Trayvon Martin and "Stand Your Ground" in FL

[zoogs]

Wow, thanks for sharing that, JJ. I hope things in the South are different now, but I suppose I wouldn't have the first-hand to know.

 

Going back to your original concern, I think what they are talking about is endemic, unconscious racism, and not necessarily a deliberate, calculated action to sweep something under the rug.

[knapplc]

Ya know, this is kind of off subject but I need to get this out there. I run into this problem, particularly in these forums, a lot.

 

 

I do not feel I am racist in the least. I do not feel I am against gay people in the least. Find me any protected status category of person and I do not believe I am predisposed against them. I like to judge people based on my firsthand experiences with them. I have gay/straight friends, white/Hispanic/oriental and even a very small number of black friends (small only because I don't know many or live by many). My friends cover the gamut of religions from non-believers to those bordering on fundamentalist lunacy. BUT, when I get involved in these discussions in the P&R forum on HB, I can't get over the feeling that many people think I am most bigoted, racist, civil rights infringing SOB on the planet. I think a lot of that stems from my tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt and not think the absolute worst about my fellow man. I think it is somewhat natural to assume others look at things in the same fashion we do ourselves. So, since I really am not predisposed against __________(fill in the blank) I sort of assume that others are that way too. Of course I know better. I know racism exists. I know people exist that will claim anything is racist, etc. I just find it unnerving that somehow, whenever I am on the side that is saying people are better than we think, I end up looking like the most offensive SOB in the discussion. That's all- just had to vent.

 

 

If you'll suffer some conjecture, I think we get that way (polarized) here because we're frequently discussing gray-area issues. Opinions on those issues may differ by a hair's margin, but as the conversation continues and we try to define points more and more (Junior's/Mavric's recent discussion is a good example) we seem to be working further and further apart. I think it's an illusion of conversation, and most certainly not indicative of our true dispositions.

 

I'm frequently thought of as "left-wing" here, but I'm not, just like you're not "right-wing." You're more right of where I am (or I'm more left of where you are) so we tend to fall into those roles in discussion, even though we're not so different.

 

It's a facet of this imperfect method of communication. I don't think of you as bigoted or right-wing. I really don't think anyone else here does, either.

[Junior]

 

So you don't have an answer to my question or you just don't want to admit you were wrong?

 

Seriously, what in the holy hell is your point? If he was going "home", to his father's, to his mother's, to his aunt's, to the house of his best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night... that was where he was staying and where he was supposed to be going. He had equivalent right to be walking on that sidewalk, walking through that neighborhood. Whether or not George Zimmerman should have recognized him is irrelevant. I wouldn't expect him too and it isn't at all the point.

[JJ Husker]

Thanks guys. +1's to everyone who was nice to me on this page lol.

[Junior]

I simply refuse to believe that my fellow man, at this point in time, would sweep a shooting death under the rug because the victim was a black youth. I refuse to go there because I would never consider doing that myself. I am perhaps amongst the most cynical of people but if I had that little confidence in my fellow man............I'm not sure how I would function on a daily basis.

 

Do you live in Nebraska or somewhere closeby? If so, you (and I) really have no idea what life is like in other regions of the country. Totally different, especially in the deep south.

 

I've lived in northern Colorado for about the last 27 years. However my first 23 years were in Nebraska, 4-5 of those in Lincoln. I understand that I have not been subjected to extremely diverse conditions. Quick-funny story; in about the mid to late 70's a new bank branch on the highway in my town was robbed by a black guy with a gun. The description they got from the witnesses was that the guy looked like Sammy Davis Jr. or sort of like Johnny Rogers. Of course he did, those were the only black guys anyone in my hometown would recognize. Later on when they ran his picture in the newspaper, he didn't look anything at all them. Seriously, I cannot remember there being one (1),not exaggerating, not a single minority person that lived in my town for 18 years. However, we did have a gay guy that lived 2 doors away. I don't remember it ever being any type of issue. I knew he talked really feminine, my parents knew about him, in fact my mom thought he was the greatest. Well he was a pretty nice guy. I still find it somewhat odd that, in our little sheltered community, he was so openly received.

 

When I was in college we road tripped to the Auburn game, 82 or 83, not sure which. We spent the first night at our fraternity at Mississippi State. I had my eyes opened that night. It was like I was transported back to a deep south plantation or something. We were sitting on the porch of this frat having a beer and shooting the breeze. Well these two black guys come walking down the street, didn't pique my interest at all but, one of these MSU frat guys says (really yells out) "Where you goin boy?" Those two poor guys just put their head down and picked up their pace. I was embarrassed and ashamed to be sitting there with them. Anyway, that was really my first experience with blatant racism and hate. I have since learned that it can and does happen anywhere and everywhere but, I truly believe it is getting better even if way too slowly. Still, every once in awhile you'll run across a person like that, that just doesn't get it.

 

Sadly, I saw that in Nebraska when I was in college... Oh must have been 1999. Does make you ashamed for the human race.

[walksalone]

By the way, this is exactly what this situation does NOT need:

 

Sharpton to lead 'Justice for Trayvon' rallies

 

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Rev. Al Sharpton announced Tuesday that he will lead a national "Justice for Trayvon" day in 100 cities this weekend to press for federal civil rights charges against George Zimmerman.

 

Zimmerman's acquittal over the weekend in the shooting death of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin has touched off protests around the country. The Justice Department is investigating whether Zimmerman violated Martin's civil rights when he shot the 17-year-old during a February 2012 confrontation in Sanford, Fla. Zimmerman said he fired his gun in self-defense.

 

 

---

 

 

 

I think, to someone predisposed to think that Zimmerman "profiled" Martin, that it looks pretty obvious that he did. But I doubt you're going to convince a jury of that with the available evidence.

 

Sharpton, world class attention whore/ambulance chaser...

[carlfense]

When I was in college we road tripped to the Auburn game, 82 or 83, not sure which. We spent the first night at our fraternity at Mississippi State. I had my eyes opened that night. It was like I was transported back to a deep south plantation or something. We were sitting on the porch of this frat having a beer and shooting the breeze. Well these two black guys come walking down the street, didn't pique my interest at all but, one of these MSU frat guys says (really yells out) "Where you goin boy?" Those two poor guys just put their head down and picked up their pace. I was embarrassed and ashamed to be sitting there with them. Anyway, that was really my first experience with blatant racism and hate. I have since learned that it can and does happen anywhere and everywhere but, I truly believe it is getting better even if way too slowly. Still, every once in awhile you'll run across a person like that, that just doesn't get it.

That's definitely eye opening.

 

My own version of that happened in Memorial Stadium in Lincoln. Two Missouri fans (shocking, right?) asked me about Brothers Bar. They said that they wanted to go there after the game . . . but that they wouldn't be interested "if it was dark in there." I was confused and replied with something like ". . . well it's a bar . . . it's not bright but you can see OK." They laughed and said, "No . . . is it dark in there?" Eventually I figured it out.

 

Missouri.

[Ziggy]

My problem with people complaining about Zimmerman being out of his vehicle, is what if Martin wasn't just packing skittles and tea? What if after he shot martin they found drugs, stolen goods, illegal guns, or something else illegal. What if Zimmerman caught a kid in the middle of planning on blowing up his school, or the community center? According to Zimmerman, he had stopped following Martin when he got out of his vehicle, and was getting an address for the police to meet him at, and was confronted by Martin and beat up. Which in recent interviews at least most of the jury also believed that Martin threw the first punch, and that Zimmerman was the one who screamed for help. What if this same situation happened and lead to the break of the Boston Bombing, or prevented Sandy Hook, then no one bats an eye.

Are you serious? You can't be serious. Please don't be serious.

This and Knapplc's response in post #433 is why sometimes I hate this board. People have opinions, people discuss their opinions which is great. But then people attack the poster for their opinions, instead of attacking the opinion. The fact that Knapp is a mod and did it as well pisses me off even more. If someone doesn't like what I have to say, tell me why, ask me questions that I can help clarify. But responses like Are you Serious? , Are you joking? Are you Kidding? do nothing to further the conversation, and if anything are condensing. Rant Finished.

And yes I was completely serious, and not joking in any way shape or form.

[knapplc]

My problem with people complaining about Zimmerman being out of his vehicle, is what if Martin wasn't just packing skittles and tea? What if after he shot martin they found drugs, stolen goods, illegal guns, or something else illegal. What if Zimmerman caught a kid in the middle of planning on blowing up his school, or the community center? According to Zimmerman, he had stopped following Martin when he got out of his vehicle, and was getting an address for the police to meet him at, and was confronted by Martin and beat up. Which in recent interviews at least most of the jury also believed that Martin threw the first punch, and that Zimmerman was the one who screamed for help. What if this same situation happened and lead to the break of the Boston Bombing, or prevented Sandy Hook, then no one bats an eye.

Are you serious? You can't be serious. Please don't be serious.

This and Knapplc's response in post #433 is why sometimes I hate this board. People have opinions, people discuss their opinions which is great. But then people attack the poster for their opinions, instead of attacking the opinion. The fact that Knapp is a mod and did it as well pisses me off even more. If someone doesn't like what I have to say, tell me why, ask me questions that I can help clarify. But responses like Are you Serious? , Are you joking? Are you Kidding? do nothing to further the conversation, and if anything are condensing. Rant Finished.

And yes I was completely serious, and not joking in any way shape or form.

 

I'm sure you meant #435. #433 was your post.

 

If you think my response and The Dude's were personal attacks, I'm going to invite you not to post in Politics & Religion anymore. Those aren't remotely personal attacks, and were very specifically discussing your opinion, not YOU.

[JJ Husker]

 

That's definitely eye opening.

 

My own version of that happened in Memorial Stadium in Lincoln. Two Missouri fans (shocking, right?) asked me about Brothers Bar. They said that they wanted to go there after the game . . . but that they wouldn't interested "if it was dark in there." I was confused and replied with something like ". . . well it's a bar . . . it's not bright but you can see OK." They laughed and said, "No . . . is it dark in there?" Eventually I figured it out.

 

Missouri.

I know these types of people are out there, in all walks of life, and you're liable to run into them anywhere so, yes racism does exist and still is a problem, probably still even more so in the deep south. But, I really believe it has gotten better. It seems you run into these dipshidiots (sorry-had to use the new word I heard yesterday) less and less as time goes by. I feel it is the same way with tolerance and acceptance of gay people. It sure seems like it's getting better to me. But, that thought got me into one hell of a discussion in another thread recently where, for some reason, I came off looking like the intolerant one. Oh well- all people, all the time or something like that.

[Ziggy]

My problem with people complaining about Zimmerman being out of his vehicle, is what if Martin wasn't just packing skittles and tea? What if after he shot martin they found drugs, stolen goods, illegal guns, or something else illegal. What if Zimmerman caught a kid in the middle of planning on blowing up his school, or the community center? According to Zimmerman, he had stopped following Martin when he got out of his vehicle, and was getting an address for the police to meet him at, and was confronted by Martin and beat up. Which in recent interviews at least most of the jury also believed that Martin threw the first punch, and that Zimmerman was the one who screamed for help. What if this same situation happened and lead to the break of the Boston Bombing, or prevented Sandy Hook, then no one bats an eye.

Are you serious? You can't be serious. Please don't be serious.

This and Knapplc's response in post #433 is why sometimes I hate this board. People have opinions, people discuss their opinions which is great. But then people attack the poster for their opinions, instead of attacking the opinion. The fact that Knapp is a mod and did it as well pisses me off even more. If someone doesn't like what I have to say, tell me why, ask me questions that I can help clarify. But responses like Are you Serious? , Are you joking? Are you Kidding? do nothing to further the conversation, and if anything are condensing. Rant Finished.

And yes I was completely serious, and not joking in any way shape or form.

 

I'm sure you meant #435. #433 was your post.

 

If you think my response and The Dude's were personal attacks, I'm going to invite you not to post in Politics & Religion anymore. Those aren't remotely personal attacks, and were very specifically discussing your opinion, not YOU.

 

Oh come on! Tell me what part of those responses are a discussion? You are implying that someones opinion is so stupid it is unbelievable and that they must be joking. That is not a discussion. If you wanted to discuss why my opinion in your mind and The Dudes mind is wrong, you state which parts of my post you find problems with while giving your opinion back up by some evidence. Just because you do not call someone stupid, or an idiot, the implication is still there.

[knapplc]

My problem with people complaining about Zimmerman being out of his vehicle, is what if Martin wasn't just packing skittles and tea? What if after he shot martin they found drugs, stolen goods, illegal guns, or something else illegal. What if Zimmerman caught a kid in the middle of planning on blowing up his school, or the community center? According to Zimmerman, he had stopped following Martin when he got out of his vehicle, and was getting an address for the police to meet him at, and was confronted by Martin and beat up. Which in recent interviews at least most of the jury also believed that Martin threw the first punch, and that Zimmerman was the one who screamed for help. What if this same situation happened and lead to the break of the Boston Bombing, or prevented Sandy Hook, then no one bats an eye.

Are you serious? You can't be serious. Please don't be serious.

This and Knapplc's response in post #433 is why sometimes I hate this board. People have opinions, people discuss their opinions which is great. But then people attack the poster for their opinions, instead of attacking the opinion. The fact that Knapp is a mod and did it as well pisses me off even more. If someone doesn't like what I have to say, tell me why, ask me questions that I can help clarify. But responses like Are you Serious? , Are you joking? Are you Kidding? do nothing to further the conversation, and if anything are condensing. Rant Finished.

And yes I was completely serious, and not joking in any way shape or form.

 

I'm sure you meant #435. #433 was your post.

 

If you think my response and The Dude's were personal attacks, I'm going to invite you not to post in Politics & Religion anymore. Those aren't remotely personal attacks, and were very specifically discussing your opinion, not YOU.

 

Oh come on! Tell me what part of those responses are a discussion? You are implying that someones opinion is so stupid it is unbelievable and that they must be joking. That is not a discussion. If you wanted to discuss why my opinion in your mind and The Dudes mind is wrong, you state which parts of my post you find problems with while giving your opinion back up by some evidence. Just because you do not call someone stupid, or an idiot, the implication is still there.

The only person making this personal is you. That's why you have that PM. Go read it.

[The Dude]

My problem with people complaining about Zimmerman being out of his vehicle, is what if Martin wasn't just packing skittles and tea? What if after he shot martin they found drugs, stolen goods, illegal guns, or something else illegal. What if Zimmerman caught a kid in the middle of planning on blowing up his school, or the community center? According to Zimmerman, he had stopped following Martin when he got out of his vehicle, and was getting an address for the police to meet him at, and was confronted by Martin and beat up. Which in recent interviews at least most of the jury also believed that Martin threw the first punch, and that Zimmerman was the one who screamed for help. What if this same situation happened and lead to the break of the Boston Bombing, or prevented Sandy Hook, then no one bats an eye.

Are you serious? You can't be serious. Please don't be serious.

This and Knapplc's response in post #433 is why sometimes I hate this board. People have opinions, people discuss their opinions which is great. But then people attack the poster for their opinions, instead of attacking the opinion. The fact that Knapp is a mod and did it as well pisses me off even more. If someone doesn't like what I have to say, tell me why, ask me questions that I can help clarify. But responses like Are you Serious? , Are you joking? Are you Kidding? do nothing to further the conversation, and if anything are condensing. Rant Finished.

And yes I was completely serious, and not joking in any way shape or form.

 

I'm sure you meant #435. #433 was your post.

 

If you think my response and The Dude's were personal attacks, I'm going to invite you not to post in Politics & Religion anymore. Those aren't remotely personal attacks, and were very specifically discussing your opinion, not YOU.

 

Oh come on! Tell me what part of those responses are a discussion? You are implying that someones opinion is so stupid it is unbelievable and that they must be joking. That is not a discussion. If you wanted to discuss why my opinion in your mind and The Dudes mind is wrong, you state which parts of my post you find problems with while giving your opinion back up by some evidence. Just because you do not call someone stupid, or an idiot, the implication is still there.

I was attacking logic you chose to use, not you personally.

 

To me, the "killing him may have prevented a future crime!" line of reasoning is as bad as the "he put himself in a situation he didn't need to be in, so it's his fault he was the victim of a violent act!" line of reasoning.

 

But at least with the latter I can understand why someone would make an exception for Zimmerman's case, since they really don't like what he did to put himself in that situation. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand it.

 

If you want to expand on your point to try to help me understand where you're coming from, I'm all ears. But it will have to be some brilliant f'ing Mark Twain sh#t because there's just so much wrong with that kind of logic.

[Micheal]

Kinda on topic, some Protesters in Houston Delaying Ambulance and people on the highway

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nbc-news/52498312#52498312

[knapplc]

A boy gets shot, there's a trial, and I disagree with the outcome and want the laws changed. Best method of effecting change? Start a riot.

 

 

Way to go, geniuses. That'll show 'em.