How good can we be with TM under center next year?

[zoogs]

Uhh, no, I'm saying defense doesn't do it alone.

 

Defense is important, and so is offense.

 

Tim Tebow had some good defenses, but they also had Tim Tebow running the offense.

 

Football is a team sport, yes. This means that both defense and offense are important. But on offense, the quarterback is the first guy to touch the ball on every single play. Every player matters, but the QB is an unusually central position. I think you and I even agreed on this recently. I'd venture to say there isn't another position equal to it in sports.

 

Also, don't take the "wins championships" talk too literally, IMO. Every championship game features talented units on both sides. A great many staunch defenses and star quarterbacks have gone into title games. Every time, one side loses.

 

All this talk of importance is more general to how important it is with respect to the overall quality of the team.

[95huskers]

you can argue any stat, and any number, but i just do not see how Neb will be successful with Taylor at QB. I think he is a good athlete. But i think we have better athletes on this team. I wish the most success for Taylor, obviously. I just don't see it happening. I think that he needs to improve as a QB dramatically if this team is going to see less that 4 losses next season. i think there was some improvement this season from last, but it isnt enough.

So basically what we have is this then: The "We 4 3" side giving stats and "empirical" data to argue its point while the "We 4 anyone but 3" side is using pure opinion. Got it.

Still pure opinion, you say it looks horrible and won't win us anything. I say it's effective enough. There is nothing statistical in that throwing motion.

 

 

PERFECT hahahahaha love it

[skersfan]

Wrong again, the center Zoogies. lol

 

We seem to do this every year, a couple of weeks ago, this was the worst team in history so to speak, blah blah blah. We can play the games and see what happens, saying we have a realistic chance at MNC this year is star struck at the least. We have not won one for how long, with a far better teams than what this one is on paper. True anything can happen. But for some reason, my guess is by the start of fall practice, most will have bought into we are headed to the MNC. And when that does not happen, it will be Taylors, fault, Cottons fault, Becks fault and the sky will fall, just like it does every year.

 

It seems to me if you look at it what most likely happens this year, and try to live within those lines the year goes easier, and you do not lose your mind over it.

 

I never expect MNC, never even expect CCG's. Been to far removed, lost a lot of luster. If we do as well as we did this year, I will be somewhat happy. Lose a game more, not so happy would seem to be about right. Young team, young coaching staff, none really knowing their jobs. Less than top level talent and a pretty rough schedule.

 

9-4 is about as high as I see up being, that is if everything plays out right, no major injuries.

 

Ohio State will crush us. Michigan likewise I think, and will most likely lose another one between Michigan State, Wisky and Northwestern. Anything better I will be very happy. We lose in our bowl game again.

 

The next year we have it a little easier, and I look to see us improve then. Not until.

 

Now I have made my prediction and will stick with until the end of the season. Hopefully I will eat crow, unfortunately I have never had to on this board that I remember. Normally pretty close to what happens.

 

Now for the pie in sky group, make your predictiosn and we will see who ends up closer at the end of this year.

 

Reality is how it comes out.

[lo country]

NU in 2009 had an incredibly dominate D yet we did not win the BigXII nor go to a BCS bowl. Our offense was horrific. Last year, again very solid D and horrific O. Injuries and poor coaching decisions killed us. This year, average D and decent offensive production, but still no BCS, no conference championship and 3 humiliating losses on national tv.

 

To win you need to have an above average O and an above average D. If one is lower, the other needs to step up. This years O with 2009 D equals possible MNC and definetly a BCS game. Same with last year.

 

Coaching and our D cost us games this year IMO. Martinez did what was asked. I would like to see better use of his skill set, but he did have a rather decent year. Do I think we will win a conference title with him or go to a BCS bowl? No. Our D needs to be of the 2009 calibre to make that happen. Currently, IMO, Martinez has lost the ability to make the home run play. This is a combination of coaching (ie play calling and sliding) and defenses realizing that stacking the box with 8 guys when we try to block with 5 is great odds to stuff him. We do not spread the ball around in a regular enough fashion to make DC's consider anyone, but Rex and Martinez. Better play calling will help.

 

Defense wins championships. Just ask Saban and Bo for that matter (LSU, OU). They both had above average O and stellar defenses.

 

Most top 25 teams do not have walk-ons as starters. We played 4-5 this year total on both sides of the ball.

 

Martinez is an issue, but so are the coaching decisions, play calling, talent level, player development and depth (ie no experienced back-up QB, no center has taken a meaningful snap in like 3 years just to name a few). I am sure that teams with a legitimate shot at the MNC or BCS have problems, but not as many as it appears we have to me.

 

The DB's did improve as the season wore on. I liked Compton/Whaley and Martin stepping up. D line scares me. As does our lack of DE's who can run down a play. Beating a dead horse BO, but how about a Super D role?

 

Our O line is extremely young and loosing Caputo, Yosh and Jones isn't going to help. At least we did have some younger (possibly better) kids play.

 

Hopefully we can find away with another year for the staff to gel to get some chemistry going, get the swagger back and play mean and nasty on both sides of the ball. I also hope the staff instills the desire to win vs the desire to not lose.

 

I am with skersfan, 9-4 next year. We have too many issues that this past season exposed to make me think we can do realistically better. NOt a bad record. ONe of a few teams that will have this record for 5 years running, but I expect and always hope for more. Sadly, a lot of the top teams seem to reload and we rebuild every year. Need to get the depth going across the board.

[True2tRA]

In college football these days it is amazing how truly good you have to be on both sides of the ball if you want to win your conference or a national championship. Look at LSU, Oklahoma State, Oklahoma, Alabama, Baylor, the list goes on and on. LSU had one of the greatest defenses ever to take the field, what are they left with this year? They are wishing they had a dual threat QB, not just a run threat QB. It cost them their season not developing a true dual threat. Oklahoma is good but not great at both sides. Good defense, good offense, not consistently great on either side. Baylor and Oklahoma State had some of the best offenses and greatest QB's you'll ever see at the college level. Couldn't get it done on defense. Alabama had just enough to win it all this year. Why? Stellar defense, and a QB that could make plays. The passing game is the most important skill a QB can possess is managing the passing game. If you are a threat in the passing game, even the slowest QB's can pick up huge yards in the run game. Blaine Gabbert broke some pretty damn good runs against a pretty damn decent Nebraska defense. Is Gabbert a speedster? No. Jake Locker not exactly a track star. I could go on and on about this. The passing game opens up lanes! Dual Threat QB's are just the cream of the crop. When you find the guy that can do both, you have it made. The most important asset is the passing ability though. The game has evolved to that. The NFL has evolved to that style. When Nebraska conforms to the NFL systems, we will bring in future NFL players. How many Nebraska QB's have been drafted to the NFL? It's time to move in that direction.

[Hercules]

Uhh, no, I'm saying defense doesn't do it alone.

 

Defense is important, and so is offense.

 

Tim Tebow had some good defenses, but they also had Tim Tebow running the offense.

 

Football is a team sport, yes. This means that both defense and offense are important. But on offense, the quarterback is the first guy to touch the ball on every single play. Every player matters, but the QB is an unusually central position. I think you and I even agreed on this recently. I'd venture to say there isn't another position equal to it in sports.

 

Also, don't take the "wins championships" talk too literally, IMO. Every championship game features talented units on both sides. A great many staunch defenses and star quarterbacks have gone into title games. Every time, one side loses.

 

All this talk of importance is more general to how important it is with respect to the overall quality of the team.

 

We do agree that the QB is very important. But it's not bigger than the rest of the offense. It's not bigger than the entire defense. The silly thing about this whole thread is that it puts everything on the QB, and that's just not how it works in football.

 

How good can we be with Rex at RB? Very good runner, but doesn't have the big-play ability a truly big-time back has. Is he the kind of RB we need in order to win national championships, or do we need Ahman Green, Lawrence Phillips, or Mike Rozier (or Michael Dyer, LaMichael James, Trent Richardson, Mark Ingram - the type of RB who has made it to the NCG the last few years)?

 

How good can we be with Bell, Enunwa, and Turner starting at WR? All have potential, but no one has really displayed much consistent productivity.

 

How good can we be with our offensive line playing like they did in 2009-2011? I'll just leave that one there...

 

How good can we really be when Will Compton is our best linebacker, and Andrew Green is the best player in our secondary? The last time we won a conference championship, it was Carlos Polk, who played in the NFL for a few years, and Mike/Ralph Brown, two All-Americans.

 

Like Lo Country said, there are lots of issues, and they're at every position group, QB included. And with all that said - the biggest issues the team has to correct are team-wide: they have to limit turnovers on offense, commit fewer penalties on both sides of the ball, cause more turnovers on defense, and they have to play with discipline through adversity, instead of self-destructing. Those were our biggest issues in 2011, and they have to be fixed with the whole team, not just the QB.

 

You eliminate those issues (Rex's fumble against NW, Ameer's fumble against SC, special teams meltdowns against Michigan and SC, etc), and Nebraska would have just finished a very encouraging 12-2 Big Ten debut, with a couple of competitive losses on the road against Wisconsin and Michigan.

[Hercules]

The most important asset is the passing ability though. The game has evolved to that. The NFL has evolved to that style. When Nebraska conforms to the NFL systems, we will bring in future NFL players. How many Nebraska QB's have been drafted to the NFL? It's time to move in that direction.

 

This is the same argument that people made in support of bringing Callahan to Nebraska, and it's the same thing people have said about offensive football in general since the 1980's. They've never stopped being wrong.

 

The NFL is getting closer to college football, not the other way around. The New England Patriots are headed to the Super Bowl with a spread offense. The Denver Broncos reached the second round of the playoffs running a bad version of the spread option with the NFL's version of Taylor Martinez at QB, if you will. And just a few days ago, Tampa Bay was this close to hiring spread option wizard Chip Kelly.

[lo country]

The most important asset is the passing ability though. The game has evolved to that. The NFL has evolved to that style. When Nebraska conforms to the NFL systems, we will bring in future NFL players. How many Nebraska QB's have been drafted to the NFL? It's time to move in that direction.

 

This is the same argument that people made in support of bringing Callahan to Nebraska, and it's the same thing people have said about offensive football in general since the 1980's. They've never stopped being wrong.

 

The NFL is getting closer to college football, not the other way around. The New England Patriots are headed to the Super Bowl with a spread offense. The Denver Broncos reached the second round of the playoffs running a bad version of the spread option with the NFL's version of Taylor Martinez at QB, if you will. And just a few days ago, Tampa Bay was this close to hiring spread option wizard Chip Kelly.

 

But this version won 2 MNC's (Chris Leak starter). Not even a close comparison.

 

I would take any "poor" passer of NU's great running QB's over Martinez. Imagine Ganz in 2009 or 2010.

 

I agree the NFL is really toying with the idea of going with the spread or dual threat QB's. RGIII, Cam etc......, but these examples are head and shoulders above Martinez. The Patriots and their spread have an imaginative OC ie use of Hernandez as RB, receivers who catch, TE's who are all everything. Their talent is across the board sick.

 

Passing is an incredible threat and when down by 14 and time ticking, passing wins games. We can't pass to win. If they game is on the line, do you really want it to be lost or won on Martinez's arm? Not saying he can't pass, but IMO he is not a dual threat. To run or pass. Are teams stacking the box to stop his running ability or because they know he can't pass? Seems to me, a good QB in the passing game would eat a D alive dropping guys in single coverage. Until Martinez shows he can do this, teams will stack the box, he will get stuffed and we will get 3-4 losses per year.

 

Beck has really done nothing to deter D's from doing this. he has called a few great quarters or halfs, but needs to put together 4 quarters. His play calling has got to improve if they plan on keeping with Martinez. Can he win us games anymore? IMO not unless play calling changes, but he is getting good enough to not lose us any games.

[Hercules]

Passing is an incredible threat and when down by 14 and time ticking, passing wins games. We can't pass to win. If they game is on the line, do you really want it to be lost or won on Martinez's arm?

 

Again - this is what everybody said about Osborne's offenses. Can't win from behind. Now they're saying the same thing about Taylor, even though just earlier this year, Taylor led the greatest comeback in school history.

 

I just don't understand how people can argue that we can't win more than four games if Martinez is at QB. Martinez was not the problem against Texas in 2010. He wasn't the problem down the stretch in 2010 either - our QB depth was.

 

In 2011, Martinez wasn't the problem against Michigan, Northwestern, or South Carolina.

 

It's not that I think that Taylor is some amazing QB, it's that there's a serious crack in the logic that people are using to arrive at the conclusion we'll only ever be able to win 9-10 games with Taylor at QB.

[walksalone]

If they're going to stick with T-mart, they need to configure the offense to play to his strengths. (designed runs, short passes, etc) But unfortunately a lot of his success is predicated on the offensive line, and even more so than if he was a drop back QB.

 

Each time he'd heave up a rainbow, my heart would drop into my stomach, and half the time I couldn't look. Thats not his game. If we've got this amazing weapon running the ball, why isn't he being utilized in such a fashion?

[skersfan]

My prediction has nothing to do with Taylor. We have so many more problems thant Taylor. I think he made a lot of progress this year.

 

The two posts above pretty much line it up for me. We have a lot of problems, we are not as talented as the top 15 teams in the country and no where near the top 5.

 

We have coaches learning their jobs, very little depth, a tough schedule next year.

 

It takes time, but every year we will win. It is not going to happen next year, maybe the following year we will be in the hunt, who knows. A lot of work to be done, a lot of talent to be found.

[lo country]

Passing is an incredible threat and when down by 14 and time ticking, passing wins games. We can't pass to win. If they game is on the line, do you really want it to be lost or won on Martinez's arm?

 

Again - this is what everybody said about Osborne's offenses. Can't win from behind. Now they're saying the same thing about Taylor, even though just earlier this year, Taylor led the greatest comeback in school history.

 

I just don't understand how people can argue that we can't win more than four games if Martinez is at QB. Martinez was not the problem against Texas in 2010. He wasn't the problem down the stretch in 2010 either - our QB depth was.

 

In 2011, Martinez wasn't the problem against Michigan, Northwestern, or South Carolina.

 

It's not that I think that Taylor is some amazing QB, it's that there's a serious crack in the logic that people are using to arrive at the conclusion we'll only ever be able to win 9-10 games with Taylor at QB.

 

What QB under TO would you trade for Martinez? I do not think that Martinez will lose us any games nor do I think he can win won on his abilities alone

 

Look at current and past dual threat QB's. Granted the following are Hypesman winners/greats, but RGIII, Cam, EC, Tommie, Pryor, Miller, Tebow etc..... those guys can win and have won games on their performance and "will" alone. I do not think Martinez has that ability. He is an average at best QB wh won't lose a game.

 

 

If they're going to stick with T-mart, they need to configure the offense to play to his strengths. (designed runs, short passes, etc) But unfortunately a lot of his success is predicated on the offensive line, and even more so than if he was a drop back QB.

 

Each time he'd heave up a rainbow, my heart would drop into my stomach, and half the time I couldn't look. Thats not his game. If we've got this amazing weapon running the ball, why isn't he being utilized in such a fashion?

 

Agree 100%. Beck has not done Martinez any favors with the play calling. Because we have no serviceable back up. Rex is now the featured back, the D stuff's the box to stuff his running because he can't pass well enough to be a threat. Because they rush 6-7 and we try to block with 5. Play calling and scheme my friend.

[Hercules]

Passing is an incredible threat and when down by 14 and time ticking, passing wins games. We can't pass to win. If they game is on the line, do you really want it to be lost or won on Martinez's arm?

 

Again - this is what everybody said about Osborne's offenses. Can't win from behind. Now they're saying the same thing about Taylor, even though just earlier this year, Taylor led the greatest comeback in school history.

 

I just don't understand how people can argue that we can't win more than four games if Martinez is at QB. Martinez was not the problem against Texas in 2010. He wasn't the problem down the stretch in 2010 either - our QB depth was.

 

In 2011, Martinez wasn't the problem against Michigan, Northwestern, or South Carolina.

 

It's not that I think that Taylor is some amazing QB, it's that there's a serious crack in the logic that people are using to arrive at the conclusion we'll only ever be able to win 9-10 games with Taylor at QB.

 

What QB under TO would you trade for Martinez? I do not think that Martinez will lose us any games nor do I think he can win won on his abilities alone

 

Look at current and past dual threat QB's. Granted the following are Hypesman winners/greats, but RGIII, Cam, EC, Tommie, Pryor, Miller, Tebow etc..... those guys can win and have won games on their performance and "will" alone. I do not think Martinez has that ability. He is an average at best QB wh won't lose a game.

 

You're comparing him to RGIII (Heisman), Cam Newton (Heisman, had the best single season in college football history), Eric Crouch (Heisman), Tommie Frazier and Tim Tebow (considered two of the greatest players in college football history). Why don't we create a thread about how Rex isn't good enough to get Nebraska to a championship because he isn't as good as Barry Sanders? Maybe those threads don't exist because that logic is ridiculous...

 

Also, exactly what game did Tommie Frazier win, "on his own?" I'm the biggest Tommie Frazier fan you're going to find, but he didn't really do that, at least not that I can recall...

 

Besides that, Martinez has won games on his performance alone - see Oklahoma State in 2010.

 

It's also difficult to say which Osborne QB I'd "trade" with Martinez, since Martinez isn't a finished product - he just finished his sophomore year. And even by now, he's passed up ALL of Osborne's QBs on the Career Total Offense list.

[suigeneris]

 

It's also difficult to say which Osborne QB I'd "trade" with Martinez, since Martinez isn't a finished product - he just finished his sophomore year. And even by now, he's passed up ALL of Osborne's QBs on the Career Total Offense list.

 

Edit: I was looking at outdated stats.

 

I agree that Martinez shouldn't be the biggest worry. The only game that you could make a colorable argument that Martinez cost us was Wisconsin and even if he played lights out that would have been a tough one to win.

[lo country]

Passing is an incredible threat and when down by 14 and time ticking, passing wins games. We can't pass to win. If they game is on the line, do you really want it to be lost or won on Martinez's arm?

 

Again - this is what everybody said about Osborne's offenses. Can't win from behind. Now they're saying the same thing about Taylor, even though just earlier this year, Taylor led the greatest comeback in school history.

 

I just don't understand how people can argue that we can't win more than four games if Martinez is at QB. Martinez was not the problem against Texas in 2010. He wasn't the problem down the stretch in 2010 either - our QB depth was.

 

In 2011, Martinez wasn't the problem against Michigan, Northwestern, or South Carolina.

 

It's not that I think that Taylor is some amazing QB, it's that there's a serious crack in the logic that people are using to arrive at the conclusion we'll only ever be able to win 9-10 games with Taylor at QB.

 

What QB under TO would you trade for Martinez? I do not think that Martinez will lose us any games nor do I think he can win won on his abilities alone

 

Look at current and past dual threat QB's. Granted the following are Hypesman winners/greats, but RGIII, Cam, EC, Tommie, Pryor, Miller, Tebow etc..... those guys can win and have won games on their performance and "will" alone. I do not think Martinez has that ability. He is an average at best QB wh won't lose a game.

 

You're comparing him to RGIII (Heisman), Cam Newton (Heisman, had the best single season in college football history), Eric Crouch (Heisman), Tommie Frazier and Tim Tebow (considered two of the greatest players in college football history). Why don't we create a thread about how Rex isn't good enough to get Nebraska to a championship because he isn't as good as Barry Sanders? Maybe those threads don't exist because that logic is ridiculous...

 

Also, exactly what game did Tommie Frazier win, "on his own?" I'm the biggest Tommie Frazier fan you're going to find, but he didn't really do that, at least not that I can recall...

 

Besides that, Martinez has won games on his performance alone - see Oklahoma State in 2010.

 

It's also difficult to say which Osborne QB I'd "trade" with Martinez, since Martinez isn't a finished product - he just finished his sophomore year. And even by now, he's passed up ALL of Osborne's QBs on the Career Total Offense list.

 

The QB comparisons were in response to you talking about Denver and "Tebow being the NFL equivalent of Martinez". Not my comparison, yours. I get the analogy you were using.

 

Stats are great. They can show a lot, but we switched from a run based O under TO to one that uses the pass. IIRC Dailey, Ganz, and Taylor owned some records as well.

 

Martinez has been the focus of the O whereas TO's teams had weapons abound. It wasn't just about one guy doing it all. That in itself would lend to some decreased numbers. Take away his homeruns last year and he looks pretty pedestrian as a runner. Injuries aside, once a D stuffs the box, his running has been pretty limited. Again, I think he has the straight line speed to break big runs, but as DC's have film, inconsistent receiver play and play calling that doesn't afford him any advantages, he is extremely limited as a running threat.

 

I have never said that Martinez will cost us a game. I just do not think he has the intangibles to win us a game. Again, I am not at practice or the meetings, it is just my perception (read opinion).

 

I also have stated numerous times that Martinez has the ability to do well. If the staff is committed to him for the next 2 yrs (and I think they are) then get him a friggin QB coach who can actually fix his mechanics, pocket presence, ability to make reads etc.... Little things that a QB needs to better succeed. Calling plays to his strength would help as well. Receivers catching would also help. Unfortunately, coaching can't make them catch, but it can teach Martinez basic mechanics and fundamental QB skills. Without some better coaching, talent wise I think he has reached his ceiling.

 

I think that we have so many issues on both sides of the ball and the staff that it will be hard to correct in a year. Martinez, as the QB, is an easy place for fans to look. Myself included.