Christian Topics

[NUance]

I am a Christian, but I have lots of questions. I’ve found some answers. But for every answer I find to my satisfaction, it seems like I come up with a couple more questions. I suspect that there are some Christians on this board with similar questions—or perhaps some non-Christian posters who have questions about Christianity—so here goes.

btw, I am hoping this can be a thread to discuss God, the Bible, and Christianity—sort of an online bible study—not to debate the existence of God, but rather to discuss aspects of Christianity. I'm not sure it will be possible to have such a conversation on HB, but it's worth a try. (O/U on the number of posts before some joker touts the Flying Spaghetti Monster: 12)

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Okay, one question I have concerns the Holy Spirit. At one extreme, some Born Again Christians claim you can’t be Born Again until you receive the Holy Spirit. At the other extreme, I had one minister tell me that the Holy Spirit does not exist today—that it only existed during the generation alive when Christ was crucified. He said those who claim to have received the Holy Spirit are headed down the wrong path. So my question is, what gives? Does the Holy Spirit exist? And if so, do you need to receive the Holy Spirit in order to be born again?

[Landlord]

About time this gets made NUance

I'll probably take some time responding after church!

[NUance]

Ha ha! I was hoping you'd respond. You have some good insights.

 

I have some opinions on the topic--the Holy Spirit--but I am genuinely interested in hear what others have to say and learning more.

[HuskerShark]

Ha ha! I was hoping you'd respond. You have some good insights.

 

I have some opinions on the topic--the Holy Spirit--but I am genuinely interested in hear what others have to say and learning more.

 

I think it is widely believed in Christianity that the Holy Spirit lives inside of us all. So in order to seek our and accept the Holy Spirit, you must search inside yourself.

[krc1995]

I have struggled really hard with my faith for about two years. I just don't understand how many wonderful people of different faiths across the world are condemned to hell because they do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior. I also don't think that the principles of Chrisianity place enough guidance for how we live on this earth and our interactions with nature. I investigated other religions like Buddism, Hinduism, Taoism, but found there things in those religions that didn't resonant with me either. I think I am doing my children a diservice by not adhering to some form of religous doctrine. I find that families that go to church regularly have a greater sense of identitiy and worldly purpose

 

This is a timely discussion for me. At the begining of the year I had resolved to figure out what religion I wanted to raise my son by year's end. Time's a ticking

[NUance]

I have struggled really hard with my faith for about two years. I just don't understand how many wonderful people of different faiths across the world are condemned to hell because they do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior. I also don't think that the principles of Chrisianity place enough guidance for how we live on this earth and our interactions with nature. I investigated other religions like Buddism, Hinduism, Taoism, but found there things in those religions that didn't resonant with me either. I think I am doing my children a diservice by not adhering to some form of religous doctrine. I find that families that go to church regularly have a greater sense of identitiy and worldly purpose

 

This is a timely discussion for me. At the begining of the year I had resolved to figure out what religion I wanted to raise my son by year's end. Time's a ticking

That's another question I struggle with--why would good people of another faith not be accepted by God? I'm not sure I have the answer--but here is what I think: I think that this train of thought is put forward by the various religions and church organizations themselves. Not by God. I think churches and religions generally start out on the right path, worshiping God. But over the years and centuries the church organization becomes a vast bureaucracy. Like any bureaucracy its main objective is to enlarge itself. And I think this is done by stating that there is only one true religion, church, denomination, etc--its very own.

 

I guess I am skeptical of church organizations. I worship God. Not any particular church or denomination. I go to church (well, not today. lol). But I view the church organization itself as a sort of support group for helping me to worship God.

 

I wonder if there is anything in the Muslim religion, Buddhism, Judaism, or other religions that is akin to the Christian Holy Spirit? Was this only given to Christians?

[krc1995]

There is an idea I have read about that the Universe is god/energy/ or other connecting source. I think people join religons to combat fear and to have an unifying identify with others. I have had experiences in which I am sure there is a God; I am just not sure there is one god. Maybe everyone is praying to the same God and we just take different roads to communicate with him?

 

I go to the most wonderful Methodist church when I am back in Nebraska. The pastor is so wonderful and I get a sense of relief when I hear his sermons. A few years back his sermon covered faith and what is faith. Faith is not seeing, but knowing and trusting. I guess we all need to have faith in something outside of ourselves.

[Omaha-Husker]

Edit: Changed my mind. I was not critical of religion in anyway in my post, I think I was pretty fair actually. I don't think it is really my place considering I am not religious though.

[Landlord]

 

 

Okay, one question I have concerns the Holy Spirit. At one extreme, some Born Again Christians claim you can’t be Born Again until you receive the Holy Spirit. At the other extreme, I had one minister tell me that the Holy Spirit does not exist today—that it only existed during the generation alive when Christ was crucified. He said those who claim to have received the Holy Spirit are headed down the wrong path. So my question is, what gives? Does the Holy Spirit exist? And if so, do you need to receive the Holy Spirit in order to be born again?

I'd be really interested to know what Scripture that minister used in defense of the lack of existence of the Spirit, since I don't think there is any.

My understanding has always been (and I'll admit I'm a bit indoctrinated) that the Spirit is the assurance of our salvation. Really it doesn't get any more simple than Romans 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." Further, Ephesians 1:13-14 talks about this topic pretty clearly as well "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Now, it's certainly hypothetically possible that Paul (and Jesus, and John, and others) were only meaning the intent of these sayings to be addressed to the believers of the time and not to every person in history, but that leaves some seriously difficult problems. The first of which being, how are we saved? Being a Calvinist myself, another question is whether or not we can lose our salvation without a supernatural rebirthing or indwelling of God's presence in our souls. How do we know we're saved without assurance? Jesus said we needed to be born of the Spirit to belong to God, that we must be born again, and that He would send the Spirit as the "helper" to testify about Him. Another question that comes to mind is what to do with the massive amount of Old Testament and New Testament Scripture that talks about the Spirit? Implying the Spirit only existed a certain time implies that he isn't eternal, and thus that the trinity isn't real, and thus that tons of other things fall apart as well. Who inspired the writers of God's word before and after Jesus' generation?

Nuance, I know from our talks that you're confident in the existence and power of the Spirit, but as to your question, I think it's a slight strawman. You don't need to receive the Spirit in order to be born again only in that they aren't two separate things - receiving the Spirit is itself being born again. We could certainly debate finer theological truths in this instance, but I think the major points of distinction are pretty cut and dry.

 

I have struggled really hard with my faith for about two years. I just don't understand how many wonderful people of different faiths across the world are condemned to hell because they do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior. I also don't think that the principles of Chrisianity place enough guidance for how we live on this earth and our interactions with nature. I investigated other religions like Buddism, Hinduism, Taoism, but found there things in those religions that didn't resonant with me either. I think I am doing my children a diservice by not adhering to some form of religous doctrine. I find that families that go to church regularly have a greater sense of identitiy and worldly purpose

This is a timely discussion for me. At the begining of the year I had resolved to figure out what religion I wanted to raise my son by year's end. Time's a ticking

That's another question I struggle with--why would good people of another faith not be accepted by God? I'm not sure I have the answer--but here is what I think: I think that this train of thought is put forward by the various religions and church organizations themselves. Not by God. I think churches and religions generally start out on the right path, worshiping God. But over the years and centuries the church organization becomes a vast bureaucracy. Like any bureaucracy its main objective is to enlarge itself. And I think this is done by stating that there is only one true religion, church, denomination, etc--its very own.

I guess I am skeptical of church organizations. I worship God. Not any particular church or denomination. I go to church (well, not today. lol). But I view the church organization itself as a sort of support group for helping me to worship God.

I wonder if there is anything in the Muslim religion, Buddhism, Judaism, or other religions that is akin to the Christian Holy Spirit? Was this only given to Christians?

krc, and NUance for that matter, those are tough questions. I'm of the opinion that we can get hints as to the answers, but we won't ever find something that completely satisfies while we're still human and imperfect. Maybe I'm just feeling lazy or overwhelmed at the prospect of addressing this, or maybe I just feel there's no right way to, but here's a few brief comments I would make towards the sorts of things you seem to be struggling with or confused about. Maybe we can go from there

1. The gift of salvation is exactly that; a gift. Think along the lines of Christmas or a birthday - if someone offers you a gift, you generally accept it. However, if you were not to accept it, could you still benefit from it? If you buy me socks and I say "no thanks" can I enjoy the perks of those socks without putting them on? I don't think salvation should be thought of as this abritrary checklist of things God came up with... "Okay, now we need to come up with something specific that they HAVE to do to make it to heaven" More realistically, I think what it looks like is this. We are all guilty of rebelling against our Creator, and the rightful and just punishment for that is spiritual death. God offers us a free, undeserving gift, and we either choose to accept it or not. If we do choose to accept it, it changes us; not because it must or because we have to let it, but just because that is the nature of the gift. If you owed fifty trillion dollars to the bank and they were going to imprison your family, take your possessions and ruin your life, and someone stepped in and paid your debt for no reason and when you didn't deserve it, what kind of response would your heart make except for indescribable, unavoidable and neverending thanks and love towards that person for what they did for you?

2. Might I submit that it's actually untenable, disrespectful and intolerant to claim that all religions do or can lead to God? I say so because:

untenable: The reason being that the claims of these religions are incompatible. Hinduism and Buddhism believe the human problem is that we re trapped within samsara (the cycle of rebirth). Islam believes the problem is human weakness and submission to Allah results in paradise. Shintoism thinks the problem is cosmic disharmony and the goal is a healthy, balanced life. If we use a mountain analogy, people believe God is like a mountain and all the religions lead up to Him via different paths, but this analogy fails because world religions do not even agree on the destination, let alone the roads. Either Jesus was God or He was not.

disrespectful: The only way to claim all religions lead to God is by ignoring their critical truth claims, ignoring what they actually claim and viewing religions as stories made up to convey profound experiences. While it is true that there is no one correct way to practice faith, no perfect image of church leadership or organization, or anything else that is focused upon human details, there is one true reality of God expressed by Jesus Himself: ""I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." This is not a made up rule, this is just reality. Another way of wording what Jesus is telling us is simply to say, "You can't reach truth by following lies."

intolerant: Religions claim absolute truths. Claiming that they all lead to the same place or person even though their claims are so dramatically different is a form of pluralism. As soon as this attitude is met with a claim to absolute truth (like religion does) it cannot tolerate it, and says "You can say whatever you like, as long as you do not say it is true."

3. Jesus' message and purpose in living, dying and resurrecting, is exactly the opposite of every other religion. Religion is 1. human beings trying to know the ultimate reality and 2. Human beings trying to be saved.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is 1. The story of God reaching down to us, not the other way around and 2. Despite our fruitless efforts of trying to reach up and be saved, God has made us right with him, not the other way around.

4. I agree that the principles of Christianity aren't enough; heck, even the Bible agrees with that. Just reading through the Gospels or Paul's letters is not enough to "get" it. That's the point of the Holy Spirit

[krc1995]

not my thread, but thank you. I think I might have to reread a few times

[NUance]

Okay, one question I have concerns the Holy Spirit. At one extreme, some Born Again Christians claim you can’t be Born Again until you receive the Holy Spirit. At the other extreme, I had one minister tell me that the Holy Spirit does not exist today—that it only existed during the generation alive when Christ was crucified. He said those who claim to have received the Holy Spirit are headed down the wrong path. So my question is, what gives? Does the Holy Spirit exist? And if so, do you need to receive the Holy Spirit in order to be born again?

 

I'd be really interested to know what Scripture that minister used in defense of the lack of existence of the Spirit, since I don't think there is any.

 

My understanding has always been (and I'll admit I'm a bit indoctrinated) that the Spirit is the assurance of our salvation. Really it doesn't get any more simple than Romans 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." Further, Ephesians 1:13-14 talks about this topic pretty clearly as well "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

 

Now, it's certainly hypothetically possible that Paul (and Jesus, and John, and others) were only meaning the intent of these sayings to be addressed to the believers of the time and not to every person in history, but that leaves some seriously difficult problems. The first of which being, how are we saved? Being a Calvinist myself, another question is whether or not we can lose our salvation without a supernatural rebirthing or indwelling of God's presence in our souls. How do we know we're saved without assurance? Jesus said we needed to be born of the Spirit to belong to God, that we must be born again, and that He would send the Spirit as the "helper" to testify about Him. Another question that comes to mind is what to do with the massive amount of Old Testament and New Testament Scripture that talks about the Spirit? Implying the Spirit only existed a certain time implies that he isn't eternal, and thus that the trinity isn't real, and thus that tons of other things fall apart as well. Who inspired the writers of God's word before and after Jesus' generation?

 

Nuance, I know from our talks that you're confident in the existence and power of the Spirit, but as to your question, I think it's a slight strawman. You don't need to receive the Spirit in order to be born again only in that they aren't two separate things - receiving the Spirit is itself being born again. We could certainly debate finer theological truths in this instance, but I think the major points of distinction are pretty cut and dry.

Yeah, this is pretty much spot on to what I believe. I too wouldn't go so far as to say that you *must* receive the Holy Spirit in order to be born again. But those who have received the Holy Spirit are born again. /But that's just my opinion. I don't know that anyone really has the definitive answer--on earth anyway.

 

btw, When I talk about "receiving" the Holy Spirit I am not talking about merely saying a prayer or reciting some creed of the church. Receiving the Holy Spirit is a real, tangible--albeit personal--experience. If you have any doubts about whether you've received the Holy Spirit then you haven't. It's not something you can mistake. It engulfs your whole being--for a time at least. But also, it's not something you can prove to others. It's something that a person has to experience themselves. Sadly, I think a lot of people don't.

[NUance]

Edit: Changed my mind. I was not critical of religion in anyway in my post, I think I was pretty fair actually. I don't think it is really my place considering I am not religious though.

I dunno. I don't mean to dissuade people from contributing just because they aren't religious. The questions you may have about religion are probably many of the same questions I have. (I just was hoping that this thread would be a discussion of aspects of religion that people have questions about--rather than spiraling into a debate about whether God exists or not. Like every other religion thread. lol)

 

/I didn't read your original post, btw. So I have no idea what you said.

[Undone]

I have also never once heard this argument, NUance. In John 14:26, Christ lets his disciples know that the Father's sending of the Holy Spirit is a future tense thing. It reads, "whom the Father will send in My name." Extremely hard to argue against that only being a periodical reference that expires with time.

 

Again, for what it's worth, I've never once heard any Scriptual arguments made to this point. As in, any specific passages that would make any sort of case here.

 

Also, almost all sects and denominations (be it catholic or protestant) confer on the triunity of God. The trinity concept: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The Hebrew word translated "God" is the word El or Elohim. Elohim is the plural form of El. With regards to the argument that the old testament doesn't speak overtly of the trinity, the plural form is used 2607 of the 2845 times the word "God" is used in the Old Testament. Not only is the word for God usually used in the plural form, but several verses refer to God as "Us." such as:

 

"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..."

 

So this is a concept found throughout the entire Bible. Since us Christians trust in the eternality of God, the Holy Spirit can't not exist today.

 

 

Sidenote: I try to tread very, very lightly when discussing theological differences with other groups. Obviously, none of us have every last bit of theology correct. If heresy is defined as believing/spreading a Biblical error, then surely all of us hold some kind of heresies in our heart. I definitely have some of it wrong.

 

Awesome discussion here, though!

[Landlord]

I have also never once heard this argument, NUance. In John 14:26, Christ lets his disciples know that the Father's sending of the Holy Spirit is a future tense thing. It reads, "whom the Father will send in My name." Extremely hard to argue against that only being a periodical reference that expires with time.

 

Again, for what it's worth, I've never once heard any Scriptual arguments made to this point. As in, any specific passages that would make any sort of case here.

 

Also, almost all sects and denominations (be it catholic or protestant) confer on the triunity of God. The trinity concept: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The Hebrew word translated "God" is the word El or Elohim. Elohim is the plural form of El. With regards to the argument that the old testament doesn't speak overtly of the trinity, the plural form is used 2607 of the 2845 times the word "God" is used in the Old Testament. Not only is the word for God usually used in the plural form, but several verses refer to God as "Us." such as:

 

"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..."

 

So this is a concept found throughout the entire Bible. Since us Christians trust in the eternality of God, the Holy Spirit can't not exist today.

 

 

Sidenote: I try to tread very, very lightly when discussing theological differences with other groups. Obviously, none of us have every last bit of theology correct. If heresy is defined as believing/spreading a Biblical error, then surely all of us hold some kind of heresies in our heart. I definitely have some of it wrong.

 

Awesome discussion here, though!

 

Glad to see other Christians coming out of the woodwork to contribute

[JJ Husker]

I have a few thoughts on the matter based on my upbringing as a Lutheran, conversion to Catholicism, and just some of my thoughts and experiences. I apologize if it seems haphazard.

 

I definitely believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit. I think it can come to you in different ways. Baptism, a born again experience, simply through you conscience, etc. I am not convinced everyone that receives the Holy Spirit has a obvious born again experience or enlightenment. Catholics teach that baptism places an indelible mark on your soul (and I believe that) but it is silly to think a baby or even an adult has that "born again" experience at that same time. I am certain that if a person is open to the Holy Spirit, that it can and will provide strength and guidance. I also think a person can have an overwhelming experience, speaking in tongues, etc. caused by the HS. My church experiences have been fairly rigid but I have ventured a few services of the type that really explore summoning the HS and have seen and felt things that are not easily explainable with science or psychology. I am sure it exists and can be an immensely powerful force.

 

As far as other religions, I am not sure what all their beliefs are but, I have a personal thought that sort of flies in face of traditional Christianity. I believe that it is necessary for me and other Christians to believe in Christ to be saved but, I thinl God probably has some other ways for non-Christians to come to him. I also struggle with the thought that Christianity is the only right way. One thing a pastor told me years ago leads my thinking on many things like this. He said "Don't you think that God in his infinite wisdom will do the right thing?"