What is wrong with Christianity? And Christians?

[Landlord]

thanks for taking the time knapp - i couldn't be bothered

[tschu]

Religion has caused only a few wars, but its destructiveness manifests itself in other ways. It has influenced many many wars, driven persecution and massacre.

 

Such as, the Holocaust was entirely caused by religion. World War II was not.

 

Religion has been an extremely destructive force, costing us time, money, lives, productivity, you name it. There has been discrimination, persecution, people driven from their homelands, people outright killed in the name of religion. It can be enlightening at the personal level if you let it be that. But even people championing how great and peaceful and loving their religion is still exhibit clear discrimination against, say, homosexuals. And that's in a very peaceful part of a solid and mostly religiously homogeneous country.

 

Imagine if all of the time, resources, money, and power that have been given to religious institutions over the ages had gone into something productive like scientific research, funding poverty and hunger programs, or even just more work in general...society would be decades, centuries ahead. I'm sure it has enriched the lives of many, but how many enriched lives is worth the same as one life ended in the Holocaust for example? Ended in the 9/11 attacks?

 

I think that religion can be good in a vacuum, but humanity here on earth is not a vacuum.

[Landlord]

wait are we not allowed to address the negative and positive impacts of religion and point out the times that it has been an extremely beneficial force as well?

[BigRedBuster]

Religion has caused only a few wars, but its destructiveness manifests itself in other ways. It has influenced many many wars, driven persecution and massacre.

 

Such as, the Holocaust was entirely caused by religion. World War II was not.

 

Religion has been an extremely destructive force, costing us time, money, lives, productivity, you name it. There has been discrimination, persecution, people driven from their homelands, people outright killed in the name of religion. It can be enlightening at the personal level if you let it be that. But even people championing how great and peaceful and loving their religion is still exhibit clear discrimination against, say, homosexuals. And that's in a very peaceful part of a solid and mostly religiously homogeneous country.

 

Imagine if all of the time, resources, money, and power that have been given to religious institutions over the ages had gone into something productive like scientific research, funding poverty and hunger programs, or even just more work in general...society would be decades, centuries ahead. I'm sure it has enriched the lives of many, but how many enriched lives is worth the same as one life ended in the Holocaust for example? Ended in the 9/11 attacks?

 

I think that religion can be good in a vacuum, but humanity here on earth is not a vacuum.

I guess we can just forget about all the work various churches do for poor and homeless people.

[tschu]

Yes, guys, churches do good things too, and something I have posted many times

[Landlord]

You implied that all the money/resources that the church is given aren't given to things like funding poverty, and that we would be centuries ahead if the church wasn't so evil.

 

You also pointed out the good of 'enriched lives', so forgive me but it struck me as odd that you would throw in one little positive caveat of religion and not mention anything else while going all total-comprehensive mode on the bad stuff.

[tschu]

You implied that all the money/resources that the church is given aren't given to things like funding poverty, and that we would be centuries ahead if the church wasn't so evil.

 

That's a weird take on what I said. I worded my post very carefully, but apparently that doesn't matter - you'll interpret it however it fits your narrative, and your narrative is that I'm attacking our poor world religions for no reason. Look at all the good they do!

[knapplc]

Such as, the Holocaust was entirely caused by religion. World War II was not.

 

nnnnnnnnnnnNNope.

 

Six million Jews were killed during the Holocaust. To be Jewish does not mean to be a person who actively practices Judaism. Many (most?) Jews do, but it is not the ultimate defining characteristic.

 

Hitler's pogrom against the Jews was a convenience. Jews had long been the scapegoat of European nations. Many Jews were forbidden to work trades in the Middle Ages, forcing them to turn to money lending as a means of support. Thus, many major financial institutions of 19th Century Europe were owned or controlled by Jews. Jews were despised because all moneylenders are despised, and that hate served as a useful tool when Hitler needed a scapegoat to blame for all Germany's woes in the 1930s. Those woes included the loss of World War I and the resulting Treaty of Versailles, which was hugely disadvantageous to Germany (blamed by many of the Allies as the prime mover in the aftermath of WWI). Germany's economy was a shambles, as was the nation, and when the Great Depression hit, Germany suffered more than most. In the midst of that suffering, with national pride deeply wounded, Hitler seized upon old Jewish hatred and dumped the blame for everything on them.

 

Up to five million non-Jews were killed during the Holocaust. Hitler was intent on creating the Master Race, and the Jews had no place there. But it wasn't just the Jews, it was the Poles, the Slavs, the Franks... any non-Aryan ethnicity was destined to run afoul of the Master Race plan. That included, but was not limited to, gypsies, the mentally impaired, the physically impaired, Blacks/Hispanics/sundry other natives of other nations, etc. THE WHOLE WORLD was destined for the gas chamber had Hitler won the war.

 

The Holocaust wasn't just about Jews. It was genocide, pure and simple.

[zoogs]

Societies do bad things. It's human nature. It's hard to disentangle religion given its prominent role in society, but it would not be fair to suggest that without religion, these things wouldn't happen -- even when they are done in the name of religion.

 

I do think there are common threads and forces for goodness, whether it's charity, peace, compassion, and so on. Like with the bad, these are also human nature and transcend religious and cultural boundaries. Not being religious does not absolve you from being equally susceptible to all the natural pitfalls, and being religious bestows neither the credit of charities done, nor the blame of evils committed, on religion's behalf.

[Landlord]

If I say, "imagine if the stuff tschu said in his posts was actually intelligent and worthwhile", I feel like pretty much everyone would take it to mean I am implying that your posts are a stupid waste of time.

[NUance]

Societies do bad things. It's human nature. It's hard to disentangle religion given its prominent role in society, but it would not be fair to suggest that without religion, these things wouldn't happen -- even when they are done in the name of religion.

 

I do think there are common threads and forces for goodness, whether it's charity, peace, compassion, and so on. Like with the bad, these are also human nature and transcend religious and cultural boundaries. Not being religious does not absolve you from being equally susceptible to all the natural pitfalls, and being religious bestows neither the credit of charities done, nor the blame of evils committed, on religion's behalf.

 

I agree with the first part of the last sentence, but the bolded part isn't really stating a complementary idea. Don't religious people often do things they wouldn't do if it weren't for religion? Take missionaries, for example. It's doubtful they would travel to remote, often dangerous, parts of the globe if they were not religious. So I think you CAN credit some of the charities done, and blame some of the evils committed, on religion. Or perhaps I misunderstood what you meant?

[tschu]

Landlord, you could list all of the actual tangible, quantifiable good that religion does, and we could compare it against the outright bad and against the opportunity cost of that time/money/resource going to other things and decide whether it is worthwhile or not. I lean to it being not worthwhile. That is what I'm saying. I am not attacking Christianity or Christians, or any particular religion. I am imagining a world in which religion never existed.

[knapplc]

Let's list the bad things religion does. I want to see this list of actual factual intentional harm religion causes.

[tschu]

That's very hard to do knapp. An exhaustive study might take a lifetime. Similarly, a study of the good that it does might take a lifetime.

[tschu]

A starting point of the criticisms http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_religion