Trayvon Martin and "Stand Your Ground" in FL

[carlfense]

I simply refuse to believe that my fellow man, at this point in time, would sweep a shooting death under the rug because the victim was a black youth. I refuse to go there because I would never consider doing that myself. I am perhaps amongst the most cynical of people but if I had that little confidence in my fellow man............I'm not sure how I would function on a daily basis.

http://www.pbs.org/w...ur-ground-laws/

And Roman looked specifically at “justified” homicides, which as defined by the FBI, are when police determine a private citizen has killed someone who is committing a felony, such as attempted murder, rape or armed robbery.

 

Roman found that the killings of black people by whites were more likely to be considered justified than the killings of white people by blacks

[Mavric]

In the case of the ex-girlfriend, we do have both witnesses on that incident? Did we get Zimmerman's side of the story or just hers?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Both Zimmerman and the fiancee filed against each other - she filed first and he filed after - and both presented evidence to the court in the matter. The judge ruled they should not have contact for a year. No guilt on either party was established.

That's pretty much what I was asking - if it ever went anywhere such that he could give his side of the story and/or what was decided.

[Mavric]

Wrong. Saying someone had more right to be somewhere is not the same as saying the other person didn't have a right to be there.

 

I see we've resorted to semantics.

 

Fine, I'll play your game. Trayvon Martin had an equivalent right to be walking there as Zimmerman did, unless you can point me to the law that says he did not. Tell me, who is allowed to walk on a sidewalk, and who is not?

Are you just going to keep ignoring my repeated explanation of why I said he could have not been walking there?

[Junior]

Wrong. Saying someone had more right to be somewhere is not the same as saying the other person didn't have a right to be there.

 

I see we've resorted to semantics.

 

Fine, I'll play your game. Trayvon Martin had an equivalent right to be walking there as Zimmerman did, unless you can point me to the law that says he did not. Tell me, who is allowed to walk on a sidewalk, and who is not?

Are you just going to keep ignoring my repeated explanation of why I said he could have not been walking there?

 

Please repost, I've apparently missed it in the deluge of responses.

[JJ Husker]

I simply refuse to believe that my fellow man, at this point in time, would sweep a shooting death under the rug because the victim was a black youth. I refuse to go there because I would never consider doing that myself. I am perhaps amongst the most cynical of people but if I had that little confidence in my fellow man............I'm not sure how I would function on a daily basis.

http://www.pbs.org/w...ur-ground-laws/

And Roman looked specifically at “justified” homicides, which as defined by the FBI, are when police determine a private citizen has killed someone who is committing a felony, such as attempted murder, rape or armed robbery.

 

Roman found that the killings of black people by whites were more likely to be considered justified than the killings of white people by blacks

 

 

Ya know, this is kind of off subject but I need to get this out there. I run into this problem, particularly in these forums, a lot.

 

 

I do not feel I am racist in the least. I do not feel I am against gay people in the least. Find me any protected status category of person and I do not believe I am predisposed against them. I like to judge people based on my firsthand experiences with them. I have gay/straight friends, white/Hispanic/oriental and even a very small number of black friends (small only because I don't know many or live by many). My friends cover the gamut of religions from non-believers to those bordering on fundamentalist lunacy. BUT, when I get involved in these discussions in the P&R forum on HB, I can't get over the feeling that many people think I am most bigoted, racist, civil rights infringing SOB on the planet. I think a lot of that stems from my tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt and not think the absolute worst about my fellow man. I think it is somewhat natural to assume others look at things in the same fashion we do ourselves. So, since I really am not predisposed against __________(fill in the blank) I sort of assume that others are that way too. Of course I know better. I know racism exists. I know people exist that will claim anything is racist, etc. I just find it unnerving that somehow, whenever I am on the side that is saying people are better than we think, I end up looking like the most offensive SOB in the discussion. That's all- just had to vent.

 

[carlfense]

I do not feel I am racist in the least. I do not feel I am against gay people in the least. Find me any protected status category of person and I do not believe I am predisposed against them. I like to judge people based on my firsthand experiences with them. I have gay/straight friends, white/Hispanic/oriental and even a very small number of black friends (small only because I don't know many or live by many). My friends cover the gamut of religions from non-believers to those bordering on fundamentalist lunacy. BUT, when I get involved in these discussions in the P&R forum on HB, I can't get over the feeling that many people think I am most bigoted, racist, civil rights infringing SOB on the planet. I think a lot of that stems from my tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt and not think the absolute worst about my fellow man. I think it is somewhat natural to assume others look at things in the same fashion we do ourselves. So, since I really am not predisposed against __________(fill in the blank) I sort of assume that others are that way too. Of course I know better. I know racism exists. I know people exist that will claim anything is racist, etc. I just find it unnerving that somehow, whenever I am on the side that is saying people are better than we think, I end up looking like the most offensive SOB in the discussion. That's all- just had to vent.

I don't think those things about you. In general, you're reasonable and thoughtful. Probably more than I am.

[Landlord]

I simply refuse to believe that my fellow man, at this point in time, would sweep a shooting death under the rug because the victim was a black youth. I refuse to go there because I would never consider doing that myself. I am perhaps amongst the most cynical of people but if I had that little confidence in my fellow man............I'm not sure how I would function on a daily basis.

 

Do you live in Nebraska or somewhere closeby? If so, you (and I) really have no idea what life is like in other regions of the country. Totally different, especially in the deep south.

[sd'sker]

I simply refuse to believe that my fellow man, at this point in time, would sweep a shooting death under the rug because the victim was a black youth. I refuse to go there because I would never consider doing that myself. I am perhaps amongst the most cynical of people but if I had that little confidence in my fellow man............I'm not sure how I would function on a daily basis.

http://www.pbs.org/w...ur-ground-laws/

And Roman looked specifically at “justified” homicides, which as defined by the FBI, are when police determine a private citizen has killed someone who is committing a felony, such as attempted murder, rape or armed robbery.

 

Roman found that the killings of black people by whites were more likely to be considered justified than the killings of white people by blacks

 

 

Ya know, this is kind of off subject but I need to get this out there. I run into this problem, particularly in these forums, a lot.

 

 

I do not feel I am racist in the least. I do not feel I am against gay people in the least. Find me any protected status category of person and I do not believe I am predisposed against them. I like to judge people based on my firsthand experiences with them. I have gay/straight friends, white/Hispanic/oriental and even a very small number of black friends (small only because I don't know many or live by many). My friends cover the gamut of religions from non-believers to those bordering on fundamentalist lunacy. BUT, when I get involved in these discussions in the P&R forum on HB, I can't get over the feeling that many people think I am most bigoted, racist, civil rights infringing SOB on the planet. I think a lot of that stems from my tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt and not think the absolute worst about my fellow man. I think it is somewhat natural to assume others look at things in the same fashion we do ourselves. So, since I really am not predisposed against __________(fill in the blank) I sort of assume that others are that way too. Of course I know better. I know racism exists. I know people exist that will claim anything is racist, etc. I just find it unnerving that somehow, whenever I am on the side that is saying people are better than we think, I end up looking like the most offensive SOB in the discussion. That's all- just had to vent.

i do not think that about you. i just enjoy your perspective as it seems intelligent and sometimes challenged my own.

 

i also think a big problem with racism is not necessarily bigoted individuals, but that a lot of racism has become institutionalized.

[Mavric]

Are you just going to keep ignoring my repeated explanation of why I said he could have not been walking there?

Please repost, I've apparently missed it in the deluge of responses.

I didn't make any statements that Martin shouldn't have been there. I was originally responding to carlfense's comment that if Zimmerman wouldn't have followed him nothing would have happened. Saying if Martin wouldn't have been walking there it wouldn't have happened is just as valid and, in fact, Zimmerman had more right to be there than Martin did as that's where he lived. Anything else implies the assumption that Zimmerman was the attacker which is speculation at best and a lie at worst.

[Mavric]

It absolutely matters. Has directly to do with the bolded and underline part you quoted. If he had been there one night, how could they have expected anyone to recognize him?

No. Just no. Your quibble was with me saying he was walking home. You went so far as to say that you were convinced I didn't know what I was talking about, or had not done as much research on the topic as I wanted to make it seem. Therefore, YOU made the argument about whether or not he had the right to be walking there and if that would be considered home. Period. Now, you've been soundly shown to be incorrect in your assertions, both about me and about if Martin was walking someplace he could consider home and you want to change the question to if we could expect anyone to recognize him? Sorry, friend. That's not going to happen.

Did anyone in Martin's family ever refer to it as his "home" or is that just your interpretation to help it make your argument?

[Junior]

It absolutely matters. Has directly to do with the bolded and underline part you quoted. If he had been there one night, how could they have expected anyone to recognize him?

No. Just no. Your quibble was with me saying he was walking home. You went so far as to say that you were convinced I didn't know what I was talking about, or had not done as much research on the topic as I wanted to make it seem. Therefore, YOU made the argument about whether or not he had the right to be walking there and if that would be considered home. Period. Now, you've been soundly shown to be incorrect in your assertions, both about me and about if Martin was walking someplace he could consider home and you want to change the question to if we could expect anyone to recognize him? Sorry, friend. That's not going to happen.

Did anyone in Martin's family ever refer to it as his "home" or is that just your interpretation to help it make your argument?

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/home

 

home [həʊm]

n

1.

the place or a place where one lives

have you no home to go to?

2.

a house or other dwelling

3.

a family or other group living in a house or other place

4.

a person's country, city, etc., esp viewed as a birthplace, a residence during one's early years, or a place dear to one

5.

(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Environmental Science) the environment or habitat of a person or animal

 

6. the place where something is invented, founded, or developed the US is the home of baseball

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home

 

 

A home is a place of residence or refuge.^[1] When it refers to a building, it is usually a place in which an individual or a family can live and store personal property, such as a single-family detached home or an apartment. It is generally a place to provide safety and is used as a center from which people or animals base their daily activities.

[Junior]

Are you just going to keep ignoring my repeated explanation of why I said he could have not been walking there?

Please repost, I've apparently missed it in the deluge of responses.

I didn't make any statements that Martin shouldn't have been there. I was originally responding to carlfense's comment that if Zimmerman wouldn't have followed him nothing would have happened. Saying if Martin wouldn't have been walking there it wouldn't have happened is just as valid and, in fact, Zimmerman had more right to be there than Martin did as that's where he lived. Anything else implies the assumption that Zimmerman was the attacker which is speculation at best and a lie at worst.

 

And if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass when he hopped. That's your grand explanation? I did see that... I guess I just didn't really think it explained anything.

[Whistlebritches]

It absolutely matters. Has directly to do with the bolded and underline part you quoted. If he had been there one night, how could they have expected anyone to recognize him?

No. Just no. Your quibble was with me saying he was walking home. You went so far as to say that you were convinced I didn't know what I was talking about, or had not done as much research on the topic as I wanted to make it seem. Therefore, YOU made the argument about whether or not he had the right to be walking there and if that would be considered home. Period. Now, you've been soundly shown to be incorrect in your assertions, both about me and about if Martin was walking someplace he could consider home and you want to change the question to if we could expect anyone to recognize him? Sorry, friend. That's not going to happen.

Did anyone in Martin's family ever refer to it as his "home" or is that just your interpretation to help it make your argument?

 

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Does it really matter if his destination was his place of permanent residency, his dad's girlfriends apartment, or even a friends house? He wasn't out scouring strange neighborhoods looking for a place to rob.

 

I assume your roundabout assertion is that GZ wouldn't recognize him because it wasn't Martin's "home". While I agree with that statement it still seems like only someone looking to be a hero would get out and pursue Martin. Call the cops and watch from a distance if you think something is going to happen.

[Mavric]

No. Just no. Your quibble was with me saying he was walking home. You went so far as to say that you were convinced I didn't know what I was talking about, or had not done as much research on the topic as I wanted to make it seem. Therefore, YOU made the argument about whether or not he had the right to be walking there and if that would be considered home. Period. Now, you've been soundly shown to be incorrect in your assertions, both about me and about if Martin was walking someplace he could consider home and you want to change the question to if we could expect anyone to recognize him? Sorry, friend. That's not going to happen.

Did anyone in Martin's family ever refer to it as his "home" or is that just your interpretation to help it make your argument?

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/home

 

home[həʊm]

n

1.

the place or a place where one lives

have you no home to go to?

2.

a house or other dwelling

3.

a family or other group living in a house or other place

4.

a person's country, city, etc., esp viewed as a birthplace, a residence during one's early years, or a place dear to one

5.

(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Environmental Science) the environment or habitat of a person or animal

 

 

6. the place where something is invented, founded, or developed the US is the home of baseball

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home

 

 

A home is a place of residence or refuge.^[1] When it refers to a building, it is usually a place in which an individual or a family can live and store personal property, such as a single-family detached home or an apartment. It is generally a place to provide safety and is used as a center from which people or animals base their daily activities.

So you don't have an answer to my question or you just don't want to admit you were wrong?

[JJ Husker]

I simply refuse to believe that my fellow man, at this point in time, would sweep a shooting death under the rug because the victim was a black youth. I refuse to go there because I would never consider doing that myself. I am perhaps amongst the most cynical of people but if I had that little confidence in my fellow man............I'm not sure how I would function on a daily basis.

 

Do you live in Nebraska or somewhere closeby? If so, you (and I) really have no idea what life is like in other regions of the country. Totally different, especially in the deep south.

 

I've lived in northern Colorado for about the last 27 years. However my first 23 years were in Nebraska, 4-5 of those in Lincoln. I understand that I have not been subjected to extremely diverse conditions. Quick-funny story; in about the mid to late 70's a new bank branch on the highway in my town was robbed by a black guy with a gun. The description they got from the witnesses was that the guy looked like Sammy Davis Jr. or sort of like Johnny Rogers. Of course he did, those were the only black guys anyone in my hometown would recognize. Later on when they ran his picture in the newspaper, he didn't look anything at all them. Seriously, I cannot remember there being one (1),not exaggerating, not a single minority person that lived in my town for 18 years. However, we did have a gay guy that lived 2 doors away. I don't remember it ever being any type of issue. I knew he talked really feminine, my parents knew about him, in fact my mom thought he was the greatest. Well he was a pretty nice guy. I still find it somewhat odd that, in our little sheltered community, he was so openly received.

 

When I was in college we road tripped to the Auburn game, 82 or 83, not sure which. We spent the first night at our fraternity at Mississippi State. I had my eyes opened that night. It was like I was transported back to a deep south plantation or something. We were sitting on the porch of this frat having a beer and shooting the breeze. Well these two black guys come walking down the street, didn't pique my interest at all but, one of these MSU frat guys says (really yells out) "Where you goin boy?" Those two poor guys just put their head down and picked up their pace. I was embarrassed and ashamed to be sitting there with them. Anyway, that was really my first experience with blatant racism and hate. I have since learned that it can and does happen anywhere and everywhere but, I truly believe it is getting better even if way too slowly. Still, every once in awhile you'll run across a person like that, that just doesn't get it.