable training provided to train up the rural workforce. The training needs to be able to be accomplished as part of a government funded employee benefit, not placed at the expense of an employer.

 

Childcare centers need to be established and strengthened. - Meals on wheels should be expanded to provide in home daycares with quality meals rather than place the onus of preparing those meals on the provider. 

 

There needs to be a RURAL infrastructure package that prioritizes projects like 50 year hold that residents have put up with for HWY 275. Similarly there should be funding for improved rural school buildings and systems and yes, there should be subsidies for rural grocery stores and medical services. 

 

And the democrats need to take credit for getting these passed. 

 

When it comes to combatting the messaging. 

 

There is no rural democratic campaign strategy. They need to be present in rural communities. They need to go to places like Norfolk and West Point and Chadron. Not just stop at Epply and say "welp I've been to Nebraska." 

 

They need to develop a rural strategy to identify potential democratic candidates for local offices and then provide leadership education and training to grow those individuals into electable candidates. They then need to support the election of these candidates in order to have local representation in rural areas. By not growing candidates and local faces of the party they are allowing conservatism to spread one local position at a time. They are also not enabling party members to get the leadership experience and exposure necessary for those individuals to grow into statewide or national level candidates. 

 

In many rural places, positive democratically enacted policy is overseen by Republican administrators. As I've seen working across the nation, people associate programs that benefit them with the local administrators, not the national players. So democratic policies that benefit rural people are still associated with republican leaning individuals. Somehow that needs to be addressed, through better marketing maybe. 

 

In short. In order to combat the conservative wave sweeping rural America, Democrats need to be present in rural America. They need to listen to the concerns and enact real economic policy that will relieve rural poverty, income inequality, and education deficits. Rather than showing up at a coal mine saying coal is dead, and you can all find new jobs somewhere else. They need to say, "Your local coal plant my be closing, but I've already recruited a new wind factory to come to your town that will offer you employment and has agreed to pay an average of $2 an hour more than the coal company. 

 

As anyone who has studied Maslov's Hierarchy of needs can attest. Not one person is capable of understanding or caring about the greater good, if they are worried about their own families, food, and shelter. Rural Red voters are not backwater hicks that hate minorities. They have just been let down by a system that has not helped them elevate to a place of security. 

 

Honest question - how much of the above would, at least in part, benefit from Biden's Build Back Better plan? 

 

Someone (I think you) brought up the New Deal under FDR a few pages back, which I thought was an interesting parallel. There can never be a modern version of the New Deal if people don't have the ears to hear. 

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Born N Bled Red said:

Like I said, I live in rural America, a town of 600 40 minutes from the nearest Walmart. I interact with ALOT of rural Red Voters and have a very sore tongue somedays as a result. 

 

That said- most rural voters work alongside minority members everyday at packing houses, feedlots, manufacturing plants and the like across the nation. They have friends, co-workers, colleagues and bosses that are minorities. - It's not racism itself that drives the mindset.

 

I'm from one of the many 10-20,000 population range towns in Nebraska. I have, my whole life, and even still when I come back to visit, witnessed plenty of examples of folks shooting the s#!t and referring to black folks and hispanic folks by racial slurs, and in the same sitting bought a beer for someone of that ethnic/racial identity who walked in to the establishment later on. It's a strange dynamic - the racism is very abstract and usually/hopefully fairly innocuous, but to pretend it's not there to some degree in almost everyone is a bit naive imo.

[Born N Bled Red]

1 minute ago, knapplc said:

 

Whoa. You're talking as if this is a known thing. I asked for examples, and you're not providing any. 

 

I haven't had cable in going on ten years. I haven't watched a campaign ad in... at least that long. You have no idea my antipathy for advertisements. 

 

I'm asking you to show me an ad that people take offense to. If it's that common it shouldn't be hard.

 

 

You're telling me the experience I have, every day, is wrong. We're just going to have to agree to disagree. Marrying a minority doesn't stop someone from harboring racism. I have family experience with that. 

 

 

They have. Obamacare is a fantastic example that would benefit every American. So is Single Payer. So is ending reliance on fossil fuels. What you're pretending, and what is patently untrue, is that rural voters will soberly judge these proposals and give Dems a fair chance. They don't. 

 

It's really interesting that every single thing you're proposing is from the Dems to the rural voters. There's no responsibility from anyone else. 

 

 

 

 

 

They have. Obamacare is a fantastic example that would benefit every American. So is Single Payer. So is ending reliance on fossil fuels. What you're pretending, and what is patently untrue, is that rural voters will soberly judge these proposals and give Dems a fair chance. They don't. 

 

---- Obamacare yes, does benefit rural people. But not specifically. Ending reliance on fossil fuels may economically damage some rural people. 

---- Nebraska voters have supported very specific ballot initiatives that lean primarily on the left side of the field, even though they haven't elected a democratic governor since the mid 90

 

It's really interesting that every single thing you're proposing is from the Dems to the rural voters. There's no responsibility from anyone else. 

 

 -- If they want a chance in the Senate- Dems need rural. This was never about singing kumbaya and everyone get along. This is about the real possibility that Republican gerrymandering and Senate can and will shut the Democrats our of power, if they don't make inroads in rural states. 

 

--- Dems can't and shouldn't sell their soul to the lowest common denominator, so instead, they have to offer something that currently isn't. Real economic change is what they can offer. 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Republican messaging has been anchored in the Maker vs Taker narrative for years, a narrative that used to center on inner city welfare queens but is more likely to vilify taxpayer money being spent to feed, educate, and provide free healthcare to illegal immigrants. 

 

It's a brown people problem either way. 

[Born N Bled Red]

20 minutes ago, Lorewarn said:

 

Honest question - how much of the above would, at least in part, benefit from Biden's Build Back Better plan? 

 

Someone (I think you) brought up the New Deal under FDR a few pages back, which I thought was an interesting parallel. There can never be a modern version of the New Deal if people don't have the ears to hear. 

 

 

 

 

I'm from one of the many 10-20,000 population range towns in Nebraska. I have, my whole life, and even still when I come back to visit, witnessed plenty of examples of folks shooting the s#!t and referring to black folks and hispanic folks by racial slurs, and in the same sitting bought a beer for someone of that ethnic/racial identity who walked in to the establishment later on. It's a strange dynamic - the racism is very abstract and usually/hopefully fairly innocuous, but to pretend it's not there to some degree in almost everyone is a bit naive imo.

 

I do think there are several things in the Build Back Better Plan that is going to benefit rural. Rural Broadband, I believe is one of them. It's not being sold as a rural program though. - Messaging. 

 

The second part of your post is exactly what I am referring to. The racist "slur" are taking our jobs. Is just that, the "slur" has taken on the role of the mysterious "they". You ask them about Jose who lives down the street? --- "Oh no, Jose, he's a good guy. Hard worker, has kids that go to school with mine, ect."  The slur is used as the "bogeyman" the unknown, the place to lay blame for the reason they/ their community is struggling economically. 

[knapplc]

1 hour ago, Born N Bled Red said:

Man, if you're telling me, you've never seen an ad for a candidate that has an anecdote, quote, or personal message from someone who had personally benefitted from a social program and support XYZ candidate, because without them, I would have never gotten my college diploma/ graduated high school, etc. I'm going to flag that as pure .

 

Whoa. You're talking as if this is a known thing. I asked for examples, and you're not providing any. 

 

I haven't had cable in going on ten years. I haven't watched a campaign ad in... at least that long. You have no idea my antipathy for advertisements. 

 

I'm asking you to show me an ad that people take offense to. If it's that common it shouldn't be hard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You kinda ignored this. If you'd like to make a retraction, cool. But this is something I'd genuinely like to see if it exists.

 

 

 

[Born N Bled Red]

23 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

Whoa. You're talking as if this is a known thing. I asked for examples, and you're not providing any. 

 

I haven't had cable in going on ten years. I haven't watched a campaign ad in... at least that long. You have no idea my antipathy for advertisements. 

 

I'm asking you to show me an ad that people take offense to. If it's that common it shouldn't be hard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You kinda ignored this. If you'd like to make a retraction, cool. But this is something I'd genuinely like to see if it exists.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, sorry, I think I'm going to keep ignoring it. I think you know what I'm talking about, and are just being difficult. Just like you were about democratic elected official mocking rural voters. (The google search for the Obama quote was like 15 seconds.) I'll let you do the google search this time, bud. 

 

You've made a great series of statements throughout our discussion. Would you care to provide sources for each of yours, as I have mine? 

 

This has been a good discussion. Maybe you've learned a little? If not, it's been fun. 

[knapplc]

2 minutes ago, Born N Bled Red said:

I think you know what I'm talking about, and are just being difficult.

 

This is really unfortunate, and undermines your conversation. This is not remotely true. I've been nothing but polite and forthcoming.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Born N Bled Red said:

Just like you were about democratic elected official mocking rural voters. (

 

You found one comment (well, two) from more than a decade ago. That's at best anecdotal evidence.

[Born N Bled Red]

10 minutes ago, knapplc said:

 

This is really unfortunate, and undermines your conversation. This is not remotely true. I've been nothing but polite and forthcoming.

 

 

 

You found one comment (well, two) from more than a decade ago. That's at best anecdotal evidence.

 

 

 

Just like this, only instead of getting out of prison, the received benefits from some social service. C'mon man. 

 

 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Killing the Keystone Pipeline took away red state jobs because of blue state environmentalists

 

Democrats care more about illegal immigrants than they do unborn babies. 

 

Liberals will side with criminals over police officers.

 

Democratic policies are anti-business.

 

Teachers and journalists only want to talk about what's wrong with America. 

 

Urban/Suburban America looks down its nose at the flyover states. 

 

If you don't approve of the liberal social agenda, you will get canceled or doxed. 

 

 

 

It's a messaging battle and Democrats need to do a better job of answering these. Because they're not all crazy. 

 

 

 

 

[knapplc]

 This is what you said.

 

 

2 hours ago, Born N Bled Red said:

What they are angry at are the "welfare queen," stereotypes they are shown on TV. Unfortunately Democrats unknowingly reinforce this narrative when they share their success stories that benefit urban minorities. And every national Democratic campaign does this. To rural voters, as I've said, this is further proof Dems don't care about their struggles. It could almost be seen as taunting. 

 

 

This is what you offered as proof of what you said.

 

7 minutes ago, Born N Bled Red said:

 

 

 

Just like this, only instead of getting out of prison, the received benefits from some social service. C'mon man. 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you serious, Clark?