Would Tommie Frazier make it today? Stewart Mandel answers this crucial question

[knapplc]

Then why did Cody adjust better?

 

Offhand I'd say Conference USA circa 2012 is a lot easier than the ACC circa 2004. Also it's fair to say that Cody is probably better overall than Dailey was. Cody's not chopped liver.

[Count 'Bility]

Why the facepalm? Never heard of the Turmanator? KC is right, and we saw it happen.

 

Joe Daily consistently looked good one play and so horrible the next. Turman although not flashy was consistent. Daily repeated this pattern at NC (I watched him in many of the games he started there) and never would have led any of our teams to a NC.

But by the time he got to NC, he was mentally fried. It's impossible to speculate how good he couldve been had Solich been retained and he had a continuingly developing Pelini defense behind him. I bet he would'a been pretty good. Hell, the kid was unanimously deemed our savior before even stepping foot on campus.

 

Then why did Cody adjust better?

Conference USA vs ACC for one.

[The Dude]

What are people seeing in Cody Green that I'm not? 98th in completion percentage, 100th QB rating. That's worse than bad.

 

Plus just watching him in-game it's glaringly obvious he's comically awful.

[zoogs]

We had a good system and I think that accounts for Tommie's efficiency. Was he that technically good of a passer? In the college ranks, plenty of able quarterbacks who don't quite possess the pure skills that are more of a requirement in the NFL, will post up pretty good statistics. I think Pat White is a good example, and Tim Tebow, another multiple MNC-winning running QB.

 

In today's era, minus blood clot issues, Frazier probably would've been drafted, maybe even high (but minus blood clot issues, wouldn't he have been drafted anyway?...Crouch went in the 3rd round, right? as a receiver). But I think he nonetheless would've struggled to find a place if he were truly obstinate, as Crouch was, about sticking with the QB position. Pat White and Tebow are both lucky enough to be battling for their careers at this point on no-risk contracts from teams that didn't draft them.

 

And Mandel is a little wrong in characterizing him as a triple option QB; that wasn't really Nebraska's system. We were a power team that employed tough, running QBs and did use the option a fair amount of the time.

[VA Husker Fan]

I like the Matt Turman legend as much as anyone, but people also seem to forget that he was so ineffective against Kansas State that Osborne put Berringer in the 2nd half when he really shouldn't have been on the field, flak jacket or not. I doubt we beat Colorado or Miami with him. 1994 would've been just another year where we steamrolled weaker teams who couldn't stop us had they been in the huddle with our offense, and losing to strong teams that could shut down a one-dimensional offense.

 

It's simply an example that you could put in even a decent QB (which Turman wasn't) and win with that team.

 

With that O Line, the toughest receivers (not most talented) we've ever had at Nebraska, Lawrence Phillips at RB and a bone-crunching defense, which of these QBs would have failed to get us a Big 8 title during the Frazier years?

 

Scott Frost

Eric Crouch

Jammal Lord

Joe Dailey

Zac Taylor

Sam Keller

Joe Ganz

Zac Lee

Cody Green

Taylor Martinez

 

 

We all know Frost, Crouch and maybe Joey Ganz would have gotten us not only the conference title but probably also into the National Championship hunt. I'd throw Taylor Martinez in there, whose run-first skills lend themselves better to Osborne's offense than Watson's/Beck's. Jammal Lord would likely have excelled on those teams, and almost certainly would have gotten us the Big 8 championship and possibly the National Championship game.

 

Even though Zac Taylor, Zac Lee and Sam Keller had entirely opposite skill sets to what Osborne needed, I'd venture to say they could have gotten us at the very least a Big 8 championship.

 

The weakest guys on this list are Cody Green and Joe Dailey, and I'd put $$$ down that they'd have, at the very least, gotten us the Big 8 title each of Frazier's four years. Not much doubt in my mind.

I'm trying to remember, didn't Frazier do more than just get us Big 8 titles? The claim to fame for Tommie and the mid-90s teams were the championships and outplaying FSU in a 3rd championship game. Saying that we'd have won the Big 8 with others, yeah, probably, but that's not the same as dropping them in and getting the same results.

 

Plus, you can look at those guys and project them to win the Big 8 or go to and maybe even win a championship game, but there's no way to know. Many of those guys just weren't consistent enough to not cost us a game or two. Plus, 95 was a tumultuous year, with some of these guys does the team really stay together without Tommie as a leader on the offense?

[HuskerThor]

Well I'll second the Joe Dailey facepalm.

 

There's another thread here about the Most Boneheaded Plays, and Dailey's name came up for running out of bounds too early and too easily.

 

Quarterbacking is really about the leadership intangibles, and Tommie Frazier was all about the will to win. They don't win the '94 Orange Bowl with Brooke Berringer, and if they don't win that game, we're probably not having this conversation.

 

Those '94 and '95 teams were awesome, and maybe we could have gone just as far with a couple of the quarterbacks listed, but the Huskers had a coupled decades worth of great defenses, top-flight offensive lines, and a deep pipeline of running backs, and it still took a Tommie Frazier to make a good team legendary. So yeah, give him the credit.

 

+1

 

I agree with everything you're saying. Tommie was the icing on that cake.

 

Joe Daily=Joke

Jammal Lord= Joke

[Count 'Bility]

Well I'll second the Joe Dailey facepalm.

 

There's another thread here about the Most Boneheaded Plays, and Dailey's name came up for running out of bounds too early and too easily.

 

Quarterbacking is really about the leadership intangibles, and Tommie Frazier was all about the will to win. They don't win the '94 Orange Bowl with Brooke Berringer, and if they don't win that game, we're probably not having this conversation.

 

Those '94 and '95 teams were awesome, and maybe we could have gone just as far with a couple of the quarterbacks listed, but the Huskers had a coupled decades worth of great defenses, top-flight offensive lines, and a deep pipeline of running backs, and it still took a Tommie Frazier to make a good team legendary. So yeah, give him the credit.

 

+1

 

I agree with everything you're saying. Tommie was the icing on that cake.

 

Joe Daily=Joke

Jammal Lord= Joke

Do you think Tommie couldve overcame last year's defensive meltdowns and turn ALL 4 of those losses into wins?

 

C'mon now. I understand the leadership thing, but give me a break. It doesnt matter how talented you are, or how demanding of your teammates you are, you still have to have talented guys around. Football always has, and always will be the ultimate team sport, and, in college and pros especially, your success as an individual hinges greatly on the performance of 21+ other guys. Not 2. Not 3. 21.

[Blackshirt96]

Why the facepalm? Never heard of the Turmanator? KC is right, and we saw it happen.

To add to that Osborne stated a few years after he retired. That he probably would have still won the '95 title with his thrid string QB.

[Nobody]

Why the facepalm? Never heard of the Turmanator? KC is right, and we saw it happen.

To add to that Osborne stated a few years after he retired. That he probably would have still won the '95 title with his thrid string QB.

 

Are you serious?

[Guy Chamberlin]

Well I'll second the Joe Dailey facepalm.

 

There's another thread here about the Most Boneheaded Plays, and Dailey's name came up for running out of bounds too early and too easily.

 

Quarterbacking is really about the leadership intangibles, and Tommie Frazier was all about the will to win. They don't win the '94 Orange Bowl with Brooke Berringer, and if they don't win that game, we're probably not having this conversation.

 

Those '94 and '95 teams were awesome, and maybe we could have gone just as far with a couple of the quarterbacks listed, but the Huskers had a coupled decades worth of great defenses, top-flight offensive lines, and a deep pipeline of running backs, and it still took a Tommie Frazier to make a good team legendary. So yeah, give him the credit.

 

+1

 

I agree with everything you're saying. Tommie was the icing on that cake.

 

Joe Daily=Joke

Jammal Lord= Joke

Do you think Tommie couldve overcame last year's defensive meltdowns and turn ALL 4 of those losses into wins?

 

C'mon now. I understand the leadership thing, but give me a break. It doesnt matter how talented you are, or how demanding of your teammates you are, you still have to have talented guys around. Football always has, and always will be the ultimate team sport, and, in college and pros especially, your success as an individual hinges greatly on the performance of 21+ other guys. Not 2. Not 3. 21.

 

I agree with you on this: we wouldn't be talking about Tommie Frazier if Tommie Frazier had the 2012 Husker Defense. He wouldn't run this particular offense as well as Taylor Martinez, either. And if we converted our running backs to the triple option, we'd still need an O line strong enough to string plays out to the sidelines. Frazier was recruited to work in an offensive system, a pretty rare one at that, and nobody ran it better. His was a college career, and not many colleges would have been able to showcase him. A unique talent in a unique situation, so it's hard to compare.

 

Again, good defenses and offensive lines were pretty common at Nebraska for about three decades, and some good Husker teams had largely forgotten quarterbacks (remember Craig Sundberg? Tom Sorely? Gerry Gdowski?). None of those Husker offenses had to support a defense ranked out of the Top 35, most often they were Top 10. I honestly don't know how Tommie Frazier does on a weaker team, but he came in as a freshman and appeared to kick a traditionally 9 - 3 team up another notch.

 

I say a big part of it was killer instinct. Some guys have it and it rubs off on the whole team. Other guys don't. Like Joe Dailey. Maybe he was treated unfairly, but it's not unfair to say he lacked the killer instinct that makes a Tommie Frazier. I think Martinez has some of that killer instinct himself. I just wish it would translate to his holding onto the ball.

[Count 'Bility]

Well I'll second the Joe Dailey facepalm.

 

There's another thread here about the Most Boneheaded Plays, and Dailey's name came up for running out of bounds too early and too easily.

 

Quarterbacking is really about the leadership intangibles, and Tommie Frazier was all about the will to win. They don't win the '94 Orange Bowl with Brooke Berringer, and if they don't win that game, we're probably not having this conversation.

 

Those '94 and '95 teams were awesome, and maybe we could have gone just as far with a couple of the quarterbacks listed, but the Huskers had a coupled decades worth of great defenses, top-flight offensive lines, and a deep pipeline of running backs, and it still took a Tommie Frazier to make a good team legendary. So yeah, give him the credit.

 

+1

 

I agree with everything you're saying. Tommie was the icing on that cake.

 

Joe Daily=Joke

Jammal Lord= Joke

Do you think Tommie couldve overcame last year's defensive meltdowns and turn ALL 4 of those losses into wins?

 

C'mon now. I understand the leadership thing, but give me a break. It doesnt matter how talented you are, or how demanding of your teammates you are, you still have to have talented guys around. Football always has, and always will be the ultimate team sport, and, in college and pros especially, your success as an individual hinges greatly on the performance of 21+ other guys. Not 2. Not 3. 21.

 

I agree with you on this: we wouldn't be talking about Tommie Frazier if Tommie Frazier had the 2012 Husker Defense. He wouldn't run this particular offense as well as Taylor Martinez, either. And if we converted our running backs to the triple option, we'd still need an O line strong enough to string plays out to the sidelines. Frazier was recruited to work in an offensive system, a pretty rare one at that, and nobody ran it better. His was a college career, and not many colleges would have been able to showcase him. A unique talent in a unique situation, so it's hard to compare.

 

Again, good defenses and offensive lines were pretty common at Nebraska for about three decades, and some good Husker teams had largely forgotten quarterbacks (remember Craig Sundberg? Tom Sorely? Gerry Gdowski?). None of those Husker offenses had to support a defense ranked out of the Top 35, most often they were Top 10. I honestly don't know how Tommie Frazier does on a weaker team, but he came in as a freshman and appeared to kick a traditionally 9 - 3 team up another notch.

 

I say a big part of it was killer instinct. Some guys have it and it rubs off on the whole team. Other guys don't. Like Joe Dailey. Maybe he was treated unfairly, but it's not unfair to say he lacked the killer instinct that makes a Tommie Frazier. I think Martinez has some of that killer instinct himself. I just wish it would translate to his holding onto the ball.

That's what gets me about Joe Daily though. We dont know what he wouldve been had he been allowed to stay within what he knew, and what his skillset was. Obviously as it turns out he was a complete joke with no swagger whatsoever, but probably also didnt give a damn because he saw the writing on the wall that he was nothing more than a cog in the process in switching from one to the other.

 

Martinez really started to show some swagger towards the end of last season and I like it. We need more of it.

[husker_99]

Why the facepalm? Never heard of the Turmanator? KC is right, and we saw it happen.

To add to that Osborne stated a few years after he retired. That he probably would have still won the '95 title with his thrid string QB.

 

Are you serious?

 

he probably would have won it I mean that defense was so good and we had running backs that were dangerous. Look at it this way. The 2009 team could've only lost 1 game for the whole season and was capable enough of beating the longhorns and all we asked of our qb was manage the offense. He wasn't asked to do a lot.

[junior4949]

Why the facepalm? Never heard of the Turmanator? KC is right, and we saw it happen.

To add to that Osborne stated a few years after he retired. That he probably would have still won the '95 title with his thrid string QB.

 

Are you serious?

 

For all the people getting on Ganz for INT's, Dailey, and such; most forget that the QB was not the most essential in TO's offense. The QB was there more for management than anything else. Ganz more than likely would have never been in those situations when he threw INT's in TO's offense. This is one of the reasons in 94' we were so successful plugging in Berringer and Turman. Frazier was a great manager, but he did things above and beyond what TO's offense called for like the run against Florida in the NC game. We wouldn't have been as flashy in 95' without Frazier and won by as many points in most games, but we would have won the NC without Frazier. This is probably the biggest hinderance Frazier faced with regards to winning the Heisman. TO typically always had players that could play on both sides of the ball. Yes, we did upgrade speed immensely on the defensive side of the ball but we traditionally had players. Frazier was just the catalyst with the it factor that tied it all together. Frazier was the one with the contagious mentallity that helped the rest of the team get over the hump. For years, we just expected to go to a bowl game and get lit up by a Florida school.

 

Had it not been for the bloodclots, Frazier would have been drafted back then. He probably would have ended up a WR or safety, but he would have been drafted. Given the bloodclot factor, I doubt many/any teams would draft him today. Given similar circumstances to Frazier, Shoelace more than likely wouldn't have been drafted either.

[Count 'Bility]

And Frazier was a horrible passer by the way. Great decision maker, yes. Very few picks, even for the # of attempts he had, but most passes just didnt look good.

[JJ Husker]

I think much of the early discussion is ignoring the role Frazier played as a competitor. Lots of that supporting cast doesn't produce at the same level without Tommie ridin their ass. So, I don't believe it is quite as simple as taking any successive QB and saying he would have netted us the same results. Much of what TF contributed transcends simply taking snaps on a very good team. He was a major reason so many others were that good.