NBA 2023-24

[Madcows]

2 hours ago, Jason Sitoke said:

Than the Spurs?  Yes. 

 

On paper, the Lakers win. As a team, it's close. That's because Pop is so much better than Ham. Watching the Lakers with Ham, and how he uses the talent he has, he's one of the coaches playing checkers, Pop is playing 3D chess.

[Jason Sitoke]

14 minutes ago, Madcows said:

 

On paper, the Lakers win. As a team, it's close. That's because Pop is so much better than Ham. Watching the Lakers with Ham, and how he uses the talent he has, he's one of the coaches playing checkers, Pop is playing 3D chess.

Pop has the pedigree. But honestly the Spurs are a disaster on most possessions, offensively and defensively.  There’s nothing schematically sound about the way they play. Now they do play hard and scrappy, which is provably a testament to coaching. 
 

That game was more about Phoenix’s flaws, and since I hate the Suns…I’m here for it 

[admo]

6 hours ago, Mavric said:

Durant is unstoppable!

 

"KD, what do you do for your team when you are not shooting 3's or getting easy dunks ?"

 

[admo]

Spoelstra was his best coach, which LeBron had no input, but over his career, it's funny and strangely odd how LeBron James wants a certain coach around to cradle him. 

 

Somebody with limited HC experience.  A coach that will support him and be willing to stay out of his way. 

 

Not that LeBron needs a certain head coach to accomplish his career goals or take any credit from what he does, I don't think....   But it is odd looking back over his NBA career. 

 

Paul Silas

Mike Brown

Tyronn Lue

Darvin Ham

 

 

Paul Silas

 

 

 

Mike Brown

 

 

 

 

Tyronn Lue

 

 

 

Darvin Ham

 

[suh_fan93]

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

On 10/26/2023 at 1:27 PM, admo said:

Don't tell ESPN or the National Media, because they have their specific agenda to prop up Wembanyama all day and night long, but....

 

The Dallas Mavericks rookie center Dereck Lively stole the show from him, Luka Doncic had a triple-double, and the Mavericks beat the Spurs, Popovich and Wembanyama in the season opener.

 

Lively - just 19 years old - had never scored 13 points in a game during his one year playing center for Duke last season. 

 

However, the 7'1" rookie center for Dallas outplayed the Spurs rookie center Wembanyama, who is being hailed as the greatest rookie since LeBron James.  

 

Stat sheet: 

Lively 16 points (7-8 shooting), 10 rebounds (5 off/5def), 1 block

Wemby 15 points (6-9 shooting), 5 rebounds (all defensive), 1 block

 

 

 

Well the sports media's #1 agenda is a good story, and Wembayama is a good story. Lively definitely earned the attention. Tons of great young talent coming into the league, but the 7' 3" teenager has a head start and looks ready to earn it, too.

 

Here's the thing about Luka. A year ago there were plenty of players and pundits willing to call him either the best player in the league or firmly in the top five. He really is a unicorn, given all he does at an insanely competitive level. But when the Kyrie circus came to town and the Maverick's didn't even make the play-in, Luka's reputation takes a hit. Fair or not, you didn't see him in the playoffs, where the winners were playing.

 

If the Mavs can figure out how to build around Luka, and they're back in the playoffs this year, Luka is back in the best player conversation. And I don't think anyone undervalues him right now. 

[Jason Sitoke]

20 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Well the sports media's #1 agenda is a good story, and Wembayama is a good story. Lively definitely earned the attention. Tons of great young talent coming into the league, but the 7' 3" teenager has a head start and looks ready to earn it, too.

 

Here's the thing about Luka. A year ago there were plenty of players and pundits willing to call him either the best player in the league or firmly in the top five. He really is a unicorn, given all he does at an insanely competitive level. But when the Kyrie circus came to town and the Maverick's didn't even make the play-in, Luka's reputation takes a hit. Fair or not, you didn't see him in the playoffs, where the winners were playing.

 

If the Mavs can figure out how to build around Luka, and they're back in the playoffs this year, Luka is back in the best player conversation. And I don't think anyone undervalues him right now. 

I know this is a bit of a hot take..but I just don’t think Luka’s game is conducive to winning basketball. He is immensely talented, strong with the ball, decent shooter and has tremendous court vision. But he’s sooo ball dominant that it stops the flow of the offense. Not to mention entire possessions where he basically becomes James Harden…pounds the ball for 18 seconds for a step back three. 
 

ESPN will show his stat line last night, but they glaze over the fact that he had 9 TOs, played poor defense, and contributed to easy Denver buckets by staring at the refs instead of getting back in transition. . 

[suh_fan93]

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

On 11/4/2023 at 1:14 PM, Jason Sitoke said:

.....contributed to easy Denver buckets by staring at the refs instead of getting back in transition. . 

 

Yeah. That's what dings Luka in my book. He complains WAYYYY too much. It's not only a whiny look, but, as you mention, keeps him from turning around and playing D. 

[teachercd]

Oh my god, that dude for the Spurs is a video game! 

 

He is what you create when you create a player!

[admo]

On 11/4/2023 at 2:14 PM, Jason Sitoke said:

I know this is a bit of a hot take..but I just don’t think Luka’s game is conducive to winning basketball. He is immensely talented, strong with the ball, decent shooter and has tremendous court vision. But he’s sooo ball dominant that it stops the flow of the offense. Not to mention entire possessions where he basically becomes James Harden…pounds the ball for 18 seconds for a step back three. 
 

ESPN will show his stat line last night, but they glaze over the fact that he had 9 TOs, played poor defense, and contributed to easy Denver buckets by staring at the refs instead of getting back in transition. . 

You are mostly right, and it was one of his worst games in a few years. Trust me I have seen almost all of his games. 

 

His effort was horrible when he did not have the ball.  Time after time he stopped after a shot and looked at officials while Denver ran the other direction down the court.  It was embarrassing.  And I hope the team & coaching staff get on his a$$ for it.  I don't know why he pulls that type of attitude.  It happens once every 10 games, but this was really bad.  He stunk, he had terrible defense, he couldn't get the pick and roll going, and he shrank his shoulders to the refs when he couldn't finish.  Pathetic.  

 

He's still one of the best - top 3 

[admo]

2 hours ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Yeah. That's what dings Luka in my book. He complains WAYYYY too much. It's not only a whiny look, but, as you mention, keeps him from turning around and playing D. 

Truth.  Facts.  Yall are 100% right.  And deep down we all hate it (fans everywhere).

 

It is okay to point it out.  It is okay to say in the media "Stop doing that, stop complaining - you are too good to be whining".

 

And that is perfectly fine to be objective to talented players that show their weaknesses and bad games.

 

Now all we have to do (and MEDIA) is show the weaknesses for the other great players in the league, and talk about it a lot.  So that everyone is aware of it too.  

 

But that doesn't really happen.  The majority of NBA superstars that have terrible games - shooting and turning the ball over a ton, and looking below average is sometimes mentioned but often glossed over.  It is not as magnified as Luka.  It rarely becomes the focal story of other NBA superstars.  When a player misses 20 shots, but scores 30 it is all about their highlights and not those terrible shots, or their 5-8 turnovers.  We need more consistency pointing out and talking about all of the  superstars horrible games and idiosyncrasies too.  It's not just Luka who has bad moments.

[Guy Chamberlin]

4 hours ago, admo said:

Truth.  Facts.  Yall are 100% right.  And deep down we all hate it (fans everywhere).

 

It is okay to point it out.  It is okay to say in the media "Stop doing that, stop complaining - you are too good to be whining".

 

And that is perfectly fine to be objective to talented players that show their weaknesses and bad games.

 

Now all we have to do (and MEDIA) is show the weaknesses for the other great players in the league, and talk about it a lot.  So that everyone is aware of it too.  

 

But that doesn't really happen.  The majority of NBA superstars that have terrible games - shooting and turning the ball over a ton, and looking below average is sometimes mentioned but often glossed over.  It is not as magnified as Luka.  It rarely becomes the focal story of other NBA superstars.  When a player misses 20 shots, but scores 30 it is all about their highlights and not those terrible shots, or their 5-8 turnovers.  We need more consistency pointing out and talking about all of the  superstars horrible games and idiosyncrasies too.  It's not just Luka who has bad moments.

 

Eh, I think you're a little too close to the subject. Like Husker fans convinced the refs are actively against them. 

 

In fact I'd say almost EVERY NBA superstar gets over-magnified and called out on a nightly basis. LeBron gets heat non-stop, and we've all seen his ridiculous flops because they always get replays. Anthony Davis gets absolutely roasted when he turns in a sloppy game. James Harden? Are you kidding me? Russell Westbrook? Also savaged. Kahwi Leonard is always on the clock, always having his motives doubted. Is it news when Kevin Durant goes 5 for 19 and they show photos of him looking sad and lost on the bench? Yep. Joel Embid got dissected every game. Last NBA finals Jason Tatum and Jimmy Butler traded roles on a nightly basis -- one of them was either cementing his legend or choking on the big stage depending on the game. The guys who habitually piss off the refs --- like Draymond Green, Dennis Shroeder and Dillon Brooks make the highlight reels, too, but without Luka's accomplishments. 

 

They always take note when a superstar has an off-game, but as you admit, Luka gets more theatrical more often than most.

 

You can find haters everywhere. I know Steph Curry has them. And I just learned last year that Devin Booker isn't as chill and beloved among players as I thought. Among superstars I'd say Jokic, Giannis, and Damian Lillard are the best liked and least criticized among fans, media, and players  

[admo]

1 hour ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

 

Eh, I think you're a little too close to the subject. Like Husker fans convinced the refs are actively against them. 

 

In fact I'd say almost EVERY NBA superstar gets over-magnified and called out on a nightly basis. LeBron gets heat non-stop, and we've all seen his ridiculous flops because they always get replays. Anthony Davis gets absolutely roasted when he turns in a sloppy game. James Harden? Are you kidding me? Russell Westbrook? Also savaged. Kahwi Leonard is always on the clock, always having his motives doubted. Is it news when Kevin Durant goes 5 for 19 and they show photos of him looking sad and lost on the bench? Yep. Joel Embid got dissected every game. Last NBA finals Jason Tatum and Jimmy Butler traded roles on a nightly basis -- one of them was either cementing his legend or choking on the big stage depending on the game. The guys who habitually piss off the refs --- like Draymond Green, Dennis Shroeder and Dillon Brooks make the highlight reels, too, but without Luka's accomplishments. 

 

They always take note when a superstar has an off-game, but as you admit, Luka gets more theatrical more often than most.

 

You can find haters everywhere. I know Steph Curry has them. And I just learned last year that Devin Booker isn't as chill and beloved among players as I thought. Among superstars I'd say Jokic, Giannis, and Damian Lillard are the best liked and least criticized among fans, media, and players  

I might be, and nothing wrong with knowing the entire scope of the NBA and what is talked about in pop-media news (Fox/ESPN).  And it's probably because I see him play 50 times a year more than yall besides watching a lot of hoops.  I never was talking about haters, because haters are everywhere.  I was talking about "magnifying an NBA superstar's deficiencies on a National level".  Luka pouts and whines too much.  We know it, we all see it.  Pop media talks about it in depth more than they do about how incredible he is.  

 

Butler, Green, Shroeder, Brooks, Leonard, Westbrook, Harden are not superstars.  Nor is Haliburton, Brown, Donovan Mitchell, Randle, Irving, Paul, Ja Morant, Tre Young etc, etc.  Some of them once were.  Some of them will be included soon.  

 

Embid, Durant, Curry, Giannis, Jokic, Luka & AD are the leagues superstars. With Anthony Davis at the bottom of it.  

 

Tatum, Booker and Lillard are slightly below them.  Lebron was forever, side by side with Bryant for years, but he's now a step behind superstar level.  Still a great player like the others mentioned above.    

 

Anyway, I'm done I'm good.  

[Jason Sitoke]

4 hours ago, admo said:

Truth.  Facts.  Yall are 100% right.  And deep down we all hate it (fans everywhere).

 

It is okay to point it out.  It is okay to say in the media "Stop doing that, stop complaining - you are too good to be whining".

 

And that is perfectly fine to be objective to talented players that show their weaknesses and bad games.

 

Now all we have to do (and MEDIA) is show the weaknesses for the other great players in the league, and talk about it a lot.  So that everyone is aware of it too.  

 

But that doesn't really happen.  The majority of NBA superstars that have terrible games - shooting and turning the ball over a ton, and looking below average is sometimes mentioned but often glossed over.  It is not as magnified as Luka.  It rarely becomes the focal story of other NBA superstars.  When a player misses 20 shots, but scores 30 it is all about their highlights and not those terrible shots, or their 5-8 turnovers.  We need more consistency pointing out and talking about all of the  superstars horrible games and idiosyncrasies too.  It's not just Luka who has bad moments.

I think it’s a fair point. Im definitely not saying that Luka is not a superstar. Maybe the larger point here is that the qualities that get a superstar covered aren’t necessarily the same qualities that make his team successful. 
 

The NBA earned its popularity by promoting its stars as individuals. IMO, this has carried over into some lazy analysis by the sports media, ESPN specifically. Unlike other sports, you rarely see analysis of plays or schematics in the NBA. Instead you get Stephen A. Smith or Michael Wilbon saying ‘team A lost  because player X failed to take over the game’.  These guys look at the stat line and feel qualified to offer analysis. ‘Kevin Durant had 35 points, so he had a good game.’  Did he?  He shot 10-25 and committed 5 TOs. Even assists don’t really tell the whole story on whether a guy is unselfish and made the right basketball play most of the time. 
 

As you’ve gathered, I’m a Nuggets fan.  I get told all the time that the Nuggets are good, but boring. This confuses me because how is Phoenix Suns ‘your turn, my turn’ iso ball exciting?  How is Joel Embiid grifting fouls and shooting 15 free throws a night exciting?  Isn’t it fun to watch a team that passes the ball and makes good basketball plays?  It’s more of a commentary that the media tries to tell us how to watch an NBA game and ESPN is the ultimate casual fan version of the media. 
 

Bringing it back to Luka…I don’t think the Mavs are going to win consistently if they utterly rely on Doncic to have 80% usage and shoot lights out night in and night out. He shouldn’t be dribbling for 15 seconds unless it’s the end of a quarter. He shouldn’t be taking step back threes as a first option. He shouldn’t be getting caught in the lane with nowhere to go consistently and throwing the ball away. And he shouldn’t be abandoning his team in transition to argue with the refs.  He could be an MVP if he made those changes, and the Mavs would be a contender as well.